Sapphire vs. Panorama

eastberlin · « **on:** 19 Aug 2004, 03:02 pm »

Mike, I'm a Sapphire III owner, and love those speakers. What distinguishes the Panorama from your current Sapphire model? In which applications would you recommend one over the other? Thanks!

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Aug 2004, 05:20 pm »

Quote from: eastberlin

Mike, I'm a Sapphire III owner, and love those speakers. What distinguishes the Panorama from your current Sapphire model? In which applications would you recommend one over the other? Thanks!

This is a great question. I'll answer it, but let's wait over the weekend and see if others chime in with their opinions. Thanks!

thedeskE · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 Aug 2004, 07:02 pm »

I'm on day 2 of breaking in my first set of Panos. My 25th Anivers Sapphires are repositioned to the rear. The diff? Huge! In full range or crossed for 5.1.

I'll have more to say after 200+ hours, but the difference in price is not an issue once you crack a set for yourself. I suspect others will confirm.

E

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #3 on:** 25 Aug 2004, 02:14 pm »

I was hoping we'd see more from owners who have both models. I sometimes forget that this circle is very young and only a handful of ACI customers even know about it yet:)

The Panorama is better than the Sapphire in just about every aspect. Transparency, soundstage, dynamics, sheer musicality. The Sapphires would have an advantage in extreme nearfield listening as you need to be a bit further back from three drivers vs. two drivers for it to all come together. So if I was choosing a speaker to use two-or three feet away, it would be the Sapphire.

This is as it should be. The extra dollars should get significantly better performance and in this case they do. We feel the Sapphire is one of the finest sounding speakers you can get in the under $1500 range and of course often betters speakers costing quite a bit more. Our customers tell us that the Panorama is really competitive with anything in it's price range and even often at twice the price.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Aug 2004, 11:52 pm »

Greetings Mike,
I have to say I am impressed with the ACI line of speakers. I have heard so much about these in the past but never researced them. Untill this post came about, I too was curious about these two speakers.
I may have to pick up a pair of the Panorama speakers to keep around my shop for evaluating and testing tube amp mods (some of the higher powered units).

Maybe I will get a chance to hear the Jaguars someday and consider them to pair up with my EXtreme ASL 200 watt Hurricanes!!

Nice work! You may be hearing from me very soon! If they sound anywhere near as good as they look, I'm in.

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Aug 2004, 12:01 pm »

Bill:

Good to see you over here. I've heard good things about your products and work. Seems that a pair of Panoramas would be an excellent evaluative tool. There might be a downside: as you know, when it gets really good there's this tendency to stop evaluating-working and just listen to the music. Very distracting! Email me sometime. Thanks Bill!

Bill Baker · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Aug 2004, 02:06 pm »

Quote

There might be a downside: as you know, when it gets really good there's this tendency to stop evaluating-working and just listen to the music.

That is actually a part of my evaluating. If it makes you stop to listen to the music, you're on the right track. I always try to make time to sit back and enjoy rather than always sitting at the bench soldering and looking at the scope. After all, it's all about the music.
All work and no play makes a man go insane!
I'll be in touch.

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #7 on:** 31 Aug 2004, 12:06 am »

[/quote]
That is actually a part of my evaluating. If it makes you stop to listen to the music, you're on the right track. I always try to make time to sit back and enjoy rather than always sitting at the bench soldering and looking at the scope. After all, it's all about the music.
All work and no play makes a man go insane!
I'll be in touch.[/quote]

Bill:

You are sooo right. Have a good one!

Jayman · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Nov 2006, 12:28 am »

The Panorama is being discontinued with no 3-way model currently set to replace it, so... there still only a little time to buy a pair of a dying breed. Back in 2004 Mike wrote the following here in this post:

"The Panorama is better than the Sapphire in just about every aspect. Transparency, soundstage, dynamics, sheer musicality....The extra dollars should get significantly better performance and in this case they do..."

I am wondering, would this statement would still be true of the Panorama versus the current XL? What would be the straightforward comparison of the Panorama and the new and improved Sapphire XL?

Thanks!

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Nov 2006, 07:35 pm »

Just making sure everyone knows that the earlier comments in this thread were about earlier versions of the Sapphires, like the Sapphire III and the Sapphire 24th Anniversary Edition. The question now posed, is how do the Sapphire XL and the Panorama compare?

