M451 suitable electrostica?

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Dutch Ear

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M451 suitable electrostica?
« on: 17 Apr 2014, 08:29 am »
Hello,
Does anyone have experience with the m451 (or the Virtue One or Two) in combination with electrostatic speakers in general
or to be be more precise with the Audiostatic ES100?
Can the M451 deliver enough base? Does the M451 need a more powerfull PCU?

Best regards

Hans

virtue

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #1 on: 17 Apr 2014, 01:51 pm »
Hans,

Thanks for posting here, this is a good place.

You really need to look at the impedance curves for your speaker.  If it's doing a lot of work under 4 ohms (ie. 3 ohms, 2 ohms), our Tripath-based amplifiers are probably not a terrific fit because they don't have a truly bullet-proof, high-current output stage.

Perhaps there are some smaller ESL that will work well or better with our amps. They're probably smaller panels that require subwoofers.

We've had customers both deeply enjoy and blow up their amplifiers on large Quad ESL 57s -- which are available used for bargain prices.  There are tons of Class AB amps that drive those speakers just fine: use one.

What I don't want you to do is to damage your amplifier.  The cost to fix it, including shipping, is well more than you paid for it ;-)

If you're casting around for things to try that sound great, try some higher sensitivity, no cross-over speakers.  Omega sells some great ones and you can find many in Europe based on Fostex drivers.

Seth

bardamu

Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #2 on: 17 Apr 2014, 04:18 pm »
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audiostatic-es-100-loudspeaker-measurements
Hello,
I did do some ''googling''. It seems you need a powerfull amp. I have the m901 with battery power supply but i just use it above 80 hertz. I think if you wanna use a virtue amp full range you will run out of power easily. Sincere greetings, Edward

Dutch Ear

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #3 on: 18 Apr 2014, 05:34 pm »
Thank you for your advice Seth and Bardamu.
Off topic Bardamu.......Bardamu (BardamE) is Dutch for a female bartender  :D

bardamu

Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #4 on: 18 Apr 2014, 06:27 pm »
Hello,
I know. Bardamu is also the main character in one of my favourite French books. I know there is a M451 available secondhand in my country. BUT i am not sure if it can be used full range. Having the virtue just handle 80 hertz and higher will give it an easier life. If you allready have the audiostatics i would ask if i could try the virtue at home to be sure.
I am using them with planet L from elipson and an SVS pc 12 subwoofer. Will add a second pc 12 soon when wireless connecting device will be available at the SVS distributor in Norway.
There is a thread about the new virtue amp and quad electrostatics.
When they are matched with speakers they like the virtue electronics are really wonderfull.
Sincere greetings, Edward

Dutch Ear

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #5 on: 18 Apr 2014, 07:27 pm »
Hello Edward,

I don't have the audiostatics but i do have the M451. The reason i asked was because i am thinking of selling the M451 and someone who owns a par of audiostatics asked me if the M451 would be the right amp for him.
Because i didn't know it i asked it on this forum.

Greetings

Hans

virtue

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #6 on: 20 Apr 2014, 09:09 pm »
Hans,

I would advise against that.  Stay in the sweet spot of the amp - speakers 88db or more sensitivity and 4 ohms or more impedance.

Seth

Lars_M

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #7 on: 27 Apr 2014, 04:42 pm »
Don't sell the Sensation  :nono:

After a long time on hold, my Sensation is in for summer duty to avoid my tube-amps from overheating the living-room  :thumb:

And it does a pretty good job on my 100 dB open baffles too




virtue

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #8 on: 27 Apr 2014, 05:25 pm »
Great photo Lars!  Thanks for posting!

Dutch Ear

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #9 on: 27 Apr 2014, 09:29 pm »
 :D Lars....i used a printscreen of your  posting, including your comment  as one of the photographs in the selling add. It's the best way to describd the quality of the M451.
But i think i won't sell it. I ' am going to put money aside for a powersuply that's  right for the M451 and after that i'am gonna look for the right speakers.
Since i connected a Raumfeld Connector 2 (streamingdevice with a built in 24bit/96kHz Cirrus Logic DAC ) the quality of the sound has improved a lot with mij speakers (Teufel Optima MK2). Looking at your picture, i have a long, long way to go......

virtue

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #10 on: 27 Apr 2014, 11:30 pm »
Hans,

Astron LS-10A or SLA battery supplies are the best.

Batteries lower the noise floor a lot.  They are very cheap to make or buy -- wire harnesses are difficult to make well, easy to make poorly.  Be sure to put a fuse in there for added protection.

I'm trying to find someone to build me some harnesses - maybe Gary Dodd.  We'll see.

