[JLM]

Passive is the only thing I'd consider, except for subs.

This exemplifies the gap between those who help create the music we hear and most of us audiophiles.  It's true that we each have different bottom lines (they - to find the warts and make it listenable to a wide audience; we audiophiles for entertainment/enjoyment).  They (studio recording/mixing staff) almost exclusively use active speakers in near field setups.  Actives are more portable, rugged, compact and economical; but more importantly they have greater dynamics, much flatter frequency response, and incredibly deep bass.  users of passives are trying to match with the right amp (that is probably way over designed) via a crude high voltage crossover (that loses power and forces the amp to be even more over designed)  and expensive speaker cables.  Note that users of single driver designs at least don't have the crossover to deal with).  The near field setup removes as much of the room effects as possible, but again this 'free upgrade' is passed over by most audiophiles.

Years ago I A/B'd Paradigm Studio 20 speakers ($800/pair 2-way stand-mounted passives) against Paradigm Active 20 speakers ($1600/pair, same cabinet/drivers but active).  No contest, not even close.  Dynamics, frequency response, imaging, and bass were all clearly superior.  Passersby were literally slack jawed in disbelief.  The Active 20 even out performed the Studio 80 ($1600/pair floorstandering passives) on all counts.  But audiophiles in those days didn't want to give up their amps or hunting for the perfect amplifier match.  Nowadays that attitude is beginning to change thanks to computer based audio.  Companies like Meridian, ATC, PMC, Quad, and AVi (to name just some of the better known British companies) have been taking advantage of DSP and modern solid state designs to develop the entire consumer speaker (amp, driver, cabinet) from the ground up (some even build in the DAC).  It's the intelligent solution to good sound that can fit anyone's lifestyle.

I invite you to research the advantages of active speaker design before your next purchase.

[Danny Richie]

Actives are more portable, rugged, compact and economical; but more importantly they have greater dynamics, much flatter frequency response, and incredibly deep bass.

Actually, they don't have greater dynamics. The frequency response is generally rough (to say the least) and not at all accurate, even with the most popular models, and bass response is not deeper because they are powered.

Years ago I A/B'd Paradigm Studio 20 speakers ($800/pair 2-way stand-mounted passives) against Paradigm Active 20 speakers ($1600/pair, same cabinet/drivers but active).  No contest, not even close.  Dynamics, frequency response, imaging, and bass were all clearly superior.  Passersby were literally slack jawed.  The Active 20 even out performed the Studio 80 ($1600/pair floorstandering passives) on all counts.  But audiophiles in those days didn't want to give up their amps or hunting for the perfect amplifier match.

These can be the case when you are comparing the passives the actives using entry level gear.

If you brought them both here then you'd realize just the opposite is true. The powered monitors use horribly cheap amps on pair with a low cost sub-woofer plate amp. Using the same passive speaker with any of the amps that I use on a daily basis will allow the powered versions to be heard for the garbage that they really are.

[mlundy57]

I had actives on my desktop connected to the computer and they were fine as long as I was listening to mp3's. However, when I started listening to uncompressed HD music I found an outboard DAC, amp, passive setup to be more satisfying.

Mike

[dlparker]

This exemplifies the gap between those who help create the music we hear and most of us audiophiles.  It's true that we each have different bottom lines (they - to find the warts and make it listenable to a wide audience; we audiophiles for entertainment/enjoyment).  They (studio recording/mixing staff) almost exclusively use active speakers in near field setups.  Actives are more portable, rugged, compact and economical; but more importantly they have greater dynamics, much flatter frequency response, and incredibly deep bass.  Passives are open to trying to match with the right amp (that is probably way over designed) via a crude high voltage crossover (that loses power and forces the amp to be even more over designed) and expensive speaker cables.  The near field setup removes as much of the room effects as possible.

