Digital amp comparisons

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dave_c

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Digital amp comparisons
« Reply #20 on: 6 Aug 2004, 07:14 am »
Well, it seems like the basic technologies which are used in audio haven't really progressed in last 50 years.  I'm sure with all of the advances in other fields that audio technology will feel the trickle down effect eventually.  I think multi-channel and SACD & DVD-A are the early signs.  Digital amplifier technology may be the next phase.  I think speaker technology will have to progress soon as well.  For now, the most accessible trickle down effect is the computer.  Its pretty common for people to have a powerful processor at their fingertips.  How much of that power we actually use is most likely pretty minimal.  The thing is your PC can be leveraged to become a powerful digital EQ, room corrector and speaker corrector with the right software.  Eventually, someone will write this software and it will be common.  Kind of like EAC.  Freeware which gains support and becomes a standard.

As far as the format war.  I think CD is involved because its the reigning format.  SACD and DVD-A are trying to dethrone it.  It's a 3 way right now.  Multi channel, convinience, sound quality and marketing will determine the winner!

azryan

Digital amp comparisons
« Reply #21 on: 6 Aug 2004, 05:15 pm »
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Well, it seems like the basic technologies which are used in audio haven't really progressed in last 50 years.


You think so? Maybe you could explain a bit 'cuz it doesn't look that way to me unless you get really general about how you define 'technology'. I think we've come a LONG way.

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I'm sure with all of the advances in other fields that audio technology will feel the trickle down effect eventually.


Maybe you could elaborate about what fields you mean and how they'll merge into the audio world? I don't get what you're saying?

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I think multi-channel and SACD & DVD-A are the early signs.


But those are audio technologies wouldn't you say? Not products of other fields?

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I think speaker technology will have to progress soon as well.


You haven't seen any progression in this area? The progression that most influences speakers I think isn't technology so much as companies being able to sell far better drivers for far better prices, but the technology behind driver design, more advanced materials, computer aided x-over layout and pretty radically diff. drivers like many diff. planar drivers out now, etc... I see a lot of things that were not done in the past.

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-room corrector and speaker corrector with the right software.


A whole 'nother topic, but I'm pretty against 'room correction' which is done by intending to 'counter-distort' your speakers to counter the bad effects your room may have.
There are several reasons why this just isn't the best thing to do to 'fix a room problem' -other than in the deep bass range where it can be helpful in certain cases.

dave_c

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Digital amp comparisons
« Reply #22 on: 6 Aug 2004, 06:26 pm »
Quote from: azryan
Maybe you could elaborate about what fields you mean and how they'll merge into the audio world? I don't get what you're saying?

Advancements in digital media are the result of advancements in digital dignal processing, microprocessor and circuit design technology in general.  Audio is just one application for these advancements.

Quote from: azryan
You haven't seen any progression in this area? The progression that most influences speakers I think isn't technology so much as companies being able to sell far better drivers for far better prices, but the technology behind driver design, more advanced materials, computer aided x-over layout and pretty radically diff. drivers like many diff. planar drivers out now, etc... I see a lot of things that were not done in the past.

Sure this is a result of the trickle down effect.  Manufacturing technologies, design improvements and efficiencies have let to this.  There just have been very few indroductions of new speaker technologies which have revolutionized the field.  And you know what, maybe there doesn't need to be.

Well, I look at it like this the fundamentals of a playback system still revolve around recreating an analog signal.  I don't think the fundamentals of recording, playback, amplification and reproduction have changed all that much.  We still rely on media to store the signal, a player to decode it, a preamp for gain, an amp for power and a speaker to reproduce it.  The fundamentals of amplification have remained the same: Class A or AB, tube or solid state.  The rising popularity of digital amplification may change things.

I don't understand why room correction is such a bad thing.  I think it could really improve playback in many systems.  Its not like we have acoustically perfect listening rooms built into our homes.  Adjusting for real wold environments seems like a practical application for audio.  I will admit that I've never heard a room corrected system, but the theory seems sound.  If its not your cup of tea, I can understand that.  I just think that this is the kind of thing that would revolutionize audio.  Imagine if you had individual amplifiers for each driver and you could control each drivers output via DSP; much of the interactions between amplifier and driver could be eliminated, not to mention the ability to adjust for room resonance or other anomalies.

Maybe we need to step back for a second and study how humans hear before we go and re-design audio.  I have a feeling 20-20k isn’t exactly the limits of human perception.  Although, these are the technical “limits” of human hearing, sound is the vibration of air which we can feel through our skin as well.  I don’t think these things were taken into account when playback was designed.  Its probably unlikely to happen, but if we go back and find out that sub and super sonic frequencies affect our perception, would that not warrant a change in recording and playback?

azryan

Digital amp comparisons
« Reply #23 on: 7 Aug 2004, 12:51 am »
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-Advancements in digital media are the result of advancements in digital signal processing, microprocessor and circuit design technology in general. Audio is just one application for these advancements.-


Ok. I totally agree, but IMO we’ve been seeing these advancements through the years and I didn’t get how you were saying it was something that would ‘eventually’ happen? It’s been happening IMO.

