[James Romeyn]

You mean this dude now does high end stereos?


 

Yes, that guy, another of those persons famous for being famous.  Maybe 15-20 years ago he presented the world with his insanely expensive system, IIRC circa $1M. 

[ted_b]

I attended all three days as well, and although I always caution to beware of trying to evaluate product sonics at show conditions...we all do it.   And yes, this show in particular had a bad combination of poor sonics often played way too loud (one presenter pointed out that the rooms were more square than other hotel shows and thus the damn midbass humps were even more prevalent).

But I did enjoy the show immensely. Why? Cuz it hit all of my goals: touch and feel some new devices I was interested in, catch up with several manufacturers/friends on next steps (Dan Wright, Paul McGowan, Wang Xuanqian, George Klissarov, etc) and re-kindle great friendships made at these forums (often even meeting a few face to face for the first time).

What about this idea: develop a show where the entire room setup needs to be less than $x (say $5k) or multiples ($5k on floor 29-30, $10k on floor 34, etc) so the dealers or mfg'ers are forced to "get real". There is nothing more pathetic than going into a suite of $300-500k worth of gear, hear the same audiophile cuts at 108db, overpowering the room something fierce, and walking (or running) away with the feeling that this is hedonism at its worst.

I will continue to attend these shows, but mainly for my aforementioned goals. If I hear a room that even portends greatness it is almost by accident.

[ted_b]

Also...room correction at shows.  Why is it almost non-existent?

A few of us chatted about room correction and how things like Dirac, REW, Audyssey, etc would be easy to implement (in a rough setup form). One room that boasted of using it (McIntosh/Martin Logan 5.1 surround room) couldn't even demo turning it on and off (said they didn't know the software well enough..or maybe cuz the a/b was not proof enough). ?? Seriously, and they were the dealer? Not buying from them, sorry. It would have been a tremendous opportunity to push McIntosh's RoomPerfect...since these rooms are likely much worse starting off than most audio lovers' home listening room conditions.

[roscoeiii]

Also...room correction at shows.  Why is it almost non-existent?

A few of us chatted about room correction and how things like Dirac, REW, Audyssey, etc would be easy to implement (in a rough setup form). One room that boasted of using it (McIntosh/Martin Logan 5.1 surround room) couldn't even demo turning it on and off (said they didn't know the software well enough..or maybe cuz the a/b was not proof enough). ?? Seriously, and they were the dealer? Not buying from them, sorry. It would have been a tremendous opportunity to push McIntosh's RoomPerfect...since these rooms are likely much worse starting off than most audio lovers' home listening room conditions.

Agreed Ted. Something like a DSPeaker Dual Core could nicely help with room related bass issues. Though then a dealer/manufacturer who isn't selling DSPeaker may get accused of mistrepresenting their speakers...

[Don_S]

Roscoeiii,

I think you nailed it.  If the speakers are not DSP or the room is not specifically demonstrating room correction equipment and software, I think any use of room correction could be looked upon as, at the very least, confusing and suspicious.  At the worst it could be looked upon as misrepresentation (if someone's glass was half full). 

A pet show peeve of mine is a room with a quarter of an acre of electronics on the floor.  All my friends and I run our systems like that.    I understand one pair of monoblocks on the floor but there is a limit on the amount of real estate that can be devoted to electronics in a normal home.

Agreed Ted. Something like a DSPeaker Dual Core could nicely help with room related bass issues. Though then a dealer/manufacturer who isn't selling DSPeaker may get accused of mistrepresenting their speakers...

[ted_b]

Don,
I think the improvment in sonics would hugely override anyone wondering about the confusion or "trickery" of DSP'd room eq. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have a good set of room dimensions, complete room treatment and perfectly set up speaker positions before I even thought about advanced electronic room correction....(which, I now believe, still could do some good, especially the better more-thought-out implementations).  BUT...if you were at Axpona this past weekend you would not have stayed in most rooms long enough to care about "why does this room sound so good".  That would have been a great problem to have.  Instead, you'd be running out, hoping no permanent damage was done. 

[Hugh]

Ted,

I was not there and the guys have not reported back to me yet so I'd like to pick your brain here, so to speak.

If I read you correctly, does it mean the room(s) is not acoustically sound?

