[advanced101]

The image is a bit deceiving. I have an open floor plan house. Behind the speakers is another room, about 15 feet to the wall. Seating position is 15 feet from the speakers. Behind the seating position it is 20 feet to the back wall.

The speakers have more than enough breathing room behind them. I can't pull them further into the room, closer to the listening position. The beams next to the speakers are just going to have to be dealt with.

I am graciously accepting fsimms offer to listen to hear his ss10s next weekend.

[audiotom]

great on the SS10 demo!
fun

how big are both rooms and how wide is the opening the stereo sits in?

If you didn't have the sub there you could pull speakers closer together and off the side walls, making the issue with passive radiators a mute point

I'm curious on Jim's thoughts on ideal and tolerable offset of passive radiators to a wall or boundary
I'm sure other's have experimented

[advanced101]

I understand the positioning isn't perfect but I can't move them out anymore, it would obstruct the walking path. It isn't a big deal, plenty of custom options involving front firing only drivers.

The width of the room is approx. 25'

The next goal is to decide how much better the SS mid is. That'll point me in the right direction.

[nostubeman]

I recommend you audition the new Goldenear Triton Ones @ $5K per pair. I've had the triton 2's for a couple of years now and I'm really happy with them.

[jsalk]

Sometimes it is hard to predict how a speaker will perform in a room where placement is not necessarily ideal.  But here is something to consider...

Down-firing subwoofers have been around for quite a while and perform quite well.  Usually, the drivers are about 3" from the floor on these designs - not much clearance.  The passive radiators in the SoundScapes produce only the deepest bass in the system.  They take over where the woofers drop off.  So, in a real sense, they act much the same as a subwoofer would if the woofers were in a sealed cabinet and rolled off early.  Frankly, the fact that there is not much space between the speakers and the wall sections doesn't concern me all that much.

Bass frequencies cause the most problems when they are generated close to the corners of rooms.  Bass piles up in the corners and things get "boomy."  That is the reason you will often need bass traps in the corners to get things under control. But, in the case of the photos, the area to the rear of the speakers is open.  They are not in a corner and there are no sidewalls in front of the speakers either.  So there is a good possibility the SS8's would work, and work well, in that setup.  Just a thought...

- Jim 

[Austin08]

The SS series will take advantage of the space behind with its open back. You will have excellent soundstage depth. On the other hand, you room is big so E3 with its dual 8" rythimk subs will handle the bass better.

[advanced101]

Update 7/8/14:

Listened to three speakers this weekend.  B&W 804, 805 and Salk SS10.

B&W 804, 805:
These speakers were auditioned at Modia in Houston.  Driven by a mid-level Denon receiver using a DVD player as a disc reader directly into the receiver.  The room that the speakers were in was awful.  The room was 15' x 10' the speakers along the long wall and directly behind that listening position was glass wall.  I have no idea who is designing these listening rooms at my local audio stores but it is frustrating.

B&W 805: Great stand mount speaker. The mid-range is smooth and detailed, one of the best I have heard.  The highs had quite a bit of sparkle, due to the diamond tweeter.  The highs were very detailed but rose above the mid-range a bit too much.  The highs were a bit fatiguing.  There are two reasons I can blame for the fatigue.  One, the speakers were firing directly at my shoulders.  If I played with positioning I could have removed some of that harshness.  Two, the glass wall behind the speakers.  No doubt, this caused a lot of issues with reflections.  Bass was great for a stand mount.  The speaker didn't try to extend itself beyond its capabilities.  The mid-bass was near perfect and the bass rose and decayed with perfect timing.  There wasn't the slam of a tower or sub but with a sub these are hard speakers to beat.  Imaging and sound stage was great.  The sound flowed directly from in between the speakers.  These are gorgeous speakers.  Call me a sucker for "Audio Jewelry" but the piano black was beautiful and that nautilus tweeter is just cool to look at.  I didn't like the binding posts.  They were a nice chrome finish but the screw itself was smooth and difficult to grip.  If using spades or bare wire you would need some sort of rubber grip to get a good connection.  All-in-all a great BM speaker for $5000.  I would to have loved to hear these in a better room with better electronics.  I have a soft spot for B&W since they were my first hi-fi speaker and I like their house sound.  The diamond tweeter was a bit fatiguing but I'm going to have to try to hear it again in a different room.  When I was driving home my ears were ringing a little. 
Although I said this was a great BM speaker for $5K I believe that an ID brand could do better for the same money, this is a comparison I will be making soon.

