Power Conditioner - Yes or No?

Folsom · « **Reply #20 on:** 28 May 2014, 06:39 pm »

All of your gear with smps power supplies and relatively small transformers will introduce noise back into the power distribution system you use (at varying amounts, anything can, but those two are most likely, and motors). Whether or not it's filtered there, and not cycled in the system, is up to you.

bdp24 · « **Reply #21 on:** 5 Jul 2014, 07:05 pm »

Quote from: Goosepond on 28 May 2014, 03:27 pm

Well, when bad weather gets too close, I start unplugging things. Then I'm really sure. Nothing is 100% safe.

Gene

At least your weather warns you it's coming. We Californian's get a BIG surprise every time there's an earthquake. Like this morning.....two of them, actually. A 4.6 and a 4.8 here in the desert, at about 10:00 AM. Gooood morning L.A.!

Chazro · « **Reply #22 on:** 5 Jul 2014, 07:34 pm »

BTW, I never got around to posting this back when I started this thread. Based on what I read here I decided to plug my RM9 directly to the wall. Here's what happened, but 1st, a little backstory!;) When I was living in GA. I was in a house and had the RM9 plugged into the PC. When I fired up the system everything was dead silent. A few yrs. back I moved to an apt. in FL., immediately upon firing up the system here I heard a hum. After checking all the usual suspects the hum persisted and I just chalked it up to the 'sharing the electricity' theory. Just figured it was due to living in an apt. vs. living in a house and simply accepted the hum, besides it was completely inaudible when playing music. Cut to this thread, after reading RM's response, I decided to give it a shot and plug the amp directly into the wall, you probably can guess what's coming! Plugged it in, buh-bye hum!!! What a pleasant surprise! The on/off switch has been behaving itself also! Listening to Ella Fitzgerald & Joe Pass as I type and life is good!!;)

Early B. · « **Reply #23 on:** 5 Jul 2014, 07:43 pm »

Quote from: Chazro on 5 Jul 2014, 07:34 pm

BTW, I never got around to posting this back when I started this thread. Based on what I read here I decided to plug my RM9 directly to the wall. Here's what happened, but 1st, a little backstory!;) When I was living in GA. I was in a house and had the RM9 plugged into the PC. When I fired up the system everything was dead silent. A few yrs. back I moved to an apt. in FL., immediately upon firing up the system here I heard a hum. After checking all the usual suspects the hum persisted and I just chalked it up to the 'sharing the electricity' theory. Just figured it was due to living in an apt. vs. living in a house and simply accepted the hum, besides it was completely inaudible when playing music. Cut to this thread, after reading RM's response, I decided to give it a shot and plug the amp directly into the wall, you probably can guess what's coming! Plugged it in, buh-bye hum!!! What a pleasant surprise! The on/off switch has been behaving itself also! Listening to Ella Fitzgerald & Joe Pass as I type and life is good!!;)

OK, but if the hum was inaudible while playing music, what did you gain by plugging the amp directly into the wall? Does you system sound better or worse now? If your PC had surge protection, you've lost that protection for your amp.

Folsom · « **Reply #24 on:** 6 Jul 2014, 12:05 am »

You realize that is the equivalent of taking a cold/luke temperature shower/bath when you have a fever right? It seems nice but there isn't a "solved problem", because there's a wiring issue or grounding issue somewhere.

I'd prefer to knock out the problem and have conditioning on the amp (with a conditioner that does well with an amplifier, and many do).

Roger A. Modjeski · « **Reply #25 on:** 6 Jul 2014, 08:54 pm »

Quote from: Chazro on 5 Jul 2014, 07:34 pm

BTW, I never got around to posting this back when I started this thread. Based on what I read here I decided to plug my RM9 directly to the wall. Here's what happened, but 1st, a little backstory!;) When I was living in GA. I was in a house and had the RM9 plugged into the PC. When I fired up the system everything was dead silent. A few yrs. back I moved to an apt. in FL., immediately upon firing up the system here I heard a hum. After checking all the usual suspects the hum persisted and I just chalked it up to the 'sharing the electricity' theory. Just figured it was due to living in an apt. vs. living in a house and simply accepted the hum, besides it was completely inaudible when playing music. Cut to this thread, after reading RM's response, I decided to give it a shot and plug the amp directly into the wall, you probably can guess what's coming! Plugged it in, buh-bye hum!!! What a pleasant surprise! The on/off switch has been behaving itself also! Listening to Ella Fitzgerald & Joe Pass as I type and life is good!!;)

