[ricmon]

Hello folks it's been a while since I've been hanging out on the "Circle".  Now I need the input of my fellow AC-er's.  The question is to replace the Project RM9.1 or is it a good idea to upgrade the tonearm to say something in the $1,500 to $2,500 dollar range.  Is the basic plinth and bearing design good enough to support this approach?

Ric

[neobop]

Hi Ric,
That's a tricky question.  Is there an armboard on there or is the hole(s) drilled directly into the chassis?  That's a Linn type mount?  The table design doesn't look like it would support a much longer arm.  There are some good drop-in replacements like an Alphason 100, Zeta or Ittock etc. but I think you might be wiser to replace the table if you want to upgrade.  Arm mounting distance is 1mm longer than Linn.  That silly little mm could be a source of frustration for alignment.  Depends on the cart. 

The 9.1 looks like a pretty good table.  If you upgrade, whether you keep it as a second table or sell it, it's a lot easier to deal with if it has the arm.  If you get another table you might want something other than what will fit on the 9.1 
neo

[jimdgoulding]

You can save yourself a grand from the price of the Alphason or Zeta by buying from their manufacturer, Jelco.  Their importer is in Canada.  Just google Jelco 750.

[neobop]

Hi Jim,
Jelco didn't make Alphason or Zeta.  Both were made in England. 

Nice looking table there.

neo

[jimdgoulding]

Hi Jim,
Jelco didn't make Alphason or Zeta.  Both were made in England. 

Nice looking table there.

neo

Not as certain as I could be about the Zeta, but I think you are mistaken about the Alphason.  Research em.  I've spoken with their Canadian importer, also.  Thanks for checkin out me table.  It's a rather old Micro Seiki BL91.  Massive it is but with a spring suspended motor.  Clever buggers. 

Two minutes later.  I did not see Alphason with my search, after all, but do believe I read that somewhere.  Does the Alphason have a removable headshell?  Think they made Oracle and Sumiko arms, no?  Plus Linn.

[BobRex]

The Alphason was not made by Jelco, Alphason arms were made in England.  I have an early example, imported directly by Mel Schilling at the time.  Trust me, there isn't a single part that's common to anything Jelco made.

The headshell is stamped from the arm tube and as such is a single piece.  Not removeable.

[bacobits1]

Hey some people will put a real nice Audio Mods arm on a lower Rega base model, not I, for obvious reasons.
As far as the Project table replace it. Don't change the arm.
Or keep it....get an external Phono upgrade.
Just my opinion if it were mine and I had the $$ to spend.

[neobop]

Not as certain as I could be about the Zeta, but I think you are mistaken about the Alphason.  Research em.  I've spoken with their Canadian importer, also.  Thanks for checkin out me table.  It's a rather old Micro Seiki BL91.  Massive it is but with a spring suspended motor.  Clever buggers. 

Two minutes later.  I did not see Alphason with my search, after all, but do believe I read that somewhere.  Does the Alphason have a removable headshell?  Think they made Oracle and Sumiko arms, no?  Plus Linn.

Jim,
I own an Alphason 100 S and I used to have a Zeta on my Goldmund.  Neither has a removable headshell.  The Alphason has a one piece titanium arm tube and eff mass of 11g.  Zeta has a big clamp-like bearing housing and a straight aluminum arm tube with eff mass of 16g.  While the Alphason is more versatile and a laudable performer,  Zeta was designed for MCs and was known for a slightly more romantic but detailed SQ with exceptional bass.  Both were manufactured by their own companies and both companies are now gone.  The arms were $1K each in the '80s and used ones go for that today.

The reason I mentioned them - they're drop-in replacements (upgrades) for Linn arms.  Linn has a unique mounting pattern.  The main hole is centered at 211mm.  No problem there, but there's a 6 hole pattern for mounting bolts around the periphery of the main hole.  Only 3 holes are used, but it can be either the front 3 or back 3 depending on the arm and a real PIA to make a DIY armboard.  That's not exactly Ric's problem though.  From what I've read, the table is already set-up for Linn pattern @ 212mm.  Most arms today (like Rega) have mounting distance of 222mm.  I don't know if they will fit on the table or even if there's an armboard. 

