[TheChairGuy]

I know it is difficult to believe for everyone that has not heard it, but the JVC's really play great music (analog ins superior to digital ins).

I admit, I never shelled out big bucks for amplification. I am of the Brit school of budgeting where the most, relative to others components, is spent at the beginning - the source.  I have $4500 in my front end, $1500 in a BPT balanced power unit and it progressively got cheaper from there.  My speakers are either Vandy 1c's ($780 list) or modded and tricked out Optimus LX-8's (about $400 in mods and ebay purchase price).  Pre's are the IRD Purist LLC (ss) and Dynaco PAS-4 (tube) - $500 to $665 preamps each.

While moderately happy with the tunes, I figured it's the price you pay (relative audio unhappiness) by being a cheapo.

My enjoyment with a Superphon DM200 amp was nonexistent.  That amp oscillated and was a lousy plodder.

The $600 list AudioSource AMP3 does some things right, but no enjoyment, no presence there. A darn good 400w monoblock sub amp tho, for the money (on used market for $250.00)

Norh Multiamps?  Thin, undynamic, restrained.  I ran them stereo, biamp and in active biamp (on the Optimus LX-8's).  Lovely midband (like a SET) and substandard everythign else.

Now, you might say these weren't hi-end contenders..and I might agree.

Before I bought the JVC, I bought DIYCable's Exodus 2.2se.  A $1050.00 digital amp with all the BlackGate goodies stuffed inside. Hugely powerful, effortless extension...hooked up to either the Dynaco or Purist.  It would probably have been a joyous additon a year or two ago for me.....but it doesn't breathe the musc like the JVC.  Price considered or not, I honestly felt the JVC smokes it...and gives you the great pleasure of remote tuning and volume to boot at 1/10 the cost (all components and cables cobbled together).

I don't want that to be a blanket and final condemnation of the Exodus, I'm still testing it, but it's my unshakeable feeling that I can't walk away from.  I have a small room, small speakers, don't play loud, etc, so I may not be fairly comparing the capabilites of the Exodus relative to the little JVC.  But, for me and all too many others now it seems, the JVC is their ticket.

Hope this helps Carl and Zane to shed some light on what this little guy is about - it's good.  We have another skeptic in the form of Lonewolf is burning one in in his basement right now.

Et tu, Lonewolf, care to chime in now? - it's 10 days I think now.....

[tubeytubeamp]

I've finally figured out where the loud buzzing is coming from on the JVC. I had originally thought it was the fan, but it turns out to be the power supply and it doesn't matter if I plug it into the wall socket or power conditioner, the noise will not go away.

So I will be returning the unit to Costco and I'll order the RX-F10 from J&R.

So, it will be back to the analog amps for a week or so and then through the whole breakin process again.

Dennis

[lonewolfny42]

Et tu, Lonewolf, care to chime in now? - it's 10 days I think now.....  

Et tu....Bless you, do you have a cold ?

Well John, it's out of the basement. In fact, took it to Phil's NY Rave gathering last weekend. It had been burning in for about 200 hours. The results there were positive. It did not sound better than the two Blue Circle amps he has in his main system (one SS,one Hybred Tube), but it did sound better than his 50 watt Blue Circle intergrated and my Carver ZR 1600, which we tried. In the smaller set-up with Focus 688 speakers and an R.A. Opus 21 player sounded fine(five pairs of ear's listening). We latter put it in Phil's main system with larger Focus 888 speakers and it powered those speakers very well. But the sound was very plain, no real depth. Ok, but not better than his main system. But, that system is worth big $$$$, and the JVC cost me less than $200.00.[/list:u]
I brought it back home, back down the basement, and put some more hours on it. Yesterday , after about another 100 hours of playing, its in my main system. Now up to about 300 hours of burn in.[/list:u]
It's now powering Mirage M-3 speakers, with my EA Turbomod 7700 player and EA Turbomod ECD-1 dac as the source.[/list:u]
The sound....well it's not tube like, at least to my ears. It has the watts to power some very good speakers , at Phil's and in my system. But I feel its missing something. Maybe it's just "too digital" a sound ?? The sound is very clear and detailed. Two weeks ago , I had the AKSA 100N+ amp here. That amp had a tube like quality, with alot of depth and air around the music.[/list:u]
If someone were to ask which I prefer, I would prefer the AKSA. The JVC is ....good for the price....inexpensive....but I have heard better, and at a "higher cost". The fun part is the remote... [/list:u]
I believe these digital units will improve as time goes on. Their getting closer to a natural sound with each one that comes to market. Those happy with their JVC....great ! For me , its fun , but not the last word in hi-fi..... [/list:u]

[ooheadsoo]

I'm not surprised at all that there's stuff that sounds better.  I do have to say that there's stuff that costs more that doesn't sound better.  That's the rub.  For guys with $200 in their pockets, I don't see too many options here...

[lonewolfny42]

I'm not surprised at all that there's stuff that sounds better.  I do have to say that there's stuff that costs more that doesn't sound better.  That's the rub.  For guys with $200 in their pockets, I don't see too many options here...

Your right...for $200.00 ....a decent receiver that sounds good....for what it is.

By the way....am I loaning you the Mensa dac ??[/list:u]

[ooheadsoo]

Hey lonewolfny.  I'm of the opinion that my diy tube preamp with an old vintage nad's power section didn't sound as good as this receiver.  It's also made my life 1000x easier in the integration of my subwoofer for 2.1.  The nad/tube combo cost easily 3-4x more than this receiver.  It didn't sound bad.  Neither does this jvc.  I got some money back, which is a good thing.