Seth

bardamu

Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #11 on: 30 Apr 2014, 03:53 pm »
Hello,
Of course the 24-30 volt dc entrance at the back of the virtue gear is a bit on the small side. In the past i did remove the plug and use the hole to put some kind of strain relief. For connecting the battery to the virtue i did use massive wire from an old cross over coil insulated with teflon tubing and then put the 2 wires in what is called a polyester mesh braid. Use a connector ( amphenol/neutrik/speakon? 2 poles) at the battery side. If it is to much diy. Just cut the cable from the standard supply, strip the cable and connect it to the batteries.
Greetings, Edward

virtue

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #12 on: 3 May 2014, 01:12 am »
It seems as though the radio controlled airplane folks are offering 21v lion packs.  That will work for the ONE.3 at < $100 pricing with charger.  Would be interesting to hear impressions of them.

bardamu

Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #13 on: 3 May 2014, 07:37 am »
Hello,
Did visit a big european electronic online shop. I will try to do a proper translation. '' due to crashes or misuse these batteries could start burning or even explode so they should be transported and stored in a safety box '' This safety box is made by one of the manufactures of this kind of battery.
Yesterday i did see a part of a documentary on economics. A lot of manufactures do produce their products in such a way that they have a limited lifetime. We are kind of fooled all the time by the big guys.
Sadly i did miss a bit but they could make a light bulb that will last a REAL long time but soon after it was invented they did make a change so it will '' expire '' within a reasonable time. They show a lightbulb that has been burning for 110 years.
I dont have any offspring so 30 years will be enough for my virtue amp.
My big set has some big electronics attached. I mean tube dac with high voltage output, tube pre amp with symmetrical output, turntable so it will be a drastic change to go virtue there. If i do i will try to find a sensation and modify it like i did my other one or maybe get some one.3 circuit boards.
Just bolt the board almost directly to the battery. I think i remember reading the soft start is for keep the traces on the board from burning during switching on? Just connect the wires directly to the cap?
Sincere greetings, Edward

Dutch Ear

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #14 on: 6 May 2014, 07:29 pm »
Finally got hold of a PSU similar to the Astron LS-10A.. it's regulated 29,3 Volt 10,5 A, 300 Watt supply.
I couldn't believe my ears. What a difference, it's unbelievable.
I happened to be in a High End Audio shop today, I bought a Marantz PM6005 amp for my other set.
I listened to it on a pair of Focals. It sounded great, but after having listened to my m451 just now, with the new PSU, i' am convinced that the M451 is really  a top amp.
It is much better then the Marantz, which is a multi Award wining amp itself.

virtue

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #15 on: 7 May 2014, 06:13 am »
Thanks for the cool anecdote. 

What model Focals are you driving?

What is it about the Sensation sound you liked better than the Marantz with these speakers?

Dutch Ear

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Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #16 on: 7 May 2014, 07:39 am »
Hi Seth,
The Focals (Chorus 706) were driven by the Marantz in the High End Audio shop.
Then, later that day, i received my new PSU for the 451 and as usually it drives my Teufel Optima MK2 speakers.
So it's the combination M451/Teufel that i liked better then Marantz/Focal Chorus 706.
The Marantz PM6005 is very smooth, a lot is happening in the midrange, high and low are not very much outspoken.
But bass, treble and high were all in neutral position, just the way i normally like.
Later, at home, i connected the new PSU and the M451/Teufel combination was really overwhelming.
As i was listening to tracks i know very well, but suddenly i heard all kinds of instruments that i hadn't heard before.
I told my 10 year old son, who was playing with his Nintendo DS in the living room tot turn of the sound of his DS, because i thought these sounds were coming from his DS. But the volume of his DS was muted.
At another track (Sarah Mclachlan's "Angel") for the first time in my life my wife didn't tell me to turn down the volume (which was bout 75 % at the time). She asked me to play it once more at an even higher volume :-)
The music was everywere. I was walking around from right to left and from back to forward, but it didn't matter, the music was all over, from deep down to mi dd all the way to high.
Next I tried Dire Straits "Ticket to Heaven"at a bitrate of 2936 kbps !! And it was a appropriate title, because i thought i was already there.

bardamu

Re: M451 suitable electrostica?
« Reply #17 on: 7 May 2014, 04:51 pm »
Hello,
Long time ago there used to be someone with a virtue one or two. I did buy my sensation 901 secondhand in the States and now there is a satisfied customer with a 451 as well in The netherlands.
I am seriously thinking about getting some more virtue gear to imp[rove my bigger system. But i would like the input impedance to be higher because i wanna use it with a filter like this between preamp and amp

YES it is in French.My preamp has an output transformer with low impedance output. But there has to be a cetrain ratio between output and input impedance to make the filter work. Using tube amplifiers will give you high input impedance but with solid state it might be to low. Maybe i must look for a transformer to have a better ratio between the 2 devices. The new virtue circuits being so small i can put them anywhere where the influence of a little mismatch would be very minimal.
Sincere greetings, edward