[George3]

My experience with Wilson is that the sound sucks, that the people who sell it tend to be assholes,  and that the people who like  and buy their products tend to be status obsessed assholes with tin ears. You really are confirming all of my impressions so far.

What is it with the multitude of people here bashing Wilson and throwing out derogatory remarks and innuendos about them and other "expensive" manufacturers?  If one does not like their sound that's one thing, if one levels personal attacks just because of what they charge that is another. 

The simple fact of the matter is that companies such as Wilson, Nordost, Magico, et al, do matter.  Much like the often-used analogy to high priced cars in the auto industry, everyone who has a passion for audio benefits from them.  We do not have to own them to benefit from them. 

Personally, I most welcome the opportunity that these shows provide me to listen to as many audio manufacturers, regardless of their price list, as I can.  Whether I like them or not that is another matter but I know that I can sit down with any audiophile in the world and have a reasonable discussion of the merits or lack thereof, of many systems without resorting to non-audio expletives. 

That being said, when I read such statements that we don’t go into this room or that simply because they are perceived as snobs or too pricey I say, What? That is precisely why I want to go hear them. I want to know what a Beryllium, diamond tweeter in a box reinforced with six thousand titanium bolts sounds like, if only to be able to come home and love my system again or start figuring out a way to get what I heard.  If I walk into a Ferrari dealership and get thrown a set of keys to drive a 458, by God, I am going to drive it even though I can ill afford it. 

Preaching to the choir is great.  You are always certain to get an applause. How meaningful is that?  How meaningful is it to just simply discount a segment of the audio industry for non audio reasons or because your proletarian budget does not afford you the opportunity to buy it?   I, perhaps like some others here, have to live in the world of value where I can obtain the best sound for my ears for what I can afford.  I walk into super expensive rooms and listen so that my basis for 'value' is either established or reinforced.

I could care less what the salesman is like, more often than not I know more about audio than he or she does, I could care less what status a piece of equipment is going to give me simply because 99.8% of the people who walk in my home haven't a clue what this stuff is, much less would believe what it costs. So, I stick to sonics and can make do with discussing that rather than just throwing out derogatory personal generalizations which add little to a discussion.     
   

[Vapor Audio]

Thread is sliding downhill ... how about we just stop talking about Wilson, ok? 

[Danny Richie]

Thread is sliding downhill ... how about we just stop talking about Wilson, ok? 

Or split the thread...

[Bob in St. Louis]

I agree Ryan. It's becoming bad form.

[totoro]

What is it with the multitude of people here bashing Wilson and throwing out derogatory remarks and innuendos about them and other "expensive" manufacturers?  If one does not like their sound that's one thing, if one levels personal attacks just because of what they charge that is another. 

The simple fact of the matter is that companies such as Wilson, Nordost, Magico, et al, do matter.  Much like the often-used analogy to high priced cars in the auto industry, everyone who has a passion for audio benefits from them.  We do not have to own them to benefit from them. 

Personally, I most welcome the opportunity that these shows provide me to listen to as many audio manufacturers, regardless of their price list, as I can.  Whether I like them or not that is another matter but I know that I can sit down with any audiophile in the world and have a reasonable discussion of the merits or lack thereof, of many systems without resorting to non-audio expletives. 

That being said, when I read such statements that we don’t go into this room or that simply because they are perceived as snobs or too pricey I say, What? That is precisely why I want to go hear them. I want to know what a Beryllium, diamond tweeter in a box reinforced with six thousand titanium bolts sounds like, if only to be able to come home and love my system again or start figuring out a way to get what I heard.  If I walk into a Ferrari dealership and get thrown a set of keys to drive a 458, by God, I am going to drive it even though I can ill afford it. 

Preaching to the choir is great.  You are always certain to get an applause. How meaningful is that?  How meaningful is it to just simply discount a segment of the audio industry for non audio reasons or because your proletarian budget does not afford you the opportunity to buy it?   I, perhaps like some others here, have to live in the world of value where I can obtain the best sound for my ears for what I can afford.  I walk into super expensive rooms and listen so that my basis for 'value' is either established or reinforced.

I could care less what the salesman is like, more often than not I know more about audio than he or she does, I could care less what status a piece of equipment is going to give me simply because 99.8% of the people who walk in my home haven't a clue what this stuff is, much less would believe what it costs. So, I stick to sonics and can make do with discussing that rather than just throwing out derogatory personal generalizations which add little to a discussion.     
 

I can't tell if your reading comprehension is really poor or you just didn't read most of this thread. My particular snipe was in response to one particular poster who keeps bringing wilson into the picture in order to snipe at manufacturers here.

Really, it's been the wilson fanboys (or really one of them) who have kept bringing them up (and in a fairly snide manner).

Whatever.

[George3]

My experience with Wilson is that the sound sucks, that the people who sell it tend to be assholes,  and that the people who like  and buy their products tend to be status obsessed assholes with tin ears. You really are confirming all of my impressions so far.

