Next step advice needed...(newbie)

Jack_Geo · « **on:** 15 Feb 2003, 04:07 pm »

Hi all...

First I'd like to thank everyone who's been helping me behind the scenes via email...and per Tyson's suggestion I'm taking my question out here in the forum.

Basically, I'm a neophyte to this whole scene, and am pretty intimidated by the nomenclature as well as the cost for audiophila. That said, I'm slowly starting my system and I'd love for y'all to give me some suggestions as to where I should go from here...inexpensively.

Here's my setup now...

Marantz SR-880 receiver (a bit dated, admittedly, but sounds pretty nice) powering the Energy's (below)
Old Fisher CA-880 Intergrated Stereo amp 200W/ch (& tuner not in use) powereing the:
Old Fisher big, honkin' speakers...front left and right
Energy Take 5 surrounds and center channel
No sub
Mitsubishi HDTV
Panasonic RP-91 DVD/DVD-Audio player (used as a CD player)
Samsung SIT-TS160 DirecTV/HDTV Tuner
Mitsubishi VCR

I'm buying a pair of VMPS RM2 Neo's used from a forum member, and this represents my first step into better equipment. My second step will be adding the Large Ribbon Center soon. Surrounds will be added later, or I'll just use the Energy's for the time being.

My question is simple. I'm on a budget, and I'd like to know where I should go from here...keeping in mind I'd like to keep things as inexpensive as possible.

Maybe a tube / SS amp(s) for the VMPS's?
Outboard DAC?
New integrated amp?
Other?

I'm open to all suggestions, as I'm sure most (if not all) of you have more knowledge in your pinky finger than I do. I've got to start somewhere, though, and I'm eager and willing to learn.

Thank you in advance for all of your assistance.

Jack

PS...One more question. I've read in numerous posts that the RM2's sound best bi-amped (most say tubes on top and SS on the woofers). My question is on how to hook this up. Let's say I'm talking about the front left speaker...would I split the interconnect cable coming out of (for instance) my Marantz Receiver, front left, and then run this split signal to the inputs of two amps...then hook up the front left channel of the one amp to the woofer binding posts and the front left channel of the second amp to the tweeter binding posts? This is just theoretical, because I don't have the amps (yet) to do this...I'm just wondering if this is the correct way to do it. Thanks!

MaxCast · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 04:41 pm »

To get some real useful suggestions you should think about your overall goals, budget, and time frame.

Goals. Improve upon 2 channel first and multi-channel later? Seperates? The best you can do all at once?

Budget and time frame. How much available now? How much available x months from now? And then how much x more months from now?

Here is an example. I have $x now and I will have $x in 4 months and $x in 6 more months. I would like to maximize two channel performance first and multi-channel secondary, eventually moving into seperates. I would like to keep the door open to bi-amping in the future. Etc.

And yes, that is the way to bi-amp using the internal crossover of the RM2's.

eric the red · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 04:46 pm »

Here's some advice: Stop now and get out before it's too late! Sell everything, buy a boom-box and run away! Take up a cheap hobby like knitting or reading! Beware of the Audiogon classifieds!

Marbles · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 04:48 pm »

Jack,

The parts of a system are:

Source (CDP for instance)
pre-amp
amp
speakers
Cables

Always mess with the cables last.....

Your new speakers are set, so you don't have to worry about that.

Your Marantz is doing both pre and amp duties, and your RP91 is the source.

If it were me, I would add a nice DAC to the RP91 next.

Jack_Geo · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 05:54 pm »

Great advice, all...thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback.

Eric the Red: Believe me, I've thought about it. I even have a boom box out in the garage, so I wouldn't even have to buy one. I do have one comment, though...reading, if you actually buy the books vs. getting them from the library, is definitely not an inexpensive hobby. I've got 1000+ hardbacks on my shelves (and in boxes) and I shudder to think how much I've spent on books over the years. Knitting, on the other hand...

Maxcast: I guess I never really thought about it that way. I guess my overall goal is to make my system sound as good (to me!) as it can given the resources available in no real time frame. I'm in no hurry. That said, I have about a grand to spend now (outside of the the speaker purchases) and have no idea how much I'll have in x months. Since this hobby is new, I haven't worked it into my "hobby budget." I would like to maximize 2-channel performance, and yes, I'd eventually like to move into separates. I enjoy HT and haven't even dabbled in multi-channel audio (the Marantz doesn't have inputs for it, even though the RP91 has the capability)..so I guess I don't know what I'm missing on that front. If bi-amping improves the sound as much as everyone says, I'd like to move in that direction eventually.

Marbles: Thanks for the simplistic explanation...it's helpful for me to think in those terms! How much of a difference will adding a DAC make? Do you have any suggestions for an inexpensive DAC that will tide me over for awhile, keeping in mind I'd like to add some additional amplification (a la bi-amping) fairly soon? Is there a "DAC's for Newbies" place to go read about the relative benefits or drawbacks? Any particular models to look for on Audiogon or from the vendors on this site?