Hum is usually caused by a grounding or cable issue. Only the power amp should be grounded. I still like things plugged directly into the wall. No power conditioners in my house. I still contend that for power amps especially their added resistance is not favorable.

Folsom · « **Reply #26 on:** 6 Jul 2014, 09:50 pm »

Quote from: Roger A. Modjeski on 6 Jul 2014, 08:54 pm

Hum is usually caused by a grounding or cable issue. Only the power amp should be grounded. I still like things plugged directly into the wall. No power conditioners in my house. I still contend that for power amps especially their added resistance is not favorable.

And if there's no added resistance?

Roger A. Modjeski · « **Reply #27 on:** 6 Jul 2014, 10:02 pm »

Quote from: Salis Audio on 6 Jul 2014, 09:50 pm

And if there's no added resistance?

And what kind of conditioner is that?

Folsom · « **Reply #28 on:** 6 Jul 2014, 10:24 pm »

I often leave induction/resistance free sockets on ones I make, that still benefit from attenuation of noise by capacitors, ground care, and the fact that the other non-amps are filtered so that it doesn't feed nearly as much back for the amp to experience.

But to be honest when I use .008ohm resistance CMC's, I don't think any human could tell the difference for any kind of remote possibility of resistance.

jtwrace · « **Reply #29 on:** 6 Jul 2014, 10:28 pm »

Maybe you should send Roger one of your conditioner's to try.

I'd be interested in his opinion and if it's something that he thinks is good I'm sure you would benefit from it too.

Roger A. Modjeski · « **Reply #30 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 02:41 am »

Quote from: Salis Audio on 24 May 2014, 04:57 pm

Myths...

The giant chokes by Gray did work, but no one ended up liking the sound, the resistance was through the roof too so they wasted a ton of energy, and his pricing may not have been very appropriate.

This all seems ridiculous to me since a system with a good power conditioner is a pleasure to listen too, and one without is a chore by comparison.

Also to note, almost no amplifier has any serious filtration to speak of. The design usually rejects a fair amount of RF and ground loops, but even very well designed units benefit from power conditioning.

Are you talking about Gray's original device which was two wire choke that went in parallel with the power outlet?

My amplifiers have serious filtration and RF protection and very few problems with ground loops.

Folsom · « **Reply #31 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 04:34 am »

Parallel?

What amplifiers?

Power conditioners are not actually for correcting obvious problems. They aren't for removing RF that you can hear in the speaker. The majority of obvious problems need to be fixed in a different way, unassociated with the AC power.

Power conditioners, what they actually do is reduce the stuff on the AC line that's affecting what you hear. You hear the removal of the affect, not a removal of a "sound" or "artifact". Simply... you should just notice you stereo doing everything better, and a reduction of fatique.

Fisher makes a little 'acoustic guitar' amplifier. If you play it into the wall it sounds fine with acoustic guitars. If you plug it into one of my musician conditioners then it sounds good electric or acoustic; but even more noticeable is the lack of a "splat" sound at the peak of every note replaced by a fully rounded note. Prior to that experiment no one knew there was a "splat" at the high end music store, but after it was gone you couldn't unhear it. The point being there wasn't an unwanted sound, or artifact (all of those were affecting amplification). It was the note the whole time, but the quality of it changed drastically even though the "sound" of the tuning, knobs, all that, was the same.

*explaining this to a musician is almost impossible, they're mostly insecure people scared that a power conditioner will change the type of sound their guitar makes... Because quality to them stands for the type of sound that's being made, not how well it's made.

Roger A. Modjeski · « **Reply #32 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 04:40 am »

Quote from: Salis Audio on 7 Jul 2014, 04:34 am

Parallel?