Over the years Jelco has made roughly 100 million arms (    for just about everybody.  It seems that way.  Seriously, they make them to order and the quality reflects what the purchasing company is willing to pay for.  They range everywhere from budget entry level to high quality.   I don't know about Oracle arms, but the other companies you mentioned have Jelco made arms.   The current line with Jelco name seems like an excellent value.
neo

[BobM]

Or keep it....get an external Phono upgrade.
Just my opinion if it were mine and I had the $$ to spend.

Typically, the phono stage is the weak link in any analogue setup. What are you using now? I think the RM9 is probably good enough to adequately support a decent cartridge up to about $2K. At that point the phono stage becomes critical.

[jimdgoulding]

I was confused .  Thanks for the clarification, fellas.

[ricmon]

I was confused .  Thanks for the clarification, fellas.

Hey guys thanks for the input.  This is indeed a tricky question.  The RM9.1 is probably better that tables of the past bur thees thing are forever evolving and benefiting from new materials and manufacturing techniques.  And the price for a solidly engineered TT is quite affordable these days ( the obvious example is the VPI Classic I).  And compared to TT's of old it's quite and well built.   Having said that I am leaning toward an total TT upgrade.  But the lure of actually being an hobbiest that is putting in some effort other that sitting to enjoy his or her's audio system. 

One last thing.  In it's most basic form can this thing be made better with a new tonearm?  something that can be heard easily.

thanks
Ric

[ricmon]

I was confused .  Thanks for the clarification, fellas.

Right now I'm using the internal phone stage in my AVA UltraII.  It's quite nice with the NOS Telefunkins stuck in there.  The sound I'm getting from my system is quite satifying.  Just got the itch to do some modding

[BobM]

Right now I'm using the internal phone stage in my AVA UltraII.  It's quite nice with the NOS Telefunkins stuck in there.  The sound I'm getting from my system is quite satifying.  Just got the itch to do some modding

Yeah, you could do much better than the AVA. Upgrade your phono stage first to a dedicated outboard unit. There are many great ones to choose from in the $1500 ballpark (new or used) that will blow your doors off.

[ricmon]

Yeah, you could do much better than the AVA. Upgrade your phono stage first to a dedicated outboard unit. There are many great ones to choose from in the $1500 ballpark (new or used) that will blow your doors off.

Hey Bob have you heard a AVA phone stage?  I mean sure there are "better".  But what is exactly better?  You may want to check out the reviews of the new phono stage.  Having said that sure mine is of a certain vintage but far far from being not acceptable.

Ric

[neobop]

One last thing.  In it's most basic form can this thing be made better with a new tonearm?  something that can be heard easily.
thanks
Ric

Probably, but you have mechanical considerations here and possibilities might be severely limited.  All this talk of upgrading this or that, did you mention your cartridge(s) ?   I think it would make sense to look at the big picture, as it were.  Phono stage/cartridge/arm synergy is critical. 
neo

[ricmon]

Probably, but you have mechanical considerations here and possibilities might be severely limited.  All this talk of upgrading this or that, did you mention your cartridge(s) ?   I think it would make sense to look at the big picture, as it were.  Phono stage/cartridge/arm synergy is critical. 
neo

OK guys.  Let tap down the auxiliary tweaking talk.  Cart is a Gadro Master Reference 1, Lipinski L707's horizontally bi-amped using Ampzilla 2000's......NOS Telefunken in both the phono and line stage.....need I go on?     Been a memeber here from the start of this site 

Ric

[jarcher]

Hey Ricmon :

I'm just gonna come out & say it.  I'd upgrade to a VPI Scout 1.1.  I'm demoing one at home at the moment w/ the JMW9 unipivot arm and a Soundsmith Zephyr Mk.II cartridge, and it is simply fantastic even without either having been fully broken in.  Smooth, quiet background, tons of detail & resolution, great soundstage, deep bass.  The cartridge is also exceptional as a moving iron - very balanced sound over all. Cart is $1200 MSRP.