B&W 804:  Not much of a review but these speakers were nowhere as good as the 805.  The bump in mid-bass was dramatic and the speaker overall was not coherent.  After two songs I had enough.  My GF even recognized the difference very quickly.  The speaker had the mid-range and highs of the 805 but the poor bass handling ruined the speaker.

Salk SS10: Auditioned at Bob's Condo (fsimms).  I have been debating on how I was going to write this review for the past couple of days.  First off I would like to thank Bob for his hospitality.  Inviting a stranger into your home to listen to your $20k system takes a lot of trust.  But honesty above all else.

We fired up the system and my first thought was... What is going on?  The sound is dull, smeared, distorted/noisy, and unbalanced.
Something isn't right, to me.  So I turned down the music and started talking to Bob about his setup.  I thought...ok... I know what I like, let me change some things. 
1-First change was installing the back panel over the mid-range.  This cleared up the smearing. Bob's speakers are less than 2' from his front wall.  My thinking is that I am hearing the rear sound too close in time with the direct sound.
2-Second change was setting the tweeter attenuator from -3db to 0db.  This gave life to music, the highs starting to become more prominent. 
3-Third change was figuring out where that high frequency noise was coming from.  I traced it to an amp in the other room hooked up to another set of speakers.  Once that was cleared up I could pin point more high frequency noise coming from the speakers.  We ended up determining it was from his PS3 that we were using to play CDs.  We changed the input to a high resolution internet format. 
4-Fourth, we had to get some tubes out of the mix.  Bob has a tube stage at some point in his chain.  We bypassed the tubes. 
5-Lastly, The balance was off, the left speaker was louder and sounded a bit different.  I noticed that the left speaker was firing directly at my left shoulder and the right speaker was firing 2’ to my right in the seated position.  Since I wasn’t going to move this man’s speakers around we changed the balance level to favor the right speaker by I believe a .5-1db.  This fixed the level but the speakers still sounded a tad different, since the left was firing directly at me.  No big deal.
After all these changes I was told that I was the "Anti-Bob", haha.  I turned to him and said "So you bought one of the most accurate speakers only to add things that distort the sound?"  Bob chuckled and said "Yes".
My preferences were completely opposite.  Bob grew up listening to records and tubes.  I grew up in the Digital era.  Records and tubes are not nostalgic and comforting to me.  I recognize these sounds as noise and pollutants to the signal.  To each their own.  The reasoning I am bringing all of this up is not to be unappreciative of Bob’s hospitality but rather to stress the importance of auditioning speakers on your own.  Do not listen to what people on the internet have to say... at all.  One set of speakers can sound completely different to two sets of ears and even on two different setups in the same system!  So now that the system was setup to my liking we can review:
First we listened to some Pink Floyd.  I use Pink Floyd to gauge how well the speaker places and separates sounds.  There are also a lot of complex electronic sounds mixed in with voices and actual instruments.  The speaker did well.  The layers were placed where they needed to be.  The different guitars were distinguishable.  Acoustic guitars were full bodied with very clean mid bass.  Electric guitars were exciting and the highs had a touch of sparkle.  Vocals were accurate but not clinical.  Next we moved onto Coheed and Cambria.  They are a progressive rock band who are fast, and complex.  I was impressed by how well the speaker was able to create a nice soundstage and separate the instruments.  Each instrument individually was exciting to listen to and the overall presentation was enjoyable. 
After we were finished I was left wanting more.  I could have spent hours trying different music.  Learning new information about the tracks that I have been listening to for the past 20 years.  This is what it is about…the music. 
Nothing about the sound stands out.  I guess this is how it should be.  Any of the speakers that I auditioned that had something that stuck out ended up being an issue.  Most of the time they try so hard to bring you in with striking highs that it ends up creating fatigue.  With the RAAL you can sense that there is details beyond what you can interpret.  I believe this creates that “air” that people mention.  Call me a RAAL fan-boy.
We weren’t really able to test the bass.  Bob lives in a condo and we auditioned the speakers mid-day on a Saturday.  I would expect that it would be great for a full range speaker, but I can’t comment.
The finish on the speakers are nice, I believe it was Ziricote.  I am impressed by the top head of the speaker, how complex it is.  It is shocking that an ID manufacturer can create a speaker with this much cabinet detail.  This is a big speaker, much bigger than measured dimensions would suggest.  It definitely creates a presence in the room.  And this leads me to the room.  This speaker really needs room to breathe.  I would imagine at least 4’ off of a wall.  One of the main benefits is the open mid-range and if you are close to a wall I don’t think you get the intended “ambience” affect.
Overall, the speaker sounds a lot like my HT2-TLs.  The highs are clean, airy, detailed and non-fatiguing.  The mid-range is accurate, fast, and detailed.  Although the SS10 gets the nod for accuracy.  With the right electronics I’m predicting this speaker could be create the last degree of accuracy.  I could tell that the speaker’s capabilities were not in-sight.  It is this head-room that separates the HT2 from the SS10.
 I’m sure it would do better in the bass category, but as I mentioned, I couldn’t test the limits.
If I didn’t have the upgrade bug I wouldn’t be rushing out to trade my pair of HT2s in for the SS10.  Is the SS10 better? Definitely, but I believe you need the room and the electronics to make the difference worthwhile.  This shows how good the HT2-TLs really are for the average audiophile with average gear and an average room. 
But who are we kidding?  Who wants to be average? I want that Accuton in my system!