And then you mentioned SACD and DVD-A which are not processes that trickled down from other fields.

I’ll just drop it though.

‘room correction’ opens up a whole can o’ worms.

First, it doesn’t actually fix the room of course so deceptive name IMO.

What it’s doing is taking a measurement of the sound at your seat and then applying DSP to distort the audio signal to ‘counter’ the room.

If you don’t move your head it can work if it’s advanced enough to not just e.q. the diff. but also correct for phase ‘cuz room effects have a delay from the speaker’s signal.

Complicated stuff and did this processing on the fly do nothing to effect the quality of the original signal? Many say adding more processing damages the signal when altering it -digital or not.

Next, do you actually want to totally ‘erase’ your room? Most don’t want a totally dead room, but then stuff like the TacT gear lets you choose how you want to distort your sound to change this so you don’t totally kill the room, but then from the posts of a lot of TacT users it mostly becomes a bass e.q. and/or a crutch for a bad/easily fixable room problem (for much cheaper).

Then move your head and the room effects will change but the room ‘correction’ doesn’t know where you are sitting right?
You could move from a null to a peak and make the sound even worse.

Again, the TacT stuff lets you make a listening ‘window’ instead of just one seat ‘correction’ but then no seat will be exactly right.

The better sounding your room, the better this ‘window’ will work, but then... uh...’cuz the room sounds better you need it less in the first place.

Then there’s the fact that the system might be trying to fight a null by really boosting a certain freq. This could cause a dangerous prob. for your speakers and/or electronics and still not fix the null.
The room e.q. doesn’t know or care if it damages your other gear.

Then in a broader sense I just feel that a really good speaker well set up in a room that doesn’t suck (it’s not that hard to make a room sound good and certainly doesn’t need to look like a mad tweaker hovel to do it) will not need any advanced room correction, but could use a few parametric e.q. points to hit the bass which is usually the main problem that’s not easy to treat in the ‘actual room’.

Plus other stuff. hehe

I know on the surface it sounds awesome to think about digitally correcting your audio so it’s dead on perfect in any room. There’s just a lot more to it than that. Feel free to want it and dig it though. Just thought I’d mention some of these issues I have with the concept.


As for loudspeaker technology...

I think I named several advancements in this area that you even quoted back to me yet you said they’re just trickle down effects? I disagree.
The things I mentioned were specific to the audio industry and not things simply pulled/developed from other fields.

You don’t think they’re advancements or what?

What about all the diff cone materials that’ve come out?‘W’ cones, Hexacone, carbon-fiber, Kevlar, aerogel, etc..?
Modern plastics like Mylar, Kapton, Kaladex used in assorted elements of diff. drivers?
Beryllium, Plasma, and created diamond tweeters?
Corian and marble cabinets. Black Hole 5 damping sheets?

Yes those materials were not developed for audio, but as used in audio there certainly took audio-specific design development.

Small neo magnet push/pull planars, pure alum. ribbon tweeters?
Large electrostatics and Maggie’s planar magnetic panels?

Acoustic Reality’s new mega buck full midrange/treble 60" ribbons look pretty advanced to me.

I’m sure there’ll be more but I don’t see this as an area that’s been neglected or stagnating in the least.

I mean you could say cars haven’t advanced at all if you look at the basic idea of all their parts which have been around for many decades.

The stage of a loudspeaker in the audio chain is simply an ‘object’ to move air.

I think people have come up with a LOT of ideas of how to do this and you can’t get around the matter of pushing air through a room unless you go to headphones or this crazy idea I read about where they shoot two very high freqs. at you and when they cross where you’re sitting they both get canceled out ‘cept the slight diff. in the beams which is the audio signal.

You hear the sound and other people can’t hear anything, you only need special super tweeter to project the signal and you eliminate room effect too.

It seemed too crazy to be practical though and maybe something that could be damaging to someone’s ears?

dave_c

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Digital amp comparisons
« Reply #24 on: 7 Aug 2004, 11:30 pm »
You're right.  I there are a lot of cool speaker technologies out there that I unfairly glanced over.  Besides the material engineering going into conventional drivers, there are the heil motion, electrostats, ribbons, manger and more.

I guess I'll just have to try the room correction thing to figure out what's good and bad about it.  Hopefully I'll have it setup soon to comment on it.