[noiseless]

Thanks, Vinnie!
Do you think the tube stage will drive happily 2 x Naim-clone mono-blocks in parallel/bi-amp configuration per channel, please?
Each mono-block has 22K Ohm input impedance so two of them in parallel will be seen like 10K Ohm load - is this high enough for the tubes or a buffer stage will be preferred, as well?

As for the volume pots, I don't have much personal experience except with the Alps but if you can provide price for all the options and based on your experience and recommendation people will be able to make their choices easier, I suppose.

Best,
Ivo

[munosmario]

Thanks, Vinnie!
Do you think the tube stage will drive happily 2 x Naim-clone mono-blocks in parallel/bi-amp configuration per channel, please?
Each mono-block has 22K Ohm input impedance so two of them in parallel will be seen like 10K Ohm load - is this high enough for the tubes or a buffer stage will be preferred, as well?

As for the volume pots, I don't have much personal experience except with the Alps but if you can provide price for all the options and based on your experience and recommendation people will be able to make their choices easier, I suppose.

Best,
Ivo

Have same related issue, Vinnie...more specifically, what is the output impedance of Tube RCA analog output pair?

Thanks,

Mario

[Vinnie R.]

Have same related issue, Vinnie...more specifically, what is the output impedance of Tube RCA analog output pair?

Thanks,

Mario

Guys,

I posted this earlier in the thread.  Output impedance is less than 1k (I believe it is actually less than 500 ohm - I need to confirm), and I have tested it driving 10k loads with ease.  It will be fine with 10k loads or higher.  It probably can drive lower than 10k loads, but I have not tested that.

No need for any additional buffering if you are driving two 22k input amps in parallel.

I'll look into those volume controls and pricing.  Best bang-for-the-buck will be the Remote Alps Blue Velvet pot.  Most expensive
will be TVC's.  Not sure how they would stack up against Tortuga's offerings, or a remote Goldpoint stepped attenuator.

Vinnie

[munosmario]

Thanks , Vinnie. Will much appreciate if you could  confirm actual value of output impedance in final product. Intended use would be for a bi-amp configuration using a Passive Line Level X-Over, where, as you know, actual values of impedances at I/O's are important for correct implementation.

Thanks,

Mario

[noiseless]

Vinnie, thanks for the update - I must have missed that info for the output impedance, I am sorry!
But I am happy the tubes can drive 10K Ohm without a problem and with the integrated volume pot this means one pre-amp unit less in the signal path.

Ivo

[finsup]

Looking forward to hearing smargo's comments.

Some did email me about installing the Isabella R.E. preamp board on the back panel... you sick and twisted individual you!  I love it! 

Vinnie

What are the implications of doing this?

[Vinnie R.]

Thanks , Vinnie. Will much appreciate if you could  confirm actual value of output impedance in final product. Intended use would be for a bi-amp configuration using a Passive Line Level X-Over, where, as you know, actual values of impedances at I/O's are important for correct implementation.

Hi Mario,

- I tested it with the stock JJ E88CC tube.  Output impedance is a low 180 ohms (0.18k).  You should get fine results driving any load >5k.

- I also tested a JJ ECC83 (12AX7) and the output impedance was ~ 700 ohms (0.7k)... still under 1k and that would be fine driving any load >10k.

Vinnie, thanks for the update - I must have missed that info for the output impedance, I am sorry!
But I am happy the tubes can drive 10K Ohm without a problem and with the integrated volume pot this means one pre-amp unit less in the signal path.

Hi Ivo,

No problem - it's a fairly dense thread already, so some things are probably going to need to be repeated here and there.

Some did email me about installing the Isabella R.E. preamp board on the back panel... you sick and twisted individual you!  I love it! 
Vinnie

"What are the implications of doing this?"

Hi finsup,

I haven't really looked much into it, and it is probably too early for me to get into, but I will take a shot at explaining it:

For someone who only needs single-ended RCA outputs, there is enough space on the HAP-Z1ES's rear panel to fit the Isabella Renaissance Edition board.  This would allow for 2 sets of RCA inputs (e.g. for a Phonostage, or other analog sources), 2 sets of volume controlled RCA outputs, and a 0/12dB gain switch.  I would think that 0dB would be fine for most (preserving the ~ 2Vrms output voltage), but 12dB could be welcome with power amps with less gain, or when a low output phonostage is connected.

Why would one want to use the Isabella board instead of the tube buffers already posted above?

- I'm not going to lie - the Isabella preamp board is even better sounding! 

- Can accept 6H30s as well as 6922's  (BUT DOES NOT ACCPET 12AX7, sorry).