Thanks again!

Jack

Marbles · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 06:20 pm »

The DAC will make a very big difference....I have the RP91

So I can speak from experience.

There are quite a few out there.

Some ones to look at are: a stock ART D/IO, a Bolder Modded ART DI/O,
Scott Nixon Tube or Scott Nixon SS DAC, A perp Tech P3a, or a Dan Wright Modded Perp P3a...Mike Galusha is offering a killer deal on one of these right now if it is still available...

Or you could have Dan Wright mod your RP91.

There may be other Dacs, I think I heard about a David White one (White Noise).

I'm sure others will chime in...

Do a search in the digital domain under DACS and see what comes up.

eric the red · « **Reply #6 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 07:05 pm »

I was just joking

My only advice is to save some $$$ and buy pre-owned from a reliable seller with feedback, and if the deal's too good to be true....well

Jack_Geo · « **Reply #7 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 08:52 pm »

The ART D/IO looks pretty good for starters...lots of good reviews. It's pretty inexpensive, as well...at least by my calculations. I think I might start with the stock and see where that gets me...eventually sending it in for the smART mod & power supply.

What accessories / cables / etc. would I need to hook it up in my aforementioned system? I read that it is for pro use, so I assume I need some kind of conversion connectors or something.

Finally, why will a DAC make a bigger impact than say, new amps? Just curious.

Thanks again.

Tyson · « **Reply #8 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 09:13 pm »

For the RM-2's, I think the amps will make a bigger impact than the DAC. If they are anything like the 40's, they need a good stiff amp to really come to life. I'd go for a good amp first, then go for the smArt DIO.

To hook up a DAC, you need a digital interconnect to connect the CD's players digital output to the DAC, and then a pair of analogue interconnects to connect the DAC to your preamp.

rosconey · « **Reply #9 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 09:30 pm »

more juice baby

Marbles · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 09:38 pm »

Amps will make a big impact, but unless you have pre-outs on your Marantz, you will need to get a new pre-amp too.

Your budget was around $1000 in the near term and I just don't see any amp/pre combo in that price range that will improve your sytem more than spending something less than that amount on a DAC.

When you get enough money together, then logicaly the amp/pre would be the next upgrade.

For instance one of the new IRD pre-amps paired with an Odyssey DM Stratos.

This combo would be around $2500 though give or take and would be killer if the hype on the IRD's is to be believed (and I believe it).

ABEX · « **Reply #11 on:** 15 Feb 2003, 10:16 pm »

Amps!Someone say"Amps!"

I have done alot of research of Amps and Pre-Amps in the last year and I think that Monarchy SM-70 Pro's and a FT Audio LW-1 would be the way to go.
Don't let the lack of a remote deter you because they will have an Add-On Remote in the future.

You can get that combo for under $1K.

For HT you can add an HT Processor or use one from a reciever.I have a Lexicon CP-3Pro that is better than what you'd get from say an HK Reciever of what I have been told.You can find one for under $400.The only drawback is the lack of AC-3,but the LW-1 Pre-Amp will allow you to keep your 2-channel seperated from your HT which is what we are in this for really I think.

A Modified B&K ST-202--Big difference from the stock version
Forte'--Class A amp are also alternatives for amps.
Outlaw has $300 Mono's,but don't use them with a Passive Pre due to the Impedance rating.

For a amp for the CC and Surrounds get a rotel or B&K 5channel.You do not need to go overboard for power for those channels!They do not need it unless you have real inefficient speaker's and impedance that goes to 4ohms.Then you might need alot of power for those channels.

Here's my system!Happt Hunting

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/3684.html

Jack_Geo · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Feb 2003, 12:26 am »

So many choices...

Ok...with a little more help from the esteemed gentlemen at audiocircle, I just may be able to pull off both a DAC and an amp.

The Marantz SR-880 does, in fact, have pre-outs, so let's assume I'm gonna keep this unit for awhile. I'm actually using them now, running the fronts off of that old-school Fisher integrated from the pre-outs of the Marantz. I have a digital optical cable running from the RP91 to the 880 right now, so I assume I can use that same cable to connect the RP91 to the D/IO. I've got some analog interconnects laying around (nothing special) to go from the DAC to the 880. I suppose I'd just go to the CD input? From there, it's business as usual, correct?

Stock ART D/IO ~$130 as my first purchase, and I'll get it modded down the line.

So...that leaves around $800 for an amp...I'll take a look and see what Audiogon has to offer for the B&K ST-202, Forte', etc. Any other good performers in this price range? How about the LeAmps or the IRD mono's?

More juice, huh? Seems like you can never get enough...

Thanks!

Jack

Wayne1 · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Feb 2003, 12:50 am »

Jack,

The ART DI/O does NOT accept an optical input, only coaxial.

