[vortrex]

\First allow me to declare a preference for soft dome tweeters over ribbon tweeters. I didn't know this until this past weekend. I got to listen to so many different speakers from so many manufacturers that I am certain of my preference. I am still unable to find an adjective to describe ribbon sounds vs domes....perhaps 'surgical', or 'scalpel-like' (analytical??--Did I really say that?) rather than a soft enveloping sweetness?? [I know..."scalpel-like?!? WTH is he saying?] Whatever the adjective, I know what I prefer now.

I've had two speakers with RAAL's and the last two with domes.  I prefer the domes also.
 

[guf]

I've had two speakers with RAAL's and the last two with domes.  I prefer the domes also.

Yeah, hard to disagree  with the experts and what's "right" and accurate. But I'm in the dome camp also after my experience with the RAAL.

[ricardojoa]

What domes tweeters are you guys refering? Im sure that most domes will sound widely different between models while the raal may actually sound similiar within their models.

[vortrex]

For me...

RAAL = Selah Tempesta and Vapor Audio Cirrus

Domes = Daedalus Pan (Eton) and dc10audio Briton II's (Scanspeak)

[jsalk]

Great to hear Jim!

This sounds like a very engaging speaker

I love when you unveil something unannounced at a show
Will these be going to RMAF?

Yes, we will.

What is the sensitivity and ohm?

They are basically an 8-ohm design that is about 92db sensitive.

- Jim

[woodsyi]

I am looking forward to hearing this in DC (Rockville, actually).  What would happen if you were to put the same active bass unit with an SS top?  Is there a possibility of an SS8²active? Or is the Accuton mid range not a good fit?

[DMurphy]

Why does the Exotica 3 use a dome tweeter versus a ribbon?  At 1.5 times the prices of the SS8s, wouldn't you be taking a downgrade to the high end performance?

That's a complicated question, which Jim might want to weigh in on.  My take on it is that Jim wanted to try out the Exotica drivers, since they were very interesting, high in sensitivity,  and a matched set.  We often wondered how the sound would differ with the RAAL rather than the dome, but the initial reactions were so positive that Jim hasn't messed with a good thing.  And there's room for honest disagreement about domes vs. ribbons.  Notice that Jim brought the dome version of the ST's.  In general, domes have more apparent energy in the 6 kHz region, while ribbons provide more information at the very top.  As a result, some people think dome speakers have a more focused sound in the low-to-mid high frequencies, and some people prefer that.  My real point is that there is nothing inaccurate about a very good ribbon.  So I don't think they should be dismissed as "analytical" or "antiseptic" or whatever.

[WGH]

In general, domes have more apparent energy in the 6 kHz region, while ribbons provide more information at the very top.  As a result, some people think dome speakers have a more focused sound in the low-to-mid high frequencies, and some people prefer that.

It will be interesting to see if our tweeter preferences change as we age, those wonderful RAAL highs I now enjoy may just become a fond memory.

Wayne

[jsalk]

Why does the Exotica 3 use a dome tweeter versus a ribbon?  At 1.5 times the prices of the SS8s, wouldn't you be taking a downgrade to the high end performance?

Good question.  While price does not necessarily equate to quality, the Exotic tweeter is more expensive than the RAAL ribbon tweeter we use.

When we built the first Exotica 2-way monitor, it was at the request of a customer who wanted to use these drivers.  I was a bit skeptical that they could be worth the price.  But as soon as I fired them up, I was very impressed with what I was hearing.  I had heard quite a few high-sensitivity drivers in the past and they always left me wanting.  These were clearly different.

Was it the high sensitivity that I found alluring?  Was it the cone material?  Or was it the Alinico magnets? (It turns out that many of the most sought after vintage drivers used Alinco magnets. So it is likely that this was not just a coincidence.) Regardless, there was just something that drew me into the sound.

When contemplating a 3-way using the Exotic woofer, I thought about switching to the RAAL tweeter which is one of my all-time favorite drivers (we use more RAAL tweeters than any other).  But what part of the magic I was hearing was due to the Alinico magnets in the Exotic tweeter?  I certainly wouldn't want to lose any that magic.  And there really wan't anything in the high treble I found lacking. 

The T35 tweeter was designed to mate with the Exotic woofer.  And they work very well together.  So I saw no compelling reason to switch to the RAAL for this model.  (If someone wants the Exotic/RAAL combination, we could certainly build it.)  The other reason we stuck with the Exotic tweeter (and developed the woofer section the way we did) is that I was unwilling to give up any of the sensitivity of these drivers.  Of course, the RAAL would not have, but most other tweeters we could have used would have.

So while I am a huge fan of RAAL ribbon tweeters and they probably would have worked in this design, I saw no particular compelling reason to switch.  As the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

We received comments from a number of different individuals who thought that the sound in our room at AXPONA was superior to any other time they had heard us at an audio show.  So the speakers (and electronics) must have been doing something right. 

I short, while I am obviously a huge fan of RAAL ribbon tweeters, I don't regard the use of the T35 as a "downgrade to high-end performance." It is just a different route to arrive at the same place...audio nirvana.

