Are cables important?

Carlman · « **Reply #40 on:** 19 Feb 2003, 08:52 pm »

My point was that *to me in my limited experience* the PBJ is neutral and detailed. I should have made that more clear.. because I know PBJ is not the best cable out there but, it is the best I've found for the money so far. I just thought that flaming someone's description of a $50 cable was a bit extreme when comparing to a $350 cable.

Thanks for the tip on the Canare, though... I'll give it a shot if I can find it.

-Carl

Marbles · « **Reply #41 on:** 19 Feb 2003, 09:10 pm »

As long as we are stating what we think the best under $100 cables are, the Outlaw cables (last time I checked no return policy though) and the DIYCable kits should be on most peoples lists to at least look into.

ABEX · « **Reply #42 on:** 19 Feb 2003, 09:32 pm »

In my travels cables make alot of difference.I have seen them to, in some situations, make or break a system by making a system sound dark and closed in or making a system sound clean and spacious.

The Digital cable that I just got form Wayne at Bolder opened up the soundstage further and took away the veiling I was having on vocals.I was using Canare LV77S which had a signature of veiling .I could not use it between my CDP and preamp at all.

IC's are more important than Speaker Cable for testing. because they are closer to the source.If you test cables it is best to start from the source to get a hearing of what type of signature they display.

The OTA cable I am using is very fast.I have it throughout my system with the exception of the Digital cable.

Another thing I am trying is Cryo treated cable to see weather there is a marked diff..That I shall recieve next week.I will be posting results in a few weeks.

I am also waiting to see weather I should wire my speaker's with it internally.Big decission.
===========Experiment============
Experiment to see what the differences in your system will be.Start by nothing ove $100 .Buy 3 different IC's and see what happens in your system.

Beleden DIY's will not cost more than $50 for speaker cables.

KnuConceptz will get you 10' of speaker cable and 2 IC's for like $40.

Zip cord is alot less.

Silver Cables-need to try some.

You could experiment with Connectors also.This I am just starting to do .Need to get some Cardas.WBT's are expensive and Eichmanns are right behind them.Eichmans seem good though and if they add less coloration than WBT's they are a steal.

EProvenzano · « **Reply #43 on:** 19 Feb 2003, 11:06 pm »

I'm sorry to keep touting this cable but IMO not enough people have tried it. This cable was a real eye opener for me and I've realized that it is simply unbeatable for the price. I'm speaking of the CVH design Fine Silver IC. If you use only top quality parts the cable is still less than $100/m pair.
I've compared it to offerings from Kimber, Cardas, MIT and JPS who's cables ranged from $250 - $550 and NONE of these cables equalled the performance of the CVH IC, not even considering Price/Performance.
IMO cable DIY offers the most return on your investment and time, compared to other DIY projects, because I think that most Boutique cable offerings are grossly over priced.
Do yourself a favor and build a set of these cables.
BR,
EP

audioengr · « **Reply #44 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 01:33 am »

audiojerry wrote:

Quote

audioengr, your statement suggests that cables should not be used as tone controls, which implies that cables will only 'color' the way one's components sound. I see a big problem with this viewpoint because it seems to be based on the premise that the rest of one's system has a completely neutral sound.

There is no such thing as a neutral sounding component; let alone a neutral sounding system. Different cables have different tonal qualities, just like any other component. Achieving system synergy is based on one's personal tastes and expectations, and the way a cable interacts will vary depending on the other components it is paired with.

Some cables, actually most cables color the sound and most add to the sibilance. What I am saying is that if you have neutral cables that are not sibilant, then you can identify the weak components and you should eliminate them first, not compensate by switching cables.

I disagree: most components, particularly good SS are very neutral (frequency response). Some have more sibilance and phase-shift than others and amps in particular can have trouble driving difficult speaker loads. This is where speaker-amp synergy comes into play. Cables should not "interact", they should be transparent.

audioengr · « **Reply #45 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 01:43 am »

Carlman wrote:

Quote

OK, So Empirical sells IC's in the hundreds of dollars... they better be awesome! My $50 PBJ is neutral and detailed... best I've ever heard. Want to flame me, too? I'm not going to spend more than $100 on an interconnect. So, using adjectives within a frame of reference (sub $100) is perfectly acceptable to me. Comparing a cable that STARTS in the $350+ range ... is not a fair comparison to me.

They are awesome. Our only competition, IMO, is Acoustic Zen. I have PBJ's only as a reference - I cannot listen to them.

This is like the difference between Onkyo and Mark Levinson. I make only world-class performing cables. I am not interested in being #2. Even my old obsolete clearance cables will make your PBJ's sound sick...

ABEX · « **Reply #46 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 08:40 am »

Audio Eng. wrote:
"This is like the difference between Onkyo and Mark Levinson."

Wonder what the dudes over at "Sound & Vision" BB would think about that!

----------------------
Correction in last post:
IC's are better to use for testing than Speaker Cables in my system.

audiojerry · « **Reply #47 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 05:16 pm »

audioengr wrote:

Quote

disagree: most components, particularly good SS are very neutral (frequency response).

