[grsimmon]

One of my goals (perhaps not realistic) is to have an audio system that is within my budget,  but made in either North America, Europe, or Japan.  Rogue Audio might be a place for me to start;  although I read that Hypex has some of their modules made in China now - might have to look the other way on that one.  How finely do I want to split the hairs    Anyways,  I came across the following article,  a couple years old,  but I thought the author had some interesting points.


http://atane.net/2012/07/14/offshoring-hifi-good-for-profit-bad-for-everything-else/

[Photon46]

Thanks for sharing that link. The author bemoans issues that are well trodden and there's nothing new in the sentiments expressed. To bitch and moan about the trends discussed is empty rhetoric, you cannot change the way publicly traded companies conduct business now. The primary thing that matters for the board of directors and managing executives is maintaining maximum shareholder value. Long term consequences to the brand rank below maximizing the next quarter's profit. Workers in every country are competing against their lowest paid counterparts the world over. I suppose that at some point in future, world wide competitive wage pressures could result in a "meet in the middle" scenario that will look pretty good if you're living in Vietnam or China and pretty crappy if you're looking at from the standpoint of the German or American worker. In some cases, the artisan craftsmanship needed for something like Sonus Faber speakers could be developed in China if the company is willing to put in the development effort. If any one is familiar with the story of Eastman guitars, that might prove my point. They make arch top jazz guitars of quite nice refinement for prices so much lower than American luthiers it's shocking. No, they aren't the apogee of guitar craftsmanship, but they are of exceptional value.

As to your quest to build a system of Japanese, USA, and European origin, just don't split your hairs too finely. I imagine it's pretty hard to find a product these days that doesn't have at least some sub-components that are Chinese sourced. I realized the other day I've ended up with a "United Nations of Audio" system; German speakers and turntable, British tonearm, Danish phono cartridge, Polish Phono preamplifier, Japanese cd/sacd player, Italian power amp, and American preamplifier, power conditioner, & cables.

[Sparky14]

Yep, I have had a hard time finding new hifi equipment that isn't somehow made in China.

Can't solve the hardware problem, but for software, I have committed to not buy any Chinese music. So far, I am doing good on that one. 

[rockadanny]

Sparky - No China music? Then you really need this one:



Hypnotic, throat-singing like you've not heard before! 

[bacobits1]

Exactly, not much you can do about it.
The only way around it would be to patronize US made boutique Manufacturers and even then the
included parts may be made in China as stated. You need to choose carefully the offerings from there.
You for example surely can't put EE in that category and others too.
 

[Folsom]

I don't want things to be made in China... I don't believe it's a function of people just wanting more profit.

The difference comes from a simple fact, most people can't afford to buy a lot of gear. It isn't the profit margins. It is things like the fact that the adjusted minimum wage not based on things like T-shirts from overseas - in other words, realistic inflation - is actually somewhere around $20/hr.

It's not the money saving, it's the money available, that's driving this situation. And the audiophile world can't play the inflation game because you'll hear the difference. Let's say I have something made in China, and it cut the cost less than a $1k on a $5k product (I'm not certain I could save anything without having a different product), the problem is for people that can't pay $4k+ for a product period.

For these reasons I'm all about looking to advance technology so people can still attain bliss with music at price ranges they can achieve. Unfortunately this doesn't apply very well to speakers because they are labor intensive, construction intensive, and heavy. That's all after the R&D too, which is obviously a burden given the first situation of their very essence. Changing a speaker box is an ordeal compared to changing capacitors or whatever.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to change the world and all, but there are limits to the function when you do your best, not to also jeopardize your own well being. But if everyone wants to play the game, and take up an interest in doing their best to support their neighbors, things will shift greatly. Until then I'll just fantasize about becoming Superman.

[Mark Korda]

GRsimmon, I love audio but feel this way about quality. I needed a can opener. I bought one at Wallmart 99 cents made in China. What a deal! It never made it thru the first can of B+M baked beans from Portland Me. where I live .The metal in the toothed wheel devise melted. I dug out a American GI WW2 little opener,10 cents at the surplus and have been using it since....buy American if you live here....Mark Korda

[SteveFord]

It's really not all that difficult to source non-Chinese products except for this weird law:
if 51% of the price of a product comes from one country then that particular country can be listed as the country of origin.
That's in the US but I think that's universal.
The box costs 51% of the total cost and is made in the US.  The guts come from China.  It gets stamped Made In the USA and you buy it and it's perfectly legal.
Where does the product really come from? You don't really know.

[viggen]

Then, buy vintage.  I think my 1950s Altec Lansing is all US made.  My parents are made in China though... so does it matter if my gears are 100% non-Chinese but my ears are 100% Chinese??   

