[haiderSonneteer]

With space becoming ever more precious,especially here in Europe,  we're seeing a lot of demand for our integrated amps here at Sonneteer.  Is the Pre-power separates combination option now a thing of the past?

Also we'd be interested in knowing what do you classify as an integrated? Are digital inputs a must? A desire?

Or are we even potentially going the other way where we have a Phono pre-amp, a digital/line pre-amp and a power amp?

It's open season on formats on one of our other threads so let's bring equipment into the game.

looking forward to your thinking.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

 

[JohnR]

FWIW I personally think that if space/component count minimization is the goal, the best way to slice the cake these days is the "line level component" + power amp (instead of DAC etc + integrated amp). So, basically, a digital/analogue preamp, ideally with hooks into everything else - so HDMI input and preferably output as well as multiples of every kind of digital input, analogue inputs, phono optional only, internet streaming/connectivity etc - plus a power amp. The advantage (to my mind) of this arrangement is that the power amp can be chosen to match the speakers. Cost mounts up with feature set / connectivity, of course...

If "fully integrated" is the goal, then all of the above! But with this one, I feel you are getting into the "lifestyle" system and we're talking about issues that transcend anything to do with high fidelity reproduction.

Anyway, I'm still not at all familiar with what your products are but those are my thoughts... 

[JLM]

Serious (high quality) integration, space saving, and yes lifestyle (gen X & Y) solutions are available via active speakers that have low level crossovers, matched power amps, and volume control built into the speaker.  Some even have pre-amps and DACs.  The Brits have done the most work along these lines: Meridian, ATC, PMC, Quad, and AVi to name some of the better vendors.  These are all meant for home enjoyment, not dry studio work.  Just add a digital source and possibly subwoofer(s). 

Regardless of how many times the audio old guard bleats, active designs (from the product developer) offers huge advantages over typical passives.  These are much more than B*se competition or audiophile entry level gear.  Traditional gear (customer paired amps and passive speakers) have a very difficult time matching the performance of good actives at several times the price (and complexity).

[haiderSonneteer]

a digital/analogue preamp, ideally with hooks into everything else - so HDMI input and preferably output as well as multiples of every kind of digital input, analogue inputs, phono optional only, internet streaming/connectivity etc - plus a power amp. The advantage (to my mind) of this arrangement is that the power amp can be chosen to match the speakers. Cost mounts up with feature set / connectivity, of course...

If "fully integrated" is the goal, then all of the above! But with this one, I feel you are getting into the "lifestyle" system and we're talking about issues that transcend anything to do with high fidelity reproduction.

Thank you John. Yes I am with your way of thinking on the all encapsulating preamp. Be it a separate unit or part of the amp is probably a matter of user preference as per your matching comments.

Interesting comment on the Lifestyle thing. Experience tells me that the Audiophile fraternity is a little conservative when it comes to Lifestyle 'looking' products. I have always been of the mind that lifestyle and high fidelity should be able to go hand in had. In fact our very survival as an industry and as a hobby may depend on it. This may be another subject for debate.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[haiderSonneteer]

Serious (high quality) integration, space saving, and yes lifestyle (gen X & Y) solutions are available via active speakers that have low level crossovers, matched power amps, and volume control built into the speaker.  Some even have pre-amps and DACs.  The Brits have done the most work along these lines: Meridian, ATC, PMC, Quad, and AVi to name some of the better vendors.  These are all meant for home enjoyment, not dry studio work.  Just add a digital source and possibly subwoofer(s). 

Regardless of how many times the audio old guard bleats, active designs (from the product developer) offers huge advantages over typical passives.  These are much more than B*se competition or audiophile entry level gear.  Traditional gear (customer paired amps and passive speakers) have a very difficult time matching the performance of good actives at several times the price (and complexity).

Thanks JLM, Yes you sound like my University lecturer who was very much into active speakers. with my Pro audio hat on I have worked with Active monitors a lot and also some hifi specific ones. The two worlds have such similarities yet speak to 'aficionados' on either side and they tend to agree with each other if the language is translated, but little do they know it. I think there are myths and misunderstandings on both sides.