[advanced101]

The SS series will take advantage of the space behind with its open back. You will have excellent soundstage depth. On the other hand, you room is big so E3 with its dual 8" rythimk subs will handle the bass better.

My thought is that the Dual 8" Rythmik Subs is a winner.  This is something that I am considering at the moment to handle bass for music.  Something with the RAAL, Accuton and the Dual 8" Rythmik Subs sounds nice.

I am in talks with Jim on having a set made of Dual 8" Rythmik Subs made. 
I found a deal that I couldn't pass up on a set of Clearwave 7R (They use the RAAL and Accuton).  I am going to compare the 7R next to my HT2 and compare them.  If I don't like the 7R then they will be sold.  If I like them then I will use them for a while until I have my next dose of upgraditis and have Jim build me a set of Standmounts consisting on an MTM of Accuton and RAAL.

If I audition something this weekend that I absolutely fall in love with then everything will be sold.  But that is the way it goes.

I will keep a separate sub for movies to add weight.

[Austin08]

Advanced101,

Your though about space behind the SS10 was similar to my though when I got delivered and setting up my SS8. I have to play around with positioning, polly fill and open/close the open back.... I found that my SS8s is sound best at 6fts away from the back speakers to the wall with big diffuser direct behind each speaker. IMO, With toe in, sound more focus but a bit inboundary soundstage-great for something like rock music.  Fire straight without any toe in- great bigger sounstage and perfect set up for Jazz. Just my 2cts.

[advanced101]

Advanced101,

Your though about space behind the SS10 was similar to my though when I got delivered and setting up my SS8. I have to play around with positioning, polly fill and open/close the open back.... I found that my SS8s is sound best at 6fts away from the back speakers to the wall with big diffuser direct behind each speaker. IMO, With toe in, sound more focus but a bit inboundary soundstage-great for something like rock music.  Fire straight without any toe in- great bigger sounstage and perfect set up for Jazz. Just my 2cts.

Bob did have diffusers behind his speakers, but I'm not sure if diffusion is very helpful when it is 2' away from a source.  I remember talking to someone at Gik about this a while back.  There are certain diffusers that are designed for close proximity scattering (ie. meant to be placed behind your head when your couch is against a wall).  I can't recall what type he had.

I would imagine 6' from a wall would be even better 

As I said I wasn't going to move that man's speakers around, but I would to have loved the chance at playing with the toe-in.  I have my HT2s firing straight ahead.  But I often listen to the speakers in the back part of the house 30-40' away.

[DMurphy]

Thanks very much for the report.  The only nit I would pick concerns your belief that the 10's won't operate properly with the back open when it's near a rear wall.  I never had a problem with the 10's or my very similar Philharmonic 3's in that regard.  The back of the upper cabinet will still be away from the rear wall even if the bass cabinet is right up against it.  However--I do think you need a fairly large space overall for the 10's to work well in open mode.   My room is quite large, with a lot of space to the sides.  The enhanced ambiance and sound stage depth is quite evident even with the speakers near the rear.   Fortunately, everyone can experiment and decide for themselves, since you have the option of varying the amount of fill or closing off the rear opening entirely.  Too bad you couldn't test out the bass--my neighbors and golden retriever will attest to the depth and clarity of the deep bass response. 