Years ago I A/B'd Paradigm Studio 20 speakers ($800/pair 2-way stand-mounted passives) against Paradigm Active 20 speakers ($1600/pair, same cabinet/drivers but active).  No contest, not even close.  Dynamics, frequency response, imaging, and bass were all clearly superior.  Passersby were literally slack jawed.  The Active 20 even out performed the Studio 80 ($1600/pair floorstandering passives) on all counts.  But audiophiles in those days didn't want to give up their amps or hunting for the perfect amplifier match.  Nowadays that attitude is beginning to change thanks to computer based audio.  Companies like Meridian, ATC, PMC, Quad, and AVi (to name just some of the better known British companies) have been taking advantage of DSP and modern solid state designs design the entire consumer speaker (amp, driver, cabinet) from the ground up (some even build in the DAC).  It's the intelligent solution to good sound that can fit anyone's lifestyle.

I invite you to research the advantages of active speaker design before your next purchase.

I'm talking here about listening in my home/office/studio. For sound reinforcement, I'd definitely go active, for multiple reasons, not the least of which is I'm too damn old to still be a roadie but I have to wear that hat too. I'm perfectly happy to do it if it means I get to play, but I want it to be as physically non-demanding as possible so I'm not exhausted by the time we're ready to start our first set. Factor in that all that gear seems about 5 times as heavy after the gig...

[Danny Richie]

Even some of the most popular passive studio monitors are often far from accurate or revealing. Most of them use very poor quality crossover parts as well. I find most of them far from being listenable. I am simply stunned at what is really used in mixing and mastering.

[JLM]

Actually, they don't have greater dynamics. The frequency response is generally rough (to say the least) and not at all accurate, even with the most popular models, and bass response is not deeper because they are powered.

These can be the case when you are comparing the passives the actives using entry level gear.

If you brought them both here then you'd realize just the opposite is true. The powered monitors use horribly cheap amps on pair with a low cost sub-woofer plate amp. Using the same passive speaker with any of the amps that I use on a daily basis will allow the powered versions to be heard for the garbage that they really are.

Now I remember why its been so long since I visited this circle (I absolutely don't agree with anything you said, and the A/C rules prohibit me from saying anymore).  The title of this circle is "high quality..." yet you're using $29 full range drivers and then call $800/pair speakers entry level??? 

[Danny Richie]

Now I remember why its been so long since I visited this circle (I absolutely don't agree with anything you said, and the A/C rules prohibit me from saying anymore).  The title of this circle is "high quality..." yet you're using $29 full range drivers and then call $800/pair speakers entry level??? 

I have studio monitors come through here all the time. I have some in here now. Want to see how they measure and what's inside of them?

The 3" drivers that I could offer for about $29 a piece (if I bring them in) are more accurate from 150Hz and up. The 3" drivers will make great desk top speakers. With a sub they will make great sounding speakers for a small room.

By the way, speakers sold through stores for $800 have to be produced and built for less than $160 on average (including boxing and packaging). Yep, that's entry level.

[Danny Richie]

Hey JLM,

I just split the thread since it went off topic. Feel free to say whatever you want so long as you are nice about it, and I will be happy to discuss studio monitors or power monitors etc.

[Freo-1]

Now I remember why its been so long since I visited this circle (I absolutely don't agree with anything you said, and the A/C rules prohibit me from saying anymore).  The title of this circle is "high quality..." yet you're using $29 full range drivers and then call $800/pair speakers entry level???

Here is a picture of the ATC SCM 19 monitor super linear driver, which is very similar to the ATC 20's studio monitors used in many studios.  I never realized how much better monitors could sound over the vast majority of "audiophile speakers"   
 

[Danny Richie]

ATC makes some nice drivers. Lets look inside though. What does the crossover look like?

And the ATC offerings are much more expensive than $800 a pair.

Good thinking though.

Here are some good ones too: http://www.themasteringroom.com/index-2.html

Here is another: http://www.sageaudio.com/

And another: http://www.fullcirclemastering.com/equipment/

Wait a minute. Aren't those audiophile speakers?