I think in both technical and ergonomic terms there are long lists of Pros and cons for each argument in the active/passive loudspeaker debate. striking the right balance I think depends on the specific need. Is it worth another thread? We might get too technical! Could be fun.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[JLM]

Refreshing to read of an audio vendor who is so open minded.  The message of active designs, especially in this digital source age needs to get out there.  I A/B'd Paradigm Studio 20 v. Active 20 about 12 years ago (both 2-way stand mounted, same drivers/cabinets) and there was no comparison.  One of only a handful of true epiphanies in my 40+ years in audio.  Unfortunately (not for vendors  ) most audiophiles are still hunter/gatherers and lust after endlessly swapping gear, the more pieces the better to have a bigger trophy wall.  Gotta go for now.

[Letitroll98]

I think you've opened up all of these questions with your op, which is a good thing in my way of thinking.  The whole model of our component set changing from sources to preamp to power amp to passive speakers now becoming music server to multi-purpose dac/pre to powered speaker or fully integrated multi-input 7.1 all in one system to passive speakers may be the successful model for the future, bridging both hi-end and lifestyle markets.  And then deciding if the harder sell is to the audiophile or the well heeled lifestyle buyer.  Personally I think NAD's new 3020D line of components (for example)  may hit the sweet spot for most audiophiles and lifestyle buyers.  Then upsell to the master series for the higher end purchaser.  They are covering all the bases with convenient, quality products.  MISS   

I think in both technical and ergonomic terms there are long lists of Pros and cons for each argument in the active/passive loudspeaker debate. striking the right balance I think depends on the specific need. Is it worth another thread? We might get too technical! Could be fun.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[JohnR]

Interesting comment on the Lifestyle thing. Experience tells me that the Audiophile fraternity is a little conservative when it comes to Lifestyle 'looking' products. I have always been of the mind that lifestyle and high fidelity should be able to go hand in had. In fact our very survival as an industry and as a hobby may depend on it. This may be another subject for debate.

Thinking (briefly) on it, I have to confess that in my usage of the term, "lifestyle" does tend to denote a poor performance/price ratio, at least by traditional audiophile standards. But I would fully agree that this should not be the case! It can't be good for the industry that other members of the family won't/can't use the "stereo" because it's too difficult!

[goskers]

I have often wondered why an all in one or most in one box solution is not the best.  A product designer should feel that the overall synergy is completely within their control from a design standpoint as interstage signal transfer will be decided by them and not the end user.  At a minimum, a preamp/amp solution of uber quality would be nice.  Taking the next step on the digital signal input would be next incorporated but perhaps should be done in a modular fashion as to the changing nature of the product.  Lastly could come a media storage option.

I think the high end arena, which is ruled mostly by marketing, will shoot down an amazing integrated solution due to the fact that they will be selling less boxes.  More boxes mean more money.  More boxes also mean additional cabling needed between equipment which is an area of elevated profit margins.

Overall box size should be relatively minimal as there are amplifiers such as the Hypex models which encompass very little space.  The lack of need for large transformers and capacitors should have been the largest space consuming items.  I'm in!!

[tomytoons]

There are some excellent integrated amps out there. $$$$$
I have been using one for awhile and do not miss separates.

[WC]

An integrated is not a bad way to go. The mainstream markets have gone into all in one Audio/Video receivers with seemingly every feature you could ask for. The problem with these systems is that they have short shelf lives due to the rather brisk pace of digital audio progress. People still use analog equipment that they purchased in the 1970. Adding digital to an integrated may be fine when new, but the equipment won't hold its value. For me it would need to be an analog integrated or a DAC/preamp and separate amp combination, but what do I know, I use an A/V receiver to listen to. 

[goskers]

Adding digital to an integrated may be fine when new, but the equipment won't hold its value.

I agree with this statement completely which is why I would make the digital section modular.  If this is a plug and play type of swap then you can future proof the unit to some degree.

[rollo]

   It is all about the power supplies. Dual mono and separate power supplies isolated from each other for each section should do the trick. Phono and digital could be in other enclosures. Less could be more.


charles

[RDavidson]

Thank you John. Yes I am with your way of thinking on the all encapsulating preamp. Be it a separate unit or part of the amp is probably a matter of user preference as per your matching comments.