- Already has RCA inputs that can be switched (relay controlled on the actual preamp board) - so only an input select switch that controls the relays would be needed to select the Sony's output stage, or one of the other 2 analog inputs.

- It would also mean adding a remote volume control, and you essentially get a modded Z1ES with built-in preamplifier, all rear-mounted for very clean layout.  No need for interconnects to pass to another preamp. 

- Could be powered by an external Black Lightning LiFePO4 battery power supply for the ultimate results  , or we can power from an internal mounted linear power supply like we are doing with the RWA-Z1ES-1.

- Will be less expensive than buying a separate Isabella preamplifier.

-----

The part that still would need to be figured out is the remote volume control (I'd want it to work with the Sony remote and iPad/iPhone/Android App), and the input select switch (it would be much easier to put it on the rear, but if it needs to be on the front, it might require drilling the enclosure and I'm not sure how equipped I am for doing that  ). 

With regards to the volume control option, I was thinking that it would only be controlled via the Sony remote or the App, but every time you turn it OFF it would bring the volume down to MIN (so you always know it is muted when you start listening and then you set the level).  I could also more easily put the actual volume knob on the back (for those who require a physical knob to turn), but I don't see that it is that necessary.

So there you have it - the crazy idea that could be insanely good!    It would mostly appeal to those who want a built-in preamp.  But it could actually be used without a volume control (fixed outputs) and we still can allow for an analog input or two. 

I wanted to let you all know what is possible, even if these ideas are outside the RWA-Z1ES-1 / 2 / 3 modifications.  They could still very well be excellent options to offer.  One can pick the mod package that best suites their needs and budget. 

Let me know what YOU guys think. 

Vinnie

[OzarkTom]

Hey Tom,

Been waiting for you to chime in since it was mentioned that you had ordered one.

How about some comments and maybe comparisons with what you have been using until now or have used in the past. Looking for feedback mainly on sound quality as we have a pretty good handle on functionality.

Come on - spill the beans!!!

Cheers,
Dave

Well Dave, just get you one of these Sony's. I have over 100 hours on mine now. Sony has hit a home run with this unit, no doubt, Vinnie will hit a grand slam with his modded one. Now you don't have to get any mods for the Hap to sound good, stock it sounds very organic, non-digital, non-fatiguing. In SS DACs, I have owned Antelope Gold-voltikus, Antelope Black, Eximus DP1, and listened to the Weiss 202 Dac. The Sony easily is better than these DACs with the Mac mini.

I have also owned the Lampizator 3 and AMR DP777 tube units. The Sony approaches the sound of these units, very airy and musical. The Hap has even a wider soundstage than those two units, but not as tall. No doubt Vinnie's tube mod will remedy that. For those that like to constantly improve their system, just buy one of Vinnie's mods one at a time. Or buy them all.

Sony did a wonderful job offering this unit to us and now Vinnie will make the Hap sound even better.

[munosmario]

Thanks a lot, Vinnie. That's exactly what I needed. Interesting thing learned is that output impedance changes depending on tube type....does it remain (or tend to remain) the same across tube brands for same  tube type, as one tube-roll?

Mario

[noiseless]

Vinnie, similar question as the above, please - which tube parameter affects and is there a formula to calculate the output impedance of your output stage, please?
Thanks,
Ivo

[dspringham]

 "In SS DACs, I have owned Antelope Gold-voltikus, Antelope Black, Eximus DP1, and listened to the Weiss 202 Dac. The Sony easily is better than these DACs with the Mac mini."

Thanks Tom,

This was just the information I was looking for. I'm quite surprised that you felt that the HAP sonically surpassed the fine DACS that you mentioned - some very high caliber performers. I am using an Antelope Zodiac+ with a unibody MacMini (SSD) and Audirvana Plus. I love the functionality of the Sony but do not want to go backwards SQ-wise.

Being largely computer literate I had little problem with the intricacies of configuring and running a Mac optimized for computer audio processing, however the Sony solution just seems so seamless and integrated in it's ability to play the gamut of currently available audio files.

The nice part for me is that this deck is the same price here in Canada as it is in the US (even though our currency is presently at a more than 10% disadvantage and Sony offers a 30 day full money back guarantee. Seems like a can't lose proposition.

Tom, are there anymore comments you can offer with regards to sound quality as your comparisons go along way towards legitimizing the HAP as a "no compromise" digital music file platform.

Have you tried any DSD files for evaluation?

Thank you in advance for you're additional info.

Best,
Dave

[finsup]

Why would one want to use the Isabella board instead of the tube buffers already posted above?