Thanks,

Hugh

[ltr317]

I enjoyed Axpona again this year, saw some old friends, and met a few new ones. Most of the notable rooms have already been covered, but I'll add my 2 cents.

- The little Aerial monitors with a small sub and Musical Design electronics really surprised me. A great sat/sub integration job on their part as they sounded plenty big and smooth.

Overall, it was fun, and nice to have a show close by in the Midwest again.

Hi Tom,

It was great meeting and sharing a meal with you.  Too bad I didn't get to meet some other AC members I haven't met before.  I thought the Aerial/Exemplar/Musical Design/REL system was very musical and offered good value.  I am working on getting the Musical Design preamp and power amp for review soon.

Cheers,
Paul Mah

[ted_b]

Hugh,
Hi.  The rooms had poor uneven response (bass nodes badly) and the dealers/manufacturers, on the whole, did very little to try and tame or position for them.  Even your Melody 211 integrated, which starred in the wonderful sounding Audio Archon room (Lawrence Violins, MG Audio cabling) couldn't tame the bass node that existed along the back and side room areas.  That room had a very nice sweetspot for listening, though, and the 211's sounded great there.    It was one of five rooms I could have spent all day in (Smaller white Kharmas, huge Sadurni horns, Audio Note corner loaded bookshelves, small Aerial 5B's with REL subwoofer at 28hz)....all small speakers in small rooms, except for the Sadurnis which had a WOW factor drug that I craved on a regular basis.   Oh to hear those horns with a pair of Melody 300Bs (push pull power needed for subs)

Mike's Audio Archon Lawrence Violin room sounded better than Lawrence's own room (Cellos and Rowland Class D gear) due to system synergy and a slight need to sit back further with the Cellos, which put you in bass node world (aka wrong size for the room). 

A special mention to an AC-filled Vapor room (Fred, Rob, Joe, Pete, Ryan).  Friday the room was bright, harsh and congested sounding.  Why?  Cuz the damn preamp had bad tubes and cuz the new Vapors were...er, um, NEW!  As in hours old.  By Sunday that room was much better (speaker surround breakin, better NOS tubes, slightly changed speaker positioning).  Believe it or not, several rooms sounded worse on Sunday (and by that time the only recourse was to shake your head and walk out).

Net/net, hotel rooms are either bad or worse for sonics.  The Westin seems to own some of the worst.  They even made the up-till-now invincible TAD CR1s sound ordinary and slightly congested (Andrew moved to that room from an even worse one on 12).   Hopefully next year there is more care in matching up systems and rooms.  The guy who does 60 minutes of room correction will make most people's best-of lists (since we all like to rate these horrible rooms, even knowing what we know).

[Hugh]

Ted,

Thanks for the info.
It is valuable for next year planning.

Onto room correction, this is one of the area which I am ignorant of since I never tried it in my 2ch setup.
Is there such a thing?
Please ducate me.

Thanks,

Hugh

[ted_b]

Also, forgot the Volti horn room.  Sounded good enough to camp in, too.  It was all hooked via Pete's new Triode interconnects, speaker wire and tried-and-true power cords.  It must be good stuff cuz the room sounded nice!

[Hugh]

Found this.
http://www.trinnov.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/Amethyst_Product_Sheet_EN_2013-09.pdf

[AJinFLA]

I think the improvment in sonics would hugely override anyone wondering about the confusion or "trickery" of DSP'd room eq.

EQing is the devils work. It's ok in the studio, but afterwards, bad juju.
Not to mention cheating.

cheers,

AJ

[ted_b]

AJ,
We're talking about those hotel rooms we were all just in.  Not necessarily our home environs.  Yes, the purist approach is no EQ, I agree.  But to use purist and Westin Axpona in the same sentence...THAT is the devil's work. 

I enjoyed listening to your smaller monitors..never got there when the bigger ones were firing, sorry. Hopefully I didn't scare away too many customers when packing up Dan's modded Sony.  It made it home ok (better shape than me).  Thanks.