- Jim

[R Swerdlow]

I see Dennis and Jim just responded to a number of previous posts about preferences of dome or ribbon tweeters.  I'll try to add something…

It's always hard to talk about a tweeter's sound, by itself, for at least 2 reasons.  One is that most of the tweeter's sound with instruments or voices consists of harmonic overtones and not the primary tone.  In a typical 2-way speaker, with a 6.5" woofer, the crossover is about 2 to 2.5 kHz.  If you are familiar with a piano (http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm), only the highest 2 or 3 octaves on the right side of the keyboard are above that range.

The other reason is that you never listen to a tweeter alone, without a midrange or mid-woofer and without a crossover.  Recognizing that most of the primary tones are produced by the woofer, what I respond to when I "listen to a tweeter" is just how well a tweeter blends with the midrange or woofer.

First of all, a crossover designer must avoid using a tweeter at too low a frequency – most audible tweeter distortion results because of just that.  Second, the crossover must also blend tweeter sound with the woofer.  With sound in the crossover frequency range (± an octave), both drivers will produce roughly equal amounts of sound.  They must be in acoustic phase with each other in that range.  The tweeter's high pass curve and the woofer's low pass curve should be as symmetric with each other as possible.  This is easier said than done, and is often the reason why some tweeters are said to be hard to work with, and others easy.  If achieved, all this helps produce a cohesive and focused sound, and is largely responsible for producing good sound imaging.

A tweeter's upper frequency response (roughly 7 to 20 kHz) is not unimportant, but what makes a tweeter fail or succeed at "sounding good" is in its lower range (roughly 2 to 5 kHz).  The crossover is right there.  That's why I say you can't "listen to a tweeter" without noticing how well the crossover does its work.

That came out longer than I wanted.  I hope someone follows it  .

[mrlittlejeans]

How would a pair of Exotica 2's with four Rythmik 12" subs compare to the Exotica 3's?  The Exotica 3's are around $3k more than the 2's with four 12" subs.

[jsalk]

How would a pair of Exotica 2's with four Rythmik 12" subs compare to the Exotica 3's?  The Exotica 3's are around $3k more than the 2's with four 12" subs.

That would appear to be a viable approach.  The question is how well can all of the various parts be integrated?  The 8" drivers we used integrate very well and we have everything dialed in.  You may be able to do the same thing, but a good deal of work would be required to get everything well integrated.  If you have measurement equipment and a good deal of time, it would probably be quite workable.  If not, it could be somewhat hit or miss. (We could do this work, but would have to charge extra for doing it.)

Also, I think the paper cone woofers we used would be easier to integrate with the Exotic drivers (size and material-wise).

Finally, you would have a lot larger setup.

- Jim

[TJHUB]

How would a pair of Exotica 2's with four Rythmik 12" subs compare to the Exotica 3's?  The Exotica 3's are around $3k more than the 2's with four 12" subs.

Exotica 2's with two 12" subs would be more equal and likely play lower.  Four subs would have far more output.

[Big Red Machine]

I agree with Swerd.  I don't think this should be a tweeter issue.

For me, once I heard this speaker I was hooked.  Didn't matter to me if it was a dome.  I have hated and loved domes.  But I am buying the complete speaker so after a listen that component design may be a moot point if you like the overall sound.

I never heard the Exotica before.  Moving away from Detroit means I don't get to the shop.  Missed RMAF last year as well.  Now that I have heard it AND it has been integrated with the bass drivers the overall sound is more what I want.

Those are not cheap drivers, but you get what you pay for.  And you can buy a much smaller, lower powered amp now.

[jtwrace]

And you can buy a much smaller, lower powered amp now.

Is this what you will do?  If so, what are you thinking about?

[Big Red Machine]

Is this what you will do?  If so, what are you thinking about?

No idea.  Need to post amps and get money first!

[jtwrace]

No idea.  Need to post amps and get money first!

[mresseguie]

Swerdlow,

You may well be correct.

I've been going on about this or that tweeter because I assume it's a tweeter issue. I do not know that for a fact. It's quite possible that I was hearing an imperfect crossover, a misalignment between the mid-woofer/woofer and the tweeter, or a combination of drivers and crossovers experiencing a troubled relationship, or just bad rooms/acoustics. The possibilities are mind boggling.

After a good night's sleep and a delicious Macchiato this morning, I found myself wondering if I ought to be looking for a single driver speaker instead. Unless I'm mistaken, SEAS makes two Exotic full range drivers. Hmm. Worth looking into IMHO.

Great discussion on this thread!

[R Swerdlow]

After a good night's sleep and a delicious Macchiato this morning, I found myself wondering if I ought to be looking for a single driver speaker instead. Unless I'm mistaken, SEAS makes two Exotic full range drivers. Hmm. Worth looking into IMHO.

If you keep thinking about how good a speaker sounds days after you've heard it, you're in trouble .
The only solution may be to buy a pair of Exoticas.

When considering single driver speakers, ask Jim or Dennis why there isn't one in the Salk line up.

[jtwrace]

After a good night's sleep and a delicious Macchiato this morning,

That sounds like Starbucks talk.