Is this not what you wrote? 

[brj]

I'm finding the thread rather illuminating, actually.

I could care less what type of sound people enjoy and how they build a system to reach that sound, and their preferences certainly don't affect my opinion of them as a human being.  (Though I'll let Tyson throw my previous bias argument back at me here if he likes! )  Enjoying your personal system is the key.  Building a show system - often at the last minute - is challenging, and not even audio professionals, of whatever degree, always manage to pair hardware together to show of the constituent parts to their fullest extent.  What I find amazing is that people feel the need to tear down other systems and people at all, whether at a show or not, and in many cases based on very limited exposure and second-hand information.

T&P are correct in that some vendors do produce good consistently from year to year, but others vary, especially if the rooms are put together by a dealer looking to show a variety of brands.  And even the more consistent rooms still improve from year to year.  I always made a point of visiting the Daedalus room, for example, as I always found it very musical... down right toe-tapping, as a matter of fact.  But it was always just a bit shy in resolution in detail for my tastes, such that they never quite made my "I might buy this" list.  Had I remained firm in that decision to the point of refusing to visit their room this year, I would have missed out on the HUGE improvement that the v2 upgrade made to their speakers.  (And I acknowledge that the speakers were only part of the system - kudos to the other vendors involved as well!)

In terms of vendor behavior, one of the vendors that I admire most is James Tanner.  I've never met him or even talked to him, and I've never owned Bryston gear.  But, to my knowledge, he never says anything about other vendors or reviewers.  I've never seen evidence of fawning over those that give him a good review, nor evidence of tearing down those that give him a less-than-glowing review.  And I've never heard that he's attempted to stop a less-than-glowing review from going to press, which I know some other vendors have done.  The most I've seen him do to quote what others have written, with no personal commentary at all.  He lets his gear speak for itself.

I suspect that people will extract more enjoyment from life and audio if they listen (and think) for themselves, remain open to change, and don't dwell on the negative, either real or perceived.  I've found few things, both negative and positive, that aren't transitory in the long run anyway.  Heck, my own system has seen enough change that you'd think I had no idea where I was going or what I liked... which I suppose is actually true to a certain extent, as I certainly know far more now than when I started (which is still a tiny fraction of what I'd like to know and what others know), and more importantly, my personal preferences have evolved.

Enjoy your hobby everyone...

[dlparker]

What is it with the multitude of people here bashing Wilson and throwing out derogatory remarks and innuendos about them and other "expensive" manufacturers?  If one does not like their sound that's one thing, if one levels personal attacks just because of what they charge that is another. 

The simple fact of the matter is that companies such as Wilson, Nordost, Magico, et al, do matter.  Much like the often-used analogy to high priced cars in the auto industry, everyone who has a passion for audio benefits from them.  We do not have to own them to benefit from them. 

Personally, I most welcome the opportunity that these shows provide me to listen to as many audio manufacturers, regardless of their price list, as I can.  Whether I like them or not that is another matter but I know that I can sit down with any audiophile in the world and have a reasonable discussion of the merits or lack thereof, of many systems without resorting to non-audio expletives. 

That being said, when I read such statements that we don’t go into this room or that simply because they are perceived as snobs or too pricey I say, What? That is precisely why I want to go hear them. I want to know what a Beryllium, diamond tweeter in a box reinforced with six thousand titanium bolts sounds like, if only to be able to come home and love my system again or start figuring out a way to get what I heard.  If I walk into a Ferrari dealership and get thrown a set of keys to drive a 458, by God, I am going to drive it even though I can ill afford it. 

Preaching to the choir is great.  You are always certain to get an applause. How meaningful is that?  How meaningful is it to just simply discount a segment of the audio industry for non audio reasons or because your proletarian budget does not afford you the opportunity to buy it?   I, perhaps like some others here, have to live in the world of value where I can obtain the best sound for my ears for what I can afford.  I walk into super expensive rooms and listen so that my basis for 'value' is either established or reinforced.

I could care less what the salesman is like, more often than not I know more about audio than he or she does, I could care less what status a piece of equipment is going to give me simply because 99.8% of the people who walk in my home haven't a clue what this stuff is, much less would believe what it costs. So, I stick to sonics and can make do with discussing that rather than just throwing out derogatory personal generalizations which add little to a discussion.     
 

Very well stated! Stick to the substance, leave the personal attacks out of it. I have opinions of some people that I would never express to anyone, and I'm sure their are others who have similar opinions about me. Life goes on.

[MaxCast]

Let's keep personal issues and gripes about manufacturers out of this thread.  It's about two great guys reporting on an audio show and not about any particular company and how they do business out side of the show.
I really don't want it in quarantine where I'll have to clean it.

Thanks, and have a great weekend!! 