[Berto]

Hugh,
Hi.  The rooms had poor uneven response (bass nodes badly) and the dealers/manufacturers, on the whole, did very little to try and tame or position for them.  Even your Melody 211 integrated, which starred in the wonderful sounding Audio Archon room (Lawrence Violins, MG Audio cabling) couldn't tame the bass node that existed along the back and side room areas.  That room had a very nice sweetspot for listening, though, and the 211's sounded great there.    It was one of five rooms I could have spent all day in (Smaller white Kharmas, huge Sadurni horns, Audio Note corner loaded bookshelves, small Aerial 5B's with REL subwoofer at 28hz)....all small speakers in small rooms, except for the Sadurnis which had a WOW factor drug that I craved on a regular basis.   Oh to hear those horns with a pair of Melody 300Bs (push pull power needed for subs)

Mike's Audio Archon Lawrence Violin room sounded better than Lawrence's own room (Cellos and Rowland Class D gear) due to system synergy and a slight need to sit back further with the Cellos, which put you in bass node world (aka wrong size for the room). 

A special mention to an AC-filled Vapor room (Fred, Rob, Joe, Pete, Ryan).  Friday the room was bright, harsh and congested sounding.  Why?  Cuz the damn preamp had bad tubes and cuz the new Vapors were...er, um, NEW!  As in hours old.  By Sunday that room was much better (speaker surround breakin, better NOS tubes, slightly changed speaker positioning).  Believe it or not, several rooms sounded worse on Sunday (and by that time the only recourse was to shake your head and walk out).

Net/net, hotel rooms are either bad or worse for sonics.  The Westin seems to own some of the worst.  They even made the up-till-now invincible TAD CR1s sound ordinary and slightly congested (Andrew moved to that room from an even worse one on 12).   Hopefully next year there is more care in matching up systems and rooms.  The guy who does 60 minutes of room correction will make most people's best-of lists (since we all like to rate these horrible rooms, even knowing what we know).

Ted, it was great talking with you again, I always learn alot. Thanx for noticing the BIG differences in our room, (Lampizator, Vapor, Purity, and Verastarr) from Friday to Sunday.  Nice to know that our hard work paid off

[rajacat]

EQing is the devils work. It's ok in the studio, but afterwards, bad juju.
Not to mention cheating.

cheers,

AJ

I don't understand why you say that EQ is "cheating". Isn't the point of speaker design is to get the best sound possible? If it takes cheating to optimize some speakers then I'm all for it. This is all about the sound, not a competitive game.

[roscoeiii]

EQing is the devils work. It's ok in the studio, but afterwards, bad juju.
Not to mention cheating.

cheers,

AJ

As much as I want a great sounding and measuring speaker with no EQ, I am coming around to the benefits of a transparent EQ. And digital EQs are getting there. Robert Greene has made me a convert there. Helps with room effects (especially if you have placement and room treatment limitations), and gives the listeners the ability to dial in the sound they like best.

If getting the best possible sound requires cheating, OK I'll cheat.

Sorry a bit OT.

[AJinFLA]

AJ,
We're talking about those hotel rooms we were all just in.  Not necessarily our home environs.  Yes, the purist approach is no EQ, I agree.  But to use purist and Westin Axpona in the same sentence...THAT is the devil's work. 

I should have added the "tongue in cheek" emoticon, as I said it mainly in jest....

I enjoyed listening to your smaller monitors..never got there when the bigger ones were firing, sorry. Hopefully I didn't scare away too many customers when packing up Dan's modded Sony.  It made it home ok (better shape than me).  Thanks.

Thanks and glad to hear, that Sony is a very nice piece by Dan. Good seeing all you gents as always.

cheers,

AJ

[AJinFLA]

I don't understand why you say that EQ is "cheating".

I said it in jest...but let me ask you this:
A speaker is bright, a bit recessed in the mids from poor XO work, or a non-ideal driver, etc. and has the typical ported box boom being blamed on the "room".
A touch of EQ here and there and now it sounds pretty darned listenable, maybe even very good...at the show.
Attendee is wowed, buys it, gets it home and...bright, recessed and boomy. They don't have EQ. What now? "Treatments" and magic caps? 8 years of "break/burn in"?
Not cheated?
Well...

cheers,

AJ

[dminches]

As much as I want a great sounding and measuring speaker with no EQ, I am coming around to the benefits of a transparent EQ. And digital EQs are getting there. Robert Greene has made me a convert there. Helps with room effects (especially if you have placement and room treatment limitations), and gives the listeners the ability to dial in the sound they like best.

If getting the best possible sound requires cheating, OK I'll cheat.

Sorry a bit OT.

That approach is not possible if you are listen to 2 channel analog, unless I am misunderstanding you.