I guess we are hung up a little on semantics. 'Neutral' in terms of frequency response, or 'neutral' in terms of the overall character of an amp's sound is still a subjective term. It almost seems as if you are using the term 'neutral' as an absolute, and that everyone can agree on what 'neutral' represents, like 2 + 2 = 4. If you mean 'neutral' to be the closest possible representation of 'real life', nothing comes close, and every component, wire included, alters the final result. I've heard many components that have been regarded as neutral, and all too often, this 'neutral' sounding component provided nothing more than a dull, dry, and uninspiring presentation of the music. Maybe 'neutral' = 'dull'.

If you believe that a well designed solid state amp offers the best opportunity to capture the live event as accurately as possible, I won't argue with what you believe, but you shouldn't presume that everyone else's interpretation should align with your own personal bias.

This of course, has nothing to do with your ability to design a good cable.
I'd even be willing to try one of your designs myself. But I'm leery of even trying, because if I ended up not thinking it's the best cable I ever heard, you might think there is something seriously wrong with me or my system. I haven't checked your website or your policy, but I'd be surprised if you offered a trial or return option because no one would ever think of sending it back.

Brad · « **Reply #48 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 05:52 pm »

From the EmpiricalAudio website

"Clarity7 Speaker Cables are offered with a 30-day unconditional return policy.
If the cables are not cosmetically damaged, electrically altered or abused,
they can be returned for a full refund within 30 days of date of original shipment.
Customer pays return shipping. Refunds will be mailed within 5 working days of
product return. "

BlackCat · « **Reply #49 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 06:51 pm »

Maybe you guys can put me on your list for the cable tryout? It doesn't look like my evaluation would be quite fair however, since I note that by the time all you guys eval the cables, and judging by where most of you live, they would be cryo'd due to your weather by the time they could get to Arizona.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #50 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 07:12 pm »

Jerry has brought up one of the underlying marketing principles of not only high end cables, buy a lot of high end products as well. The deliberate attempt to make someone feel inferior if you don't manage to appreciate their product.
Years ago my distributor in Taiwan had me "evaluate" a set of designer power cords. At first the designer has me on the phone and is telling me in exhaustive detail how the annealing of the wires makes a sonic difference, while I am sitting thinking to myself, "the patient needs to get back on their medication". I get the power cords a few days later and plug them both in to my power amps. I note that they are not to flexible, and I am hoping I manage not to break them. I start listening and I start hearing things break up when I start pumping some real energy into the woofers. I then change back to my standard IEC power cords and repeat the same without changing level. Everything sounds just fine. In the middle of this I get a phone call from someone in Texas who asks me how is everything going. I tell him I can't hear any difference between the two except when some real energy hits the woofers. I am told by this gentleman that this due to my system not being up to par. I politely say goodbye and hang up the phone.
Next I decide to take apart one of the power cords and I find the following.
The wire is approximately 20 AWG solid core, insulated with masking tape.
I then get on the phone to the designer and proceed to ream him a new asshole, and remind him that some consideration for customer safety is important unless you like being sued.
I then contact my distributor in Taiwan and recommend sheilded IEC power cords, so he will not be liable for his customers safety.
Personally I don't treat customers this way. The customer has thirty days to make up their mind. Period. However, I have been known to ask some of the critics I have dealt with over the years some very pointed questions.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #51 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 07:17 pm »

It appears that Black Cat has some issues in dealing with cables coming from the great white north. I'll have you know sir that the cables are soaked in chicken fat for 5,000 hours, and hand rubbed clean by the purest of virgins before they are exposed to the cold. Not bad for 49.95

ABEX · « **Reply #52 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 07:25 pm »

soaked in chicken fat for 5,000 hours, and hand rubbed clean by the purest of virgins before they are exposed to the cold.

Good to see that there are some that still have a sense of humor.

Just one question?Is the Chicken Fat from Virgin Chick's?
-----------------------------------
Abex

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #53 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 07:29 pm »

The sexual status of the chickens is unknown. However the chicken fat that I use is kosher. This should immediately tell you that we have cables blessed by a higher authority.

nathanm · « **Reply #54 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 07:51 pm »

I guess that's why you don't see too many hifi products that have been tested by UL or the other organizations; they'd probably fail! (although I've heard that the UL guys who monitor such tests are somewhat of a joke in themselves, but that's another topic)

Actual masking tape in there? Sheesh! At least those Maplesomethingorother cables are honest; you can see for yourself it's nothing more than a hair of copper in a plastic bag! Heh!

Also, I'm a vegetarian so is there a non-chicken fat version available?

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #55 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 08:04 pm »

Nathan: I'll have to consult with the virgins to see if they will consider dealing with tofu.

nathanm · « **Reply #56 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 08:29 pm »

To hell with cables, ask the virgins if they will consider dealing with ME.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #57 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 08:36 pm »

Nathan: If I did that then I wouldn't have the purest of virgins making my cables now would I.
I'm getting quite an education here; I am now beginning to realize that high end audio is only cover for lackanookie. What was I thinking??????
Well Nathan; before I ask the virgins about dealing with you they need to know the following. DOES YOUR EQUIPMENT MEASURE UP?

audiojerry · « **Reply #58 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 08:46 pm »

I keep my equipment on 24/7, so it's always up

Brad · « **Reply #59 on:** 20 Feb 2003, 08:59 pm »

Dan,

Don't forget, Nathan has become quite a d-i-y'er

The virgins might interfere with his, um, handiness.