[advanced101]

The side boundaries could have affected the open backed sound too.  One speaker was 6' from a glass door, the other was 10'+ from the nearest wall.

[fsimms]

Thanks again for coming by my condo and letting me share my passion.  It was a lot of fun for me.

The Anti-Bob comment was that you did not prefer tubes, vinyl and open back.  It was interesting to hear a different view to mine.  After you left, I remembered that I angled the speakers a bit to a point between the two chairs and about fifteen feed behind as I don’t always listen to music alone.  I listen to music with my lizard brain and like what moves me emotionally. 

Thanks also for writing such a detailed report. It was a fun read for me.

Bob

[sfox7076]

All this points out to me that recreating your exact room scenario and/or ideal conditions at any speaker audition is basically impossible, so the audition is important to determine voicing, but that is about all in my opinion.  Most other issues (like room placement and room reflections) are impossible to recreate in someone else's listening room.  Even if you can get that sort of done, electronics become an issue.  Not so much perfect problems, but more tube vs. SS vs. hybrid, etc.  For instance, I wouldn't use a denon receiver and dvd player to do any critical evaluation. 

It reaffirms that when I buy I gauge what I want from reading reviews of a lot of speakers/electronics that use the components that I think I would like based on the various discussions, looking at measurements, and also hoping to get to a dealer that will let you do a home audition or, in the case of Jim Salk and Frank Van Alstine, one's that have a no questions asked 30 day return policy.  It pushes me further and further from main stream stuff to more bespoke options.  I am hoping to get a new set of monoblock tube amps built this fall on a bespoke basis because I know what I want.  Will they be perfect in my room?  Not sure.  But I will say this, they will be better than what I could get commercially for double the price.  The reason?  My input and needs are taken into consideration.  That is also what you get with Jim.  I will take one of his speakers over a B&W any day of the week.  Call Jim.  Talk to him.  You have listened to a lot of speakers.  get in touch with Dennis Murphy.  See what they can offer concept wise.  Jim is willing to think outside the box.  He can help you deal with these issues, and that really sounds like more of what you need.  Components you like and someone who will listen, think about your needs and make a recommendation, not some guy that is in an audio shop, working on commission and doing a hard sell on you.

Also, can you explain the amp in the other room issue?  I am not sure I get it.

[advanced101]

Also, can you explain the amp in the other room issue?  I am not sure I get it.

It was a high frequency whine.  I have heard this same sound from other amps in the past.  In fact, I have a little Onkyo IntAmp that does the same thing.  Drives me nuts

[sfox7076]

Oh, so not from the speakers, just from the other room?

[advanced101]

Oh, so not from the speakers, just from the other room?

Yes, there was another room behind the speakers.  The amp was approximately 15' behind me.

[advanced101]

That is also what you get with Jim.  I will take one of his speakers over a B&W any day of the week.  Call Jim.  Talk to him.  You have listened to a lot of speakers.  get in touch with Dennis Murphy.  See what they can offer concept wise.  Jim is willing to think outside the box.  He can help you deal with these issues, and that really sounds like more of what you need.  Components you like and someone who will listen, think about your needs and make a recommendation, not some guy that is in an audio shop, working on commission and doing a hard sell on you.

I am working with him right now on the subs.  But I am hunting for my favorite mid-range and tweeter combo.  So far the RAAL and Accuton combo is my favorite.  Just enjoying the hunt at the moment.

[Nuance]

I am working with him right now on the subs.  But I am hunting for my favorite mid-range and tweeter combo.  So far the RAAL and Accuton combo is my favorite.  Just enjoying the hunt at the moment.

The hunt can be as fun as anything else.  Thanks for starting this thread - it's been a great read. 