I know quite a few folks have made that comparison . . . whether they'll see and post, we'll have to see. I'll wait a day or so and chime in

Jayman · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Nov 2006, 05:24 pm »

Surprisingly there have been no comments thus far. Is it because they are so close or is it that there is really no comparison

I am still waiting on a shipping quote from the sales department for both Panorama and Sapphire to Beijing, China. I hope someone can help on deciding which model would be a better buy without considering price...the Panoramas are going, going, almost gone so I hope people can give their comments soon

Thanks!

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Nov 2006, 08:38 pm »

Jayman:

I guess at this point, non of those who've heard both have seen this post . . . I'll give my ideas on Friday.
and . . .
You have email

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 Nov 2006, 09:07 pm »

Sorry about the delay, I had promised Friday, but got behind. . . and frankly, comparing these two great speakers is very tough for me. Both do justice to the music, and both have the kind of portrayal that a person can enjoy month after month, year after year. So, I'll try to be as objective as I can be and let you then decide which best fits your needs. I'm basing the following on my own listening, and the feedback I've gotten from a LOT of other folks over the last two years.

If we were to go down the line and discuss imaging specificity, detail, highs, mids, bass, etc. the edge on many of these sonic attributes would go to the Sapphire XLs. In many cases, that edge would be quite slight, but the overall impression is that the XLs are one of the most "real" sounding speakers I've ever heard . . . and I'm talking about cost as no object. The Panos are close, but the XLs resolve just a bit better, and disappear like few other speakers. Simply put, you'll have a tough time finding a pair of speakers that sounds better overall than the Sapphire XLs at any price . . . period. Still, the fact is, they are a relatively compact speaker. And, as such, they will not play as loudly, or have the bass reach of larger speakers. In most rooms, and most setups, this won't be an issue. If however, your room is quite large, and you like to play at concert levels, you need a larger speaker to do this. Now the Panorama becomes a wonderful option. And of course the other consideration is bass. The Pano reaches a bit deeper, and has significantly greater dynamic authority on the low end.

You can of course add a sub(s) to either system which really closes the gap as far as dynamic and bass capability.

So, for most people, I think the Sapphire XL is the perfect answer. Some folks who really like to crank it and probably have larger rooms will find the Panorama to be the perfect choice. I hope this helps with your decision, you're a winner either way

Photon46 · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 04:41 pm »

To complicate comparisons a wee bit further Mike, I'm curious how the Talisman SE's fare in comparison to a Sapphire XL/sub combo. I realize that the Talismans are no longer in production, but being a customer who bought one of the last Talismans during the summer, I'm curious. I've had the Talismans now for about four months, and I don't think they fully achieved break in until quite recently (and that's with daily use of two-four hours.) They continue to impress, no aspect of performance calls undue attention to itself. They have fantastic soundstaging, frequency extension, dynamic capabilities, you name it. I did replace the stock MDF speaker bases with some 1 3/8" thick hard maple bases I made. The stock cone feet were replaced with sharper Viablue cones, now the speakers couple through my carpet to the concrete floor. That's the only thing I felt needed upgrading, they look really nice now with matching bases and the bass firmed up a smidgen.

Jayman · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 06:18 pm »

Mike,

Thank you for your reply. I will indeed be adding a sub(s) to the system (1 or 2 Force XL's) so in terms of deep bass I should be covered there. I will not be placing these in a very large space, nor will I be cranking up to extremely high levels. So, are you saying the only area in which the Panorama beats the Sapphire XL is bass and that with a 2.1 or HT setup the Sapphire XL is the choice over the Panorama?
If I am reading your response correctly, under these conditions the Sapphire XL would be the winner over the Panorama, yes?

Shipping to China is quite expensive so I don't have the real luxury of a 30 trial at home so thank you in advance for allowing me to pin you down on this one

PS - I will coupling these speakers with a Chinese-made Dussun amp (250 WPC), the same company that makes Mark Levinson's Red Rose brand solid state amplifiers. Actually the amp is almost identical to the Red Rose "Affirmation" which sells for USD 7000. I can buy it from the local dealer for about USD 800. I get the feeling between ACI speakers and this amp my system will be chock full of killer performance for a fraction of the price! Gotta love good hi-fi without having to sell body parts or take out a second mortgage

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 09:11 pm »