I think the gist of the article is more a complaint about CEOs not "getting" it which as expounded times over and over again that CEOs are not incentivized to be in it for the long haul than actually about where something is made.

[Tyson]

That is part of the reason I switched to DIY.  I've built 2 sets of speakers so far (and a 3rd is not too far off), rebuilt 2 tube amps, built an F5 First Watt amp from scratch, and am building a modified Burning Amp right now. 

Part of the problem with our hobby is that people are ignorant of and intimidated by the mysterious functionings inside these pretty black boxes.  My advice - get some solder and a Hako and start building some kits.  Then you will KNOW that it's made in the USA - your house, to be exact

[newzooreview]

One of my goals (perhaps not realistic) is to have an audio system that is within my budget,  but made in either North America, Europe, or Japan.  Rogue Audio might be a place for me to start;  although I read that Hypex has some of their modules made in China now - might have to look the other way on that one.  How finely do I want to split the hairs    Anyways,  I came across the following article,  a couple years old,  but I thought the author had some interesting points.
http://atane.net/2012/07/14/offshoring-hifi-good-for-profit-bad-for-everything-else/

There are tons of good options:

Odyssey Audio: amps, preamps, and speakers
dB Audio: DACs
Reality Cables
Salk Speakers
Lampizator DACs
Harbeth Speakers
HEED Audio amps, preamps, DACs
PI Audio (A/C filters, batter conversions)

These are all designed and manufactured outside of China. There might be a component part in there from China but it's tested and guaranteed by someone else.

My biggest (and repeated) problems have been with anything going through assembly and testing in China. Speakers with bent binding posts, tubes that short out (expensive, high-end ones), unreliable amps, and dead on arrival DACs.

On the other hand, if my Tranquility SE DAC does have a resistor or something inside that was made in China, I know it was tested to meet spec and work reliably and if anything does go wrong the DAC goes back to someone I can call or e-mail daily who will personally turn it around within a week and take it upon himself to install any upgrades he may have available.

Odyssey Audio has been quite vocal in their concerns: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87703.msg864577#msg864577

[Folsom]

The small electronic parts made in china, resistors and such, are less of a quality problem and more of a question of being genuine. That is, depending on supplier. (There is no problem with several reputable ones, ebay though....)

Basically everyone uses small electronic parts from China; there isn't a choice. Frankly it's of zero concern from reputable suppliers. The only problem seems to be national interest of our money flowing out of hand forever.

Manufactures in the U.S., using these parts, often match values, test, and disregard anything that doesn't look or work right.

[dynasuar]

Any quality concerns for "Made in Taiwan" audio?

[Bemopti123]

Any quality concerns for "Made in Taiwan" audio?

Made in Taiwan is usually of high quality but that does not guarantee the concerns of where some of the key small components used in Made in Taiwan products came from, China.  But if I had a choice of purchasing an item between Made in China and Made in Taiwan, that would be  a no brainer.  Taiwanese manufacturers have been at it for a long time.  I remember the first off shoring of reputable brands went to Taiwan (Musical Fidelity) while other more famous manufacturers that began off shoring late, have their wares made in China.

[wushuliu]

That is part of the reason I switched to DIY.  I've built 2 sets of speakers so far (and a 3rd is not too far off), rebuilt 2 tube amps, built an F5 First Watt amp from scratch, and am building a modified Burning Amp right now. 

Part of the problem with our hobby is that people are ignorant of and intimidated by the mysterious functionings inside these pretty black boxes.  My advice - get some solder and a Hako and start building some kits.  Then you will KNOW that it's made in the USA - your house, to be exact

Yep and if one is too afraid to DIY pay someone else to build the project for you because you're likely to still come out ahead compared to retail AND you will have contributed directly to the economy!

[Charles Calkins]

 
 Lot's of things we buy these are made in China or some other Asian country.
 Shoes. Clothing and a bunch of other stuff.
 Just the way things are these days. Cheaper to have stuff made in Asia than here.

 Years ago I bought a Nad 218 THX amp. Nad is an English company. Great amp!!
 Guess what? It was made in Malaysia. How about that!! I'd like to get my hands on another one.

 And another thing!! Most of the steel works on the new S.F. Bay bridge came from China.

                                                          Cheers
                                                       Charlie

[Johnny2Bad]

Care should be taken that you do not put too great an emphasis on wages as a force in audio gear made in the People's Republic of China (PRC). As with any industrial or manufacturing situation, the infrastructure plays a much larger part in where you make what. Wages in the PRC for an uneducated labourer or farm worker averaged $2.33/hr (Chinese Official Statistics) in 2014. That is more than double the average wage for a similarly skilled worker in India, for example, and roughy equal to the wages in factories in Mexico. Wages in China are also on a steady rising trend, which translates into PRC wages rising above more nations every year.