Here are some more: http://www.singmastering.com/the-studio/#2

   http://www.massivemastering.com/

Those must be very good speakers.

[glynnw]

While working at Telarc I got to hear a lot of the speakers that various manufacturers brought by in hopes that Jack and Bob would use them as monitors.  ATC came and went quickly as did many high end names.  After searching for several years they finally decided to switch from ADS 1530s to Waveform.

[SoCalWJS]

I hope this remains civil - it'll be an interesting thread to follow.

I've heard many, many speakers in my life. All I will say at this point is that I've heard Active speakers that sound good as well as Active speakers that were singularly unimpressive (as in chase me out of the room instantly).

An inexpensive (cheap) set of Actives sound just like that - cheap. Not saying that they don't have their place, but they are not "Audiophile". You have to compare apples to apples, and by the time you get a good set of Actives, they ain't "inexpensive".

[Danny Richie]

Anyone want to take a guess what speakers these are?



Electrolytic caps, connection blocks, cheesy binding post, cheap common electrical wire...

[Freo-1]

ATC makes some nice drivers. Lets look inside though. What does the crossover look like?

And the ATC offerings are much more expensive than $800 a pair.

Good thinking though.

Here are some good ones too: http://www.themasteringroom.com/index-2.html

Here is another: http://www.sageaudio.com/

And another: http://www.fullcirclemastering.com/equipment/

Wait a minute. Aren't those audiophile speakers?

Here are some more: http://www.singmastering.com/the-studio/#2

   http://www.massivemastering.com/

Those must be very good speakers.

Hey, I'm a big fan of Tyler Acoustics, and Ty is a great guy.   I've got some in my HT rig.   
The ATC speakers are truly special.  I don't think there is a better set of drivers on the market than their Super Linear models.   I continue to be amazed how they can play loud, moderate, or soft with excellent performance.  Their ability to play loud(er) without breakup is remarkable. 
 
I don't doubt that the crossover could be upgraded, but it sounds pretty good out of the box.  Still, I may take you up on up on an upgrade sometime in the near future.
 
Is the pic perhaps Legacy?  I had some big, expensive Legacy speakers that had pretty cheap crossovers.  My buddy re-built the ones on the monitors, which cleaned them up considerably.

[Danny Richie]

Hey, I'm a big fan of Tyler Acoustics, and Ty is a great guy.   I've got some in my HT rig.

Awesome. And yes, Ty is a great guy.

I don't doubt that the crossover could be upgraded, but it sounds pretty good out of the box.  Still, I may take you up on up on an upgrade sometime in the near future.

Post a pic of the crossover and let's see what's there. I have a feeling there could be a lot of improvement ahead.

Is the pic perhaps Legacy?  I had some big, expensive Legacy speakers that had pretty cheap crossovers.  My buddy re-built the ones on the monitors, which cleaned them up considerably.

Nope, not Legacy. And yes those do suffer from pretty poor internals. I have helped more than a few guys out with some upgrades for those. Some of their networks look like a rats nest. I have a few pics somewhere that look pretty scary.

I know that sounds bad, but I am not trying to make them look bad, just being honest. Here is a shot of just a tweeter mid crossover of theirs.



The pic I posted (in the post above this one ) is from a VERY well known and well used studio monitors seen on MANY consoles. 

[mlundy57]

I'd hate to have to build that crossover. If the "Crossover Assembly 101" tutorial had even remotely looked anything like that I would have never attempted it.

[Danny Richie]

I'd hate to have to build that crossover. If the "Crossover Assembly 101" tutorial had even remotely looked anything like that I would have never attempted it.

  And that's not even all of it. That doesn't include the crossover to the woofers.

[Freo-1]

 
Here is a pic of the SCM 19 crossover:
 
 

[WC]

Are they Yamaha's?

[WireNut]

Oh gawd, I just saw bennic caps, I don't no, maybe