Quote from: Photon46 on 26 Nov 2006, 04:41 pm

To complicate comparisons a wee bit further Mike, I'm curious how the Talisman SE's fare in comparison to a Sapphire XL/sub combo. I realize that the Talismans are no longer in production, but being a customer who bought one of the last Talismans during the summer, I'm curious. I've had the Talismans now for about four months, and I don't think they fully achieved break in until quite recently (and that's with daily use of two-four hours.) They continue to impress, no aspect of performance calls undue attention to itself. They have fantastic soundstaging, frequency extension, dynamic capabilities, you name it. I did replace the stock MDF speaker bases with some 1 3/8" thick hard maple bases I made. The stock cone feet were replaced with sharper Viablue cones, now the speakers couple through my carpet to the concrete floor. That's the only thing I felt needed upgrading, they look really nice now with matching bases and the bass firmed up a smidgen.

Sounds like you're just getting to the really good part . . . Now for the next 20 years of sonic bliss

I've mentioned this before, but I sometimes wish I would have hung onto my set of Talismans . . . they really are a magical "kick butt and take no prisoners" speaker. As far as comparing to the Sapphire XLs . . . well of course the size difference is HUGE. Given that the Talisman SEs are essentially Panoramas with built in powered Force subs, I think you can derive the comparisons from my comments of the Panorama and Sapphire XL. Enjoy!

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 09:42 pm »

Quote from: Jayman on 26 Nov 2006, 06:18 pm

Mike,

Thank you for your reply. I will indeed be adding a sub(s) to the system (1 or 2 Force XL's) so in terms of deep bass I should be covered there. I will not be placing these in a very large space, nor will I be cranking up to extremely high levels. So, are you saying the only area in which the Panorama beats the Sapphire XL is bass and that with a 2.1 or HT setup the Sapphire XL is the choice over the Panorama?
If I am reading your response correctly, under these conditions the Sapphire XL would be the winner over the Panorama, yes?

Shipping to China is quite expensive so I don't have the real luxury of a 30 trial at home so thank you in advance for allowing me to pin you down on this one

PS - I will coupling these speakers with a Chinese-made Dussun amp (250 WPC), the same company that makes Mark Levinson's Red Rose brand solid state amplifiers. Actually the amp is almost identical to the Red Rose "Affirmation" which sells for USD 7000. I can buy it from the local dealer for about USD 800. I get the feeling between ACI speakers and this amp my system will be chock full of killer performance for a fraction of the price! Gotta love good hi-fi without having to sell body parts or take out a second mortgage

The Sapphire XLs will be absolutely perfect for you. As an aside, there are currently four reviewers who have finished reviewing them and are doing a darn good job of delaying the return.

Usually reviewers are in a hurry to ship back speakers once they're done because they don't have the room . . . having been in this biz for nearly 30 years, I know just how significant it is when reviewers don't want to ship back their review samples . . . and yes, all four of these folks own reference systems that cost WAY more than the XLs.
If you're interested in the beautiful Piano Black, this is now on special for the same price as Satin Black, a significant savings. I can't wait for you to hear yours

Photon46 · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 10:23 pm »

Mike, I am indeed looking forward to many years of enjoyment. I gather that others who have bought Talismans feel the same, as I have never seen a pair for sale on Audiogon over the many years I've been checking out the site. Regarding inferrences from your comparison, I wasn't sure if the differences between Panos and Talismans (porting, different crossover points for low frequencies) allowed the Talismans to operate at higher level than the Panoramas.

Night_Train · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 10:42 pm »

If we want to infuse complication as the above poster alluded to, one has to take into consideration the fact that the Talisman SE's are "sealed" speakers and the regular Panorama and Sapphire XL's are ported. I have not heard the latter two ported speakers, but assume there must be at least some subtle differences between these sealed/ported styles that would be complementary. It also opens up the preferential can of worms: sealed vs ported speakers. The "Pan Head 250's" (i.e. Talisman SE) were one of the few sealed tower/floor standing speakers that I actually could find. Now getting your mitts on the the elusive sealed tower is going to even be more difficult. I'm glad I got my set when I did and I won't be getting rid of them anytime soon!

Night_Train · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Nov 2006, 10:55 pm »

I wonder if Mike knows off hand how many sets of Talisman/Talisman SE's he's put out for sale over the course of building them and if the serial number system is just a random numbering for each speaker? I understand there were two model Talisman's in different model years, but not sure how long each style was available?