It is NOT wages that drive the dominance of Chinese manufacturing in the electronics industry. It is the supply of workers (10,000 Chinese workers move from rural China to industrial jobs every month) and the factory typically provides free food and lodging (very basic, but it awaits you the day you are hired, right off the bus) for those who cannot afford to rent an apartment. Electricity is readily available in industrial grade infrastructure for new factories. A robust supply chain exists that is simple to tap into. China is the world's largest miner of rare earth minerals ... the very raw materials that are used to manufacture semiconductors and, for that matter, vacuum tubes. A robust steel and metals industry has been established. China has oil ... maybe not enough to support it's full economy, but they are not dependent on foreign supplies to the extent that most asian nations are.

There is a language barrier for western firms but no such barrier for native Chinese factory owners, and unlike in the west, Chinese industry has no tradition of secrecy when it comes to supply chains, where and how to source components, and who is buying the factory output. Ask and they simply tell you.

After the mines and steel mills were established, China started out in large scale manufacturing by producing not consumer goods, but industrial machinery. The result is any factory apparatus is available from local vendors ... this is the kind of advantage American, British and European manufacturers once had but no longer do, and is discounted or ignored as a factor when it is in fact a critical advantage. When you have a machinery industry, you can make any manufactured good without limits, because you can make the machines that automate factories. This is an infrastructural advantage that other low wage nations lack, and plays a critical role.

Finally there was currency manipulation whereby Chinese goods are less expensive abroad. You can complain about it all you want, but every nation has at one time or another, and most on an ongoing basis, manipulate currency to the advantage of their specific economic needs. The West taught them how it's done, and they would be fools for not taking advantage of the tools available to them. For a Chinese citizen, buying the products of the Chinese factories is a daunting task, due domestic taxes ... an iPhone costs twice or more in China as it does in the US; the electronics we see for sale on eBay as inexpensive are priced much higher in China at retail.

And so on. It is not about wages, although they are a factor, it's a gross simplification and you will never understand the issues affecting modern manufacturing if you focus on employee renumeration costs; it has a logical ring to it but in reality it is not totally irrelevant but is almost so.

[Folsom]

The reason other countries don't have the infrastructure is because no one wanted to invest where wages are high[er].

For smaller manufacturers one challenge with China is not having their designs ripped off.

[Johnny2Bad]

The reason other countries don't have the infrastructure is because no one wanted to invest where wages are high[er].

For smaller manufacturers one challenge with China is not having their designs ripped off.

We invested heavily during an event called World War II. Industrial production in North America in the 1950's has remarkable parallels with Chinese industrial production in the 21st century. In both cases the notable feature is the speed in which industrialization occurred ... China as recently as 2005 manufactured mostly machinery; agriculture was the largest sector in the economy. Few people even believed China could become an export economy in 2005; they were not even mentioned in the press, and it was that year when private enterprise was allowed to fully participate in the economy for the first time. Feel free to re-read that last sentence so it sinks in fully.

The result is China's GDP has quadrupled in only the last 16 years. People seem to think we've been talking China since forever. We haven't.

A mere ten years later it's mostly consumer goods. Note that I'm referring to exports here ... both nations were capable of supporting domestic demand before these watershed events, but the export market is what drove the greatest economic expansion.

Make no mistake about it; China has learned every single thing it's now implementing and exploiting from the west. 100 years ago it was the US that ignored copyright law, printing British books without compensation. As the economy grew in the copyright-generating sectors, not the least of which was Hollywood rather than the "old way" via publishing, the laws changed to reflect the value of American IP. China will do the same (it is beginning to do so now). And so on.

It is not what they are doing that is remarkable, it's how fast. Everything else is first-year economics, although practiced with an enlightened hand (unlike, say, the USSR or modern day Russia, a nation who has the resources to beat China in almost every category, and whom excels at nearly every single academic pursuit but fails miserably at economics, and that after a hundred years of practical lessons to boot. India is another nation that seems to enjoy ignoring the obvious paths available to them, two steps forward but one step back.

[FullRangeMan]

One of my goals (perhaps not realistic) is to have an audio system that is within my budget,  but made in either North America, Europe, or Japan.  Rogue Audio might be a place for me to start;  although I read that Hypex has some of their modules made in China now - might have to look the other way on that one.  How finely do I want to split the hairs    Anyways,  I came across the following article,  a couple years old,  but I thought the author had some interesting points.


http://atane.net/2012/07/14/offshoring-hifi-good-for-profit-bad-for-everything-else/

This article is in japanese language, I suppose all posters japanese are much better than mine.