Interesting comment on the Lifestyle thing. Experience tells me that the Audiophile fraternity is a little conservative when it comes to Lifestyle 'looking' products. I have always been of the mind that lifestyle and high fidelity should be able to go hand in had. In fact our very survival as an industry and as a hobby may depend on it. This may be another subject for debate.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

With products like the Devaliet D-Premier, and perhaps a lesser extent (and less expensive extent) Peachtree Audio products walk the line quite nicely between Lifestyle and high fidelity.

[mcgsxr]

I think that although we are seeing new pieces that are well received that fit this mold (Wadia powerdac, NAD D2020, Nu Force IA100 and the Peachtree items) it is a small slice of the overall pie.

Many buyers of high end gear have many motivations - trophy wall, uniqueness, love of tech, love of music, etc.

I have simplified my system over the years from how complex it once was, but it is not quite back to the first real high end setup I owned.  The advent of more users (family!) has meant that integration with AV is now a requirement.

Eventually, I will return to a dedicated 2 channel setup, but for now it is a mix of HT and 2 channel.

[haiderSonneteer]

I have often wondered why an all in one or most in one box solution is not the best.  A product designer should feel that the overall synergy is completely within their control from a design standpoint as interstage signal transfer will be decided by them and not the end user.  At a minimum, a preamp/amp solution of uber quality would be nice.  Taking the next step on the digital signal input would be next incorporated but perhaps should be done in a modular fashion as to the changing nature of the product.  Lastly could come a media storage option.

From a designers point of view you are absolutely accurate in your assumption. This is certainly how I feel and as I understand it, my designer colleague has a not too dissimilar view. I also understand the vendors desire to make more money and hence more boxes. Saying that, it is not a lie to say sometimes more boxes are better and gives you more flexibility in matching. Also, as we all know, the nature of our kind of end user does like to tweak. And why not.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[SteveFord]

I guess it would depend upon your speakers and what you like.
If you have power hungry speakers and like the sound of tube amps an integrated would not be a viable option.
I do have a couple of integrated amps but they're used for small speakers or headphones.

Besides, trying out different preamps is fun as each manufacturer has their own idea as to how the music should sound.

[haiderSonneteer]

The advent of more users (family!) has meant that integration with AV is now a requirement.

Eventually, I will return to a dedicated 2 channel setup, but for now it is a mix of HT and 2 channel.

I think the reality that most music lovers are part of a greater household is something that is hopefully dawning on our industry. Hifi has been hostage to high end enthusiasts for a quite a while. For some, sharing has been difficult. If it is all about the music and that's certainly my angle, then accessibility to quality should be widened. I have had a similar experience in my home. Though we ended up with a more lifestyle looking (hifi sounding) 2 channel system. The separates are in my guitar room!

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[haiderSonneteer]

Besides, trying out different preamps is fun as each manufacturer has their own idea as to how the music should sound.

Yes indeed. I think this is a well made point. For those who like to dabble a little, separating the system allows more time for fun. And why not. Nirvana for each of us is not the same.

Haider
sonneteer.co.uk

[JLM]

With all this lifestyle chat, I'm recalling those sleek B&O receivers from the 70's (not the later ones with the gaudy wall hung option).  Good sounding (in the typical dry Scandinavian way) and well built, compact (fully intended to belong on a book shelf), and (I thought) were almost too simple use (no power on button, just go to your source selection and hit the off button when done).  Today NuForce is an audio company that spans portable, desktop, wireless, and high-end spectrums with simple/compact equipment. 

Frankly the DIY crowd scares most the 'straights' away in an instant with gobs of wires, exposed components, and unfathomable controls (which should all be a good lessons in what not to do if you're trying to breach the 'civilian' market).  Just add warm-up time, delicate turntables, tubes that burn cats and small children with huge ugly speakers and you have a run of the mill audio system and all the reasons why the general public flee in mass hysteria. 

Speakers are a particular challenge in addressing various acceptance factors with number, size, and location constraints.  One of the best examples of crossing high-end with lifestyle in a passive speaker is Amphion.  But this is where active designs (that can be much smaller for the same bass response, many that include wall/corner/open location adjustments or desktop versions that are so small its not needed) can really shine, with separate subwoofers as needed, and wireless controls can help win the day.  The question is: Can the typical audiophile support tearing down the walls that separate our territory and embrace gear that is accessible to the masses?