Thanks for the detailed information Vinnie. 

I wanted to let you all know what is possible, even if these ideas are outside the RWA-Z1ES-1 / 2 / 3 modifications.  They could still very well be excellent options to offer.  One can pick the mod package that best suites their needs and budget. 

Are you looking at adding a digital input?  That would make a lot of guys who have different sources happy they could use the Sony DAC. 
XLR outputs?
 

[OzarkTom]

Being largely computer literate I had little problem with the intricacies of configuring and running a Mac optimized for computer audio processing, however the Sony solution just seems so seamless and integrated in it's ability to play the gamut of currently available audio files.

Tom, are there anymore comments you can offer with regards to sound quality as your comparisons go along way towards legitimizing the HAP as a "no compromise" digital music file platform.

Have you tried any DSD files for evaluation?

No DSD files yet Dave. I just wanted to listen what I am the most familiar with until broken in. Antelope Zodiacs in my system sounded more digital, Sony sounds more analog, but does not give up the detail at all. I always had problems with Amarra, computer, and Itunes always shutting off, so that is one of the reasons I had to try this. This is well built, weighing 31 pounds.

Another positive I found out this morning, high WAF. My wife can easily turn it on and play the internet radio. Before she never would touch it. Also she likes the appearance, it gets rid of of extra components and cables in the living room.

For Sony offering a 30 day trial, Sony is very confident in this product.

[Vinnie R.]

All,

Just got this up, and it clearly needs more work.  But it's a start and it makes it official now! 

http://redwineaudio.com/mods/rwa-z1es-x

Thanks a lot, Vinnie. That's exactly what I needed. Interesting thing learned is that output impedance changes depending on tube type....does it remain (or tend to remain) the same across tube brands for same  tube type, as one tube-roll?

Hi Mario,

It should remain close as you tube roll, assuming the tubes you put in are in good shape.  I'd say within +/- 20% (probably better than that) of what I mentioned above.

Vinnie, similar question as the above, please - which tube parameter affects and is there a formula to calculate the output impedance of your output stage, please?
Thanks,
Ivo

Hi Ivo,

There is no formula for my tube stage design where you can plug a parameter on the datasheet and correlate it to the output impedance.  For now, I feel comfortable stating (as it pertains to MY tube stage design):

Output impedance for 6922 family (180 ohms +/- 20%)
Output impedance for 12AX7 family (700 ohms +/- 20%)

If I ever find any evidence that shows me otherwise, I'll be sure to update.  The 6922 and 12AX7 tube specs from mfgr. to mfgr. over the years has not deviated that much to show me (again, in this tube stage), that you'd get more deviation than this in terms of output impedance unless you have a tube that's old and beat. 

Are you looking at adding a digital input?  That would make a lot of guys who have different sources happy they could use the Sony DAC. 
XLR outputs?

Hi finsup,

Regarding doing the RWA-Z1ES-1-BAL (the same mod but to the balanced output stage instead of the single-ended stage), YES - I do plan to offer this.  But I haven't tested it yet, and I am probably going to be looking into the power supply stage mods next... but I'll get to the BAL soon enough...

As for adding a digital input - here's the rub:

This is a highly dedicated player that has a direct feed from the FPGA (where the I2S signals are generated) to the two d/a chips.  To bring in a digital signal externally, it would require that the signal (be it USB, or SPDIF) be converted to I2S to feed the d/a chips.  That is easy enough to do... but where it gets messy is adding the switching to select between the FPGA's I2S signal (when playing the Sony), or the external digital source's converted over I2S signal.  ANY type of switching that is done to select between the two will have an impact on what you feed the d/a converters (so both I2S feeds have the potential of not being as clean when you do switching like this).  I2S are "board level" signals and are delicate.  Their feeds should be impedance matched from source to sink (e.g. From FPGA to the d/a converters in the Sony, and upon scoping them, they do look very clean).  After adding the switch, which is usually done via a MUX chip, you will be degrading these delicate I2S lines .... adding jitter and other distortions. 

Sony actually does allow for eternal digital inputs on their HAP-S1 player.  This is not their flagship product (it is $1000 less than the Z1ES, even though it adds external digital inputs and a built-in speaker amplifier!), but after looking at pictures of the inside of the S1, I can see why.  They are not even trying to come close to the Z1ES's performance, and in that case, switching I2S lines probably doesn't matter as much because I doubt they are nearly as clean as the Z1ES's to begin with.  Note - I am not saying this as a matter of fact (I haven't tested and compared), but this is my suspicion from what I see inside the S1.  And I have to be honest and say that I do not know if adding an external digital input (and the switching) could easily be done in such as way as to not have an impact on the I2S feed.