[advanced101]

Two Speakers to report on from this weekend:

B&W 802: I listened to this pair at a Magnolia BB in a treated room driven by probably $20K in Mcintosh electronics, GF came along.  She is my new auditioning buddy. 
First thing we listened to was John Mayer.  I picked this since she is a fan and I am trying to demo some music she likes.  The first song came on and I turned to her and she had a smile on her face and was said this sounds really good.  The highs were nice but lacked the sparkle of the 805s, so we played with toe-in.  The speaker likes to be facing directly towards the listener.  This improved the highs and they were accurate but lacked a little magic.  No fatigue in the highs as experienced with the 805s.  The mid-range is where this speaker is magical.  The mid-range was so smooth and listenable.  A bit laid back for my taste though.  I felt that the house sound of B&W covered up a lot of the details of the recording.  This might be a good thing for poor recordings but it still isn’t my flavor.  I might be able to attribute the lack of sparkle and over-warmth to the Mcintosh gear but I wasn’t able to test it with anything else.  So although the mid-range was very, very nice, it wasn’t my style. 
The bass is where we were both disappointed.  The 802s have two 8” drivers that seem to produce all the bass that is needed for music but I don’t feel any kick.  I hear the low frequencies but feel nothing.  This is unacceptable to us since I am looking for a full range speaker and would not be able to fit a subwoofer in if I were to use the two speakers.  Plus, for $15k, I shouldn’t have to use subwoofers to get what I want.  We demoed some rap and electronic music with heavy bass.
The aesthetics of the speakers were top notch.  The speakers are only offered in Piano Black and Rosenut, outside of custom car type finishes.  I would like something a bit classier.   
All-in-all a great speaker, I can see why it is highly regarded.  I would to have loved to hear the 800 which I hear has much better bass.  With better bass I could imagine a near perfect speaker for anyone who like the B&W sound.

Clearwave 7R: I picked this speaker up for a great price (60% off MSRP) from Audiogon.  I was interested in it since it had a 7” Accuton and a RAAL, something I predicted would be nice.  I spent many hours this weekend tweaking the speaker to integrate into my setup, it was a tedious operation and much more finicky than my HT2-TL.  What I ended up with was the speakers facing directly forward, ports open, running full range with my sub-crossed in at 80Hz. 
One thing I noticed right off the bat is how much power this speaker needs.  It has 83 db/m sensitivity and really requires every last bit from my AVA 400r.  Once turned up the speaker starts to sing but I can tell is still pretty limited. 
The speaker has the sound I am looking for.  A bit of top end sparkle with tons of clarity and detail, non-fatiguing.  What really makes this speaker special is the Accuton Mid-range.  It has the same detail as the SS-10 that I heard.  Every layer of detail in the music is uncovered, even the breaths that the singers take.  Very exciting.  The downside is since I am only working with one 7” driver and a challenging sensitivity, the dynamics have decreased compared to my HT-2Ls.  The speakers can’t quite rock as hard.  I would imagine having an MTM design with two Accutons would give me everything I want, only more of it.  One thing I am going to have to play around with is the HP filter.  I tried my 80Hz Marchand crossover in the mix but then lost the mid-bass that is there when running full range.  This is something I am going to have to keep playing with. 
The bass is impressive for a stand-mount but I will have to integrate subs into the equation, which has been my intention since I am going with the Salk Rythmik dual 8”s. 
I would love to say that this is it, I have found the solution.  I would have the highs, mid and bass that I want with this package.  But, the lack of dynamics is leaving me wanting more.  I have the same feeling that I had after hearing the SS10 and that is it has a ton of capability but getting there would require work.  Good thing this a hobby and I enjoy it. 
First thing I would like to change is the amp.  I need more power, and a lot of it.  The AVA400r is a great amp and has a nice sound to it.  My only gripe is that the background isn’t silent.  I’m guessing I’m hearing the tube stage inside of the amp and since the amp is maxed out it is more prevalent than it was with my HT2-TL.  I’m sure someone will come on here and prove me my theory incorrect.  I will be looking for an amp providing somewhere in the neighborhood of 400+w/ch at 8.  I want to be able to push the speaker to full tilt plus have plenty of peace of mind headroom.  If this doesn’t do the trick I am going to need to have an MTM built.  For now the 7R stays until I find it won’t fit my wants.
I am excited about the Salk Rythmik Dual 8” subs.  They will take me one step closer to my goal.  I still am unsure of how I am going to hook it up.  I need to be able to filter the HP on the speakers.  I’m going to talk to Jim to see where he recommends that I do this.  I’m also nervous about making any decisions before I see what you guys are doing to your Exotica IIIs.  I would hate to find out you guys are doing some custom things that I haven’t considered :p