THe Scout also offers a lot of future upgrade options if / when you want to : tone arm, platter, the separate speed control for the motor, interconnects, etc.  Not that the Pro-ject doesn't offer many of those things as well.  And lastly it isn't the physical behemoth that the Classic tables are.  it will fit on a standard size rack space.  Probably not as cool looking as your RM9.1 though, so it won't be much of a conversation piece.  For that you'd have to get one of the more upper end Thorens.

I think to some degree your choice on a different table will also depend on how much you subscribe to the "more mass is better" school of thought.  I am a 100% believer when it is executed well as in a VPI.  The Scout 1.1 weighs 60% more vs your RM9.1 : 43lbs vs 27lbs (although both have external motors).  More importantly, a lot of that mass is in the platter : 9.5lb aluminum vs 7.8lbs acrylic for RPM9.1.  The Scout used to use an acrylic platter, but they moved over to an aluminum one because they felt it sounded better.

I personally feel that a heavier table does more good than harm, though those of the Rega school would probably argue differently that you need a lighter table for more dynamics / PRAT / etc.  I hear no substantial problems in the dynamics / PRAT department w/ the Scout 1.1. 

Lastly, VPI's are often sold w/ Grado Gold or better cartridges at the more "entry level", and Soundsmith at the upper level.  So your existing cartridge may be a good match. 

So that's my 2 cents.  I think the Scout 1.1 is a table that 90% of us could be happy with forever - and if not - many upgrade are available to bring it up to very close the level of any of the Classic line.

P.s. I also use the internal phono stage in my Conrad Johnson PV10 w/ tubes (including Telefunken) in demoing this Scout 1.1 and it sounds great to me and doesn't leave anything up to another rig with a separate Sonic Frontiers SFP-1 signature tube preamp that was $2k new.  I agree that a phono stage is important, but at a certain point unless you are shooting for the moon with mega buck table / tonearm / cartridges, the cost / return curve is stratospheric as well.  I suspect that given AVA's philosophy being similar to CJ (simple high quality circuits with high quality parts), your results will be similar.

Edit : The Scout 1.1 retails for $2K with the JMW9 arm, squarely in the middle of the budget you mentioned.

[neobop]

Scout 1.1 - not a bad idea.  There are others in the price range too, quite a few actually.  You're in a good position now.  With the table you already have, you can sit back until the right deal comes along.  Maybe you can pick up a demo or find a much more expensive used table.  I'd be inclined to look for used, but that's not for everybody.  I always see deals on Audiogon that get me thinking.  Like a Classic 1 (walnut) w/DV20XH/clamp/dustcover - $2500.  If you really want to tinker, Avid Volvere without arm -$2600.  Well Tempered Amadeus - $1825.
Have fun,
neo

[ricmon]

Scout 1.1 - not a bad idea.  There are others in the price range too, quite a few actually.  You're in a good position now.  With the table you already have, you can sit back until the right deal comes along.  Maybe you can pick up a demo or find a much more expensive used table.  I'd be inclined to look for used, but that's not for everybody.  I always see deals on Audiogon that get me thinking.  Like a Classic 1 (walnut) w/DV20XH/clamp/dustcover - $2500.  If you really want to tinker, Avid Volvere without arm -$2600.  Well Tempered Amadeus - $1825.
Have fun,
neo

You guys have provided the kind of feed back I was looking for.  Having said that let's get to it.

The RM9.1 is pretty close to the Scout in both price and performance.  However I do think that the VPI's are much better build.  Which is my problem.  For the most part I could live with my system the way it is.  But I keep getting this sense that the 9cc tone arm is a bit crude.  The rest of the turn table is rock solid.  I built a very robust stand for it and can pump the bass up to get really strong full spectrum powerful sound   After all this table did received a Product of the Year award and many good reviews...the table does it job fairly well but that tone arm!!!!  So I may take the Jenco route and upgrade the tonearm or wait and upgrade to a Classic, just not sure which one.....definitely not the two arm 4 model maybe the Companion or the Classic 1.

Ric

[ricmon]

Just fyi.  Heres some pics I posted here of the RM9.1 and stand so time ago.











Ric