It would take a lot of people interested in this feature for me to even want to look into it.  Sure - I can probably whip up something in a day or two that works and I could offer.  But how good will it be?  If it were to give up anything that the RWA-Z1ES-1 is delivering, I'd say forget it.   I also believe it kind of goes against what this player is all about, which is all-in-one simplicity, with fewer compromises.  I don't know if I made this point clear before, but for $2K, SONY REALLY NAILED IT!!!!  There is a good reason why I was very excited to get back into modding home audio components again... it is that good!  I've been to few dealers who use much more expensive products (that do similar things as the Sony), and I'd LOVE to one day compare them because I don't hear them whipping the Z1ES's butt - especially modded.     

Vinnie

[kngale1]

It would take a lot of people interested in this feature for me to even want to look into it.  Sure - I can probably whip up something in a day or two that works and I could offer.  But how good will it be?  If it were to give up anything that the RWA-Z1ES-1 is delivering, I'd say forget it.   I also believe it kind of goes against what this player is all about, which is all-in-one simplicity, with fewer compromises.  I don't know if I made this point clear before, but for $2K, SONY REALLY NAILED IT!!!!  There is a good reason why I was very excited to get back into modding home audio components again... it is that good!  I've been to few dealers who use much more expensive products (that do similar things as the Sony), and I'd LOVE to one day compare them because I don't hear them whipping the Z1ES's butt - especially modded.     

Vinnie

The analogy is adding inputs to a fuel tank in a car.  One via airplane ...   Why?  Why not just fill up and go?   I don't get it ...   A Dac is car without a fuel tank and HAP-Z1ES is a car with a fuel tank.

I guess you can add all the available digital inputs, jack up the price and now it competes with similar higher price Dacs.   More capabilities, more $$ so must be superior?   

[OzarkTom]

The analogy is adding inputs to a fuel tank in a car.  One via airplane ...   Why?  Why not just fill up and go?   I don't get it ...   A Dac is car without a fuel tank and HAP-Z1ES is a car with a fuel tank.

I guess you can add all the available digital inputs, jack up the price and now it competes with similar higher price Dacs.   More capabilities, more $$ so must be superior?   

In stock form it competes with much higher priced DACs, Vinnie is just super-charging it.

[Vinnie R.]

The analogy is adding inputs to a fuel tank in a car.  One via airplane ...   Why?  Why not just fill up and go?   I don't get it ...   A Dac is car without a fuel tank and HAP-Z1ES is a car with a fuel tank.

I guess you can add all the available digital inputs, jack up the price and now it competes with similar higher price Dacs.   More capabilities, more $$ so must be superior?   

Hi kngale1,

Ok - you lost me on this one!     

In stock form it competes with much higher priced DACs, Vinnie is just super-charging it.

Oh, yes!  Making it "more better-er!" 

And one more thing about adding an external digital input(s)... you would really want to do everything you can to minimize GND loops and GND
noise from the external digital source(s) from contaminating the clean digital GND of the Z1ES (especially with battery conversion modification package that will be coming out next month...).  Galvanic isolation, for starters...

Vinnie

[kngale1]

Hi kngale1,

Ok - you lost me on this one!     

Gas tank is equivalent to HDD in HAP-Z1ES.   If there's a gas tank to hold the fuel, why do you need inputs to fuel the vehicle real-time.   

[Vinnie R.]

Gas tank is equivalent to HDD in HAP-Z1ES.   If there's a gas tank to hold the fuel, why do you need inputs to fuel the vehicle real-time.   

Ok - got it now! 


UPDATES

Today I have been working on RWA-Z1ES-2.  This adds upgrades the both power supply boards, and I also added a C-L-C power input filter.

All 20 diodes that made up the 5 main bridge rectifiers (yes, there are FIVE separate main power feeds in this beast) have been replaced
with high-current, super fast switching SiC diodes. 

Power supply filtering caps on both the analog and digital boards have been replaced with Nichicon MUSE.

I had to raise the analog power supply board about 0.25" with standoffs in order to fit the larger, beefier under-mount diodes.

I still need to replace certain caps on the audio board (to complete the RWA-Z1ES-2 modification package), but I am going to first listen to how it sounds so far.

Will report more soon...

Vinnie

[kngale1]

I still need to replace certain caps on the audio board (to complete the RWA-Z1ES-2 modification package), but I am going to first listen to how it sounds so far.

Will report more soon...

Vinnie

Vinnie, what output caps do you use?    Any plans to offer cap options?   Duelund, Jupiter ...