[audioengr]

JTW wrote:

Steve-Hmmm.  Great job on the front end.  Really, I'm impressed with the sound but you need to jazz up the casework a bit.  At $12k (for the package heard) it should look like it too. 

A major redesign and massive investment would be required.  The final system price would probably be $20K.  I would rather sell a lot of DACs at $6K and USB converters at $2K.  The margins on this are too small to even consider selling through dealers.

BTW, the Off-Ramp 6 will have the new casework, but will have a price increase.

I am actually looking forward to a new less expensive DAC design in 2014, around $2499.00, as well as a preamp.  The pre will be spendy though.  I intend to set a new standard for preamps.

Steve N.

[audioengr]

     I would like to use this "P & T's Guide to AWESOMENESS 2013" to point out that this review is AWESOME!!! I've looked for some sort of review regarding RMAF, and although it may be a bit early, nothing I've read on any show from any reviewer is as informative AND entertaining as this one. It seems that makers that have a budget for advertising get (or should I say buy) a review; whereas the smaller guys are lucky to get any mention at all, anywhere!  :banghead:Didn't the venders pay for the rooms? I'd think that RMAF would at least try to do a listing and review of everything in all the rooms that were paid for!
     Thanks again, you two, for the great job you always seem to do!!! 

I agree.  Why can't the top press reviewers do a thorough job like this?  They are mostly after the hype, name-dropping and photos IMO.  Steven Stone is one of the few that actually brings his own reference tracks to the room, but nothing like what these guys use.

I think that Tyson and Jason should sell their services to the press.  They do a much better job than anyone else, and they don't have ANY conflict of interest.

Keep up the great work

Steve N.

[James Romeyn]

I agree.  Why can't the top press reviewers do a thorough job like this?  They are mostly after the hype, name-dropping and photos IMO.  Steven Stone is one of the few that actually brings his own reference tracks to the room, but nothing like what these guys use.

I think that Tyson and Jason should sell their services to the press.  They do a much better job than anyone else, and they don't have ANY conflict of interest.

Keep up the great work

Steve N.

P&T already refused money from TAS.  They refuse to have their reports contaminated by the financial interests of the print rags.  Can you imagine their personal comments appearing in an established money making website associated with a glossy print rag?  I doubt it.  One inner cover page costs about $6k/month.   

These two guys must be the most reliable independent source of audio information extant. 

Though I'd love to see them paid, it's difficult to argue with their apparent belief that it would be all down hill from that moment forward.  They'd be just another pair of pro reviewers, the last thing in the world anyone would call them now.

Bless these two music-audio fanatics! 

[Vapor Audio]

I agree.  Why can't the top press reviewers do a thorough job like this?  They are mostly after the hype, name-dropping and photos IMO.  Steven Stone is one of the few that actually brings his own reference tracks to the room, but nothing like what these guys use.

I think that Tyson and Jason should sell their services to the press.  They do a much better job than anyone else, and they don't have ANY conflict of interest.

Keep up the great work

Steve N.

You know, Michael Fremer came by our room Friday when I was the only one in there.  He and his crew of guys stayed for a good 20-30 minutes, and you could tell he was enjoying things because he'd say "We really gotta get going, oh just one more track".  It was his Reference CD of all vinyl rips, and they did all sound very nice.  Alas, he only covers analog these days ... so we get no mention.  But the times I've talked with him over the years he seems to be one of the more down to Earth ones. 

[jtwrace]

You know, Michael Fremer came by our room Friday when I was the only one in there.  He and his crew of guys stayed for a good 20-30 minutes, and you could tell he was enjoying things because he'd say "We really gotta get going, oh just one more track".  It was his Reference CD of all vinyl rips, and they did all sound very nice.  Alas, he only covers analog these days ... so we get no mention.  But the times I've talked with him over the years he seems to be one of the more down to Earth ones.

That's easy to solve.  Put vinyl in there.   

[Vapor Audio]

That's easy to solve.  Put vinyl in there.   

Just what we need, MORE hassle and work in setting up the room ...

[jtwrace]

Just what we need, MORE hassle and work in setting up the room ...

Nah.  Mat from VPI did all of his table setups that were at the show.  They should get easier as you do more. 


I mean, the schedule of events are posted now so it's not a mystery when the shows will be.   

[poseidonsvoice]

Nah.  Mat from VPI did all of his table setups that were at the show.  They should get easier as you do more. 


I mean, the schedule of events are posted now so it's not a mystery when the shows will be.   

+1. Stick a direct drive VPI Classic (which just came out) and Fremer + Mat will be there...

I'll bring my phonostage 

Best,
Anand.

[Bob in St. Louis]

I like bunnies.

[macrojack]

I like bunnies.

Was there a PLAYBOY room? That would boost attendance, I bet.

[dlparker]

I like bunnies.

I like puppies. Do you like puppies? I have some extra BBQ sauce..