What amplifiers?

Is the Gray power conditioner of which you speak one that goes in parallel with the line...You do understand parallel?

http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/power.html
Patented parallel iron-core inductor technology is proven (after 1 million installations and counting) to provide instant current –on–demand to power efficiently today’s High Performance-Current hungry AV components and electronic systems.

Gosh did he really sell one million of these things...

What Amplifiers? My amplifiers.

Folsom · « **Reply #33 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 04:46 am »

I'm not sure what's in them now. The early one was literally a giant choke.

What do you think the odds of me understanding parallel is, given that I make conditioners?

Roger A. Modjeski · « **Reply #34 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 04:55 am »

Quote from: Salis Audio on 7 Jul 2014, 04:46 am

I'm not sure what's in them now. The early one was literally a giant choke.

What do you think the odds of me understanding parallel is, given that I make conditioners?

As to your understanding of Gray I think there is some confusion, which I am trying to claify.

Yes the early one was a giant choke. From his website it appears that is what he is still making in various configurations. So how does one connect that? Series or parallel?

Folsom · « **Reply #35 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 05:05 am »

I think he's claiming parallel, but also using series.

Maybe I got the new stuff wrong? People were buying giant chokes from PE for series, to duplicate his a long time ago.

Roger A. Modjeski · « **Reply #36 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 05:13 am »

Quote from: Salis Audio on 7 Jul 2014, 05:05 am

I think he's claiming parallel, but also using series.

Maybe I got the new stuff wrong? People were buying giant chokes from PE for series, to duplicate his a long time ago.

How about explaining what you said here in electrical terms. The giant chokes by Gray did work, but no one ended up liking the sound, the resistance was through the roof too so they wasted a ton of energy

In particular how did they work and how did they waste a ton of energy?

Folsom · « **Reply #37 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 05:35 am »

A choke has two wires in parallel, they induct onto a core of sorts. Now the most common thing they are used for is a reduction in common mode noise (something often generated by small transformers that create capacitance between not well enough insulated layers). But some also work on differential mode noise. Line and neutral going through each side to cause these desired results.

The induction can cause resistance. Some of those bigger chokes were upwards of 50ohms.

Claims were that there were benefits for certain areas of the music. They were so interesting people would use them, then take them back out and be shocked at regained dynamics.

It's been forever, but it's the only origin story for anything but trashy consumer "filters" that add any real notable resistance. For example Audience Adept might have .008ohm per socket as well, or abouts. Reviewers with big amps haven't been claiming a loss of dynamics. I don't know if the Uberbuss adds any at all, either. Frankly I've just come to believe there's a lot of buzz around certain claims of power conditioning, not necessarily associated with use.

The other issue is that sometimes people find out their stereo was compensating too much for it's inadequate abilities without power conditioning. That's a rough one to deal with.

Folsom · « **Reply #38 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 06:04 am »

Looking at what I can find on the new ones, parallel is a fib in a sense. They're in parallel until there's draw on the stored energy, then they become a source. That's based on how they claim to work, but don't include full disclosure of how it changes. Reviews still claim they help one thing, hurt another. And techinically when the inductors act as a source, resistance is probably pretty high!

Lot of talk over a something you wouldn't use anyway

Roger A. Modjeski · « **Reply #39 on:** 7 Jul 2014, 06:21 am »

Quote from: Salis Audio on 7 Jul 2014, 06:04 am

Looking at what I can find on the new ones, parallel is a fib in a sense. They're in parallel until there's draw on the stored energy, then they become a source. That's based on how they claim to work, but don't include full disclosure of how it changes. Reviews still claim they help one thing, hurt another. And techinically when the inductors act as a source, resistance is probably pretty high!

Lot of talk over a something you wouldn't use anyway

Gray seems to say very little these days. I guess selling one million units affords him that option.

His parallel unit is a single winding on an iron core, basically the primary of a power transformer. It is connected in parallel with the wall socket and is doing what the primary of your power transformer is already doing. It does not draw or waste heaps of power. It draws 6 mA and the resistance is a few ohms. I measured it.