The stock DI/O uses 1/4" phone jacks for output and the output level is 7 V instead of the consumer audio norm of 2 V.

There does exist the possibility that you may overload the input section of your Marantz using the DI/O in its stock form.

You might be better off to put all the money into an amp. You may be able to find a used Stratos with cap upgrade for the money you have to spend.

Rocket · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Feb 2003, 01:38 am »

hello jack,

i think you've had pretty good advice so far.

you could as a cheap alternative have a clock upgrade installed in your cdp which will improve the sound significantly.

contact tony at the below email address he make the g&d clocks which i have installed in the cdp cost is around $100 us.

[email protected]

i have seen used pass aleph 3's for sale on audiogon which are a really great amp in fact i think upscale audio has one second hand for sale. the ird amps get good reviews as well from ppl here on audiocircle.

anyway good luck.

regards

rod

MaxCast · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Feb 2003, 05:20 am »

I just love spending other peoples money. For a lot all at once you could get a used pair of MB-100's, a Scott Nixon DAC or DIO with basic mods, and preamp for around $1400.

If you blow your wad on only one piece I don't know what to tell you to get first. They all make a difference. Eric's advise is good. Buy used from a reliable source if you can.

Hang on buddy it gets rough from now on....

Carlman · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Feb 2003, 05:49 am »

I started in this similarly, with a mixed bag of whatnot and no budget in mind. It's turned out that the budget is whatever I can get. As to suggesting equipment, that's tough since there are so many variables such as what you like, your music tastes, system goals, type of sound you enjoy from a system...

I have a friend who has been in the hifi biz for many years and knows my tastes. He's the only person who I trust when he says I'd like something. Even so, I have to hear something to see what it does.

I highly recommend going and listening to whatever you can. See if you can get a demo of 2 different amps at a hifi store. With the economy the way it is, many stores are happy just to have something to do. I'd explain that you're in a 'learning phase' and just want some understanding. Browse their used stuff and take note of it.

I have found much joy in this hobby, particularly 'the chase'. Researching and finding equipment can be fun. But, I think you should hear it instead of relying too much on advice from forums. You'll know your goals about a piece of your system once you've heard as few as 2-3 amps, subs, CD players, or etc. You'll know you like the smoothness of this or the roundness of that... warmth, brightness, control, imaging, etc.

As to a 1k budget... You can get 2 amps and a pre-amp with dual outs to truly biamp your speakers for under ~800 leaving you enough for a cheap DAC to boot. (Audible Illusions 2 and 2 B&K ST-140's, Haflers, or etc.) However, do you like the tube sound or the solid state sound? What do you like in a DAC?

I will admit DAC's and such are tough to hear in person sometimes... So, if you're looking for cheap, maybe a Soundstream DAC1... I sold one for $80 and it sounded pretty nice. Just to give a starting point.

Listen for what you like and you'll be able to ask better questions for gear choices down the road.

Good luck,
Carl

ABEX · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Feb 2003, 01:11 pm »

JACK
Listen to what Wayne had to say about the DIO.I burnout my Rotel Pre-Amp using it wothout modding the Output resistors.

ABEX · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Feb 2003, 01:33 pm »

I hate spending $$ that is hard earned.I really do not see the validity of spending over $1K for any one piece of gear.I think your speaker's should be the most expensive piece of gear in the whole chain unless you got them used at a great price.

In my system the most expensive piece is my Main Speaker's which I am having made at present.$2800List I am getting them for $1K with the most advance set of XO's !I have spoken to a few Manf. in the past year and 2 of them still use them as references.Pretty amazing when you consider they are over a 10yrs. old design.They have been modified since then,but they are still highly respected in the audio community as far as I know.

All other gear besides the speaker's where bought below $500.

You can get excellent results without paying $1000's for Piece's.Your most important purchase is your speaker's and amps.

Jack_Geo · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Feb 2003, 07:30 pm »

I really appreciate all of the help and advice I'm getting. This is a great forum, and am glad I decided to post my questions...

Wayne: Thanks for the info! Overloading the Marantz would definitely be a bad thing!

Rocket: Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a clock upgrade?

Maxcast: Your suggestion is the way I'm leaning...I could get a modded DIO and two MB-100's for under my budget. That would get me started, and I could possibly pick up a QSC amp to drive the woofers in the RM2's. I plan on keeping the Marantz for a little while longer as my pre-amp, but will keep an eye open for other bargains.

Carlman: Excellent points. I wish there were more dealers in Cleveland, OH that I could go to for auditions. I've only found two, really, and their selection is a bit limited. But, I'm in no real hurry, so I'll go slow and listen to equipment when and where I can.

A couple of questions about the amps I mentioned. Is there any difference between the MB-100's and the LeAmps? Also, has anyone heard the Outlaw monoblocks?

How long does it take to get the DIO modified to the smART version? I think I saw on the website that it was about a month...

Thanks

Jack