I don't mean to string you along on that dac offer  I'm working on getting a diy dac built for me as I type this.  How about you loan that dac to me when I get the diy dac done and I can do a 3 way shootout with my proaudio soundcard's crystal dac, the mensa, and the diy?  No promises on any definitive statements since I don't have golden ears, though

[lonewolfny42]

 I don't mean to string you along on that dac offer  I'm working on getting a diy dac built for me as I type this. How about you loan that dac to me when I get the diy dac done and I can do a 3 way shootout with my proaudio soundcard's crystal dac, the mensa, and the diy? No promises on any definitive statements since I don't have golden ears, though  

Whenever your ready...just let me know.

[TheChairGuy]

Loanwolfy,

Very cool that you gave the JVC a good run...especially compared to higher priced brethren.

I think the lack of depth you mention is but an IEC mod away...DMason says it really helps the JVC to breathe.  A fatty Jensen and some Blackgates in the Power Supply (maybe a couple Bybee's cleaning things coming in) and you might just have a truly world-beating $700.00 piece of gear.  The base version is so good that it begs comparison with better....before anything substantial is done to the power supply area.

It just needs little brawn in the power supply to give it that 'depth' and a lower noise floor to give it that 'air' around the instruments that it lacks.

But the amazing thing about it is that it creates real fine music for $200.00.

Ya' pretty much got it burnt in now at 300 hours, so you got the best of what you're gonna' hear - stock.  It does respond to tweeks tho....ZSleeves on the IC's, silver bearing grease, balaned conditioner (whioch I guess Phil had on in the form of the Blue Circle Music Ring) a mere touch of ERS cloth on to (and I mean mere touch only).  I put Cardas rca caps on most of the unused inlets...didn't hear a difference with those.  But, they look so purdy  

[TheChairGuy]

Chris/Wolfy,

I JUST read the 5 pages devoted to the NY Audio Rave get together last weekend...missed it until now.  Good stuff  

[lonewolfny42]

Chris/Wolfy,

I JUST read the 5 pages devoted to the NY Audio Rave get together last weekend...missed it until now.  Good stuff  

With pictures too !!!

To make it easy, here's the

NY Rave link.[/list:u]

[-Richard-]

I have been away for 2 weeks traveling and was able to
catch up on the unfolding dialogues in this thread
last night.

During my stay in NYC I heard Quad 998's and the
Harbeth 7ES played on all Linn gear...the CD spinner
alone was well over $20,000.00...the separate SS amp and
SS preamp were also very expensive...the cables looked like
expensive thick garden hoses...

Both speakers performed well...as they should...the sound
was nicely controlled, easy to listen to, with an
occasional glassy upper frequency edginess...and on the
Quads, a bit of beaming here and there...all in all, well
mannered...

However my impression was that the sound was flat and
for the most part dead...even worse, I felt I was listening to
Hi Fi...

Last night, as soon as I stepped through the door, I powered up
my little JVC F10...the spinner is the humble Pioneer 563A...
Scott Nixon Tube Dac Plus...Signal Cables attaching everything...
no power conditioner...stock power cord...Ruark Crusader 2 speakers...

A few hours later Deb and I sat down to listen...Deb almost
immediately commented "This sounds better...more real...
more convincing...then anything we have ever heard in any
audio store or demonstration..."

I realize that I have been characterized as being somewhat
"romantic" in my responses to what I think I am hearing with the
JVC...and that is probably inevitable given the extreme response
I have to music...music for me...and I must say it is just as true for
Deborah...is one of the most moving experiences we can have...we
are quite literally moved beyond the mundane world of mechanical
responses...past the dulling repetition of habits that wear out, over
time, our ability to respond to life with a real freshness of spirit...
with a voluptuous curiosity...with a profound exaltation of feeling...

The energetic roots of feeling truly alive...the energy that pulsates
through our emotional "inner life" is always being dulled by the
accumulation of experience...we become dulled and crave ever
more amplified and heightened experiences just to feel alive...

What I heard last night moved me once again...moved me to
"feel" that ineffable other-dimensional-emotional zone, that music
has the power to bring about...music seems to vibrate our invisible inner
strands of emotional fibers that raise our "frequency" of feeling to higher
levels of responsiveness...

I did not feel that with the SS Linn electronics.

Yes...I know that we are all very good at comparing this with that...
it could be argued that the entire basis for aesthetics...is based primarily
on a highly conditioned apparatus of comparison...on the brains retaining
the memory of one experience and placing it next to another and making
a decision of which seems to come closer to whatever ideal we imagine
is of a higher order of quality...

What I am hearing is not compatible with ideas like "mid-fi" or "hi-fi"...

Essentially what I am looking for is to experience that magic that is
unique to music...the ability to make us feel...to feel life flowing through
us...to feel alive...to push us out of the mechanical life that we are
immersed in as a direct result of the deadening emotional/cultural life
we have carefully constructed as a bastion against change and uncertainty.

DMason presented the JVC as an example of what could be achieved
with a new technology for next to nothing in price...a new paradigm of
the possible...

What DMason, the Chairguy, myself and others are hearing is pure
magic...but the JVC is not capable of being subjected to strict comparisons
without finding at least something about it that does not do some audio trick
quite as well as something else...that was never the point here...

This thread is about what is possible...in the here and now...that can get
us to that magic land were music lives...were it breaths with something like
a life-like spirit...

It is also about being a good "researcher"...a kind of cultural anthropologist,
so-to-speak, that can travel the pathways of mass market offerings to find
the diamonds that lurk there...hidden by their apparent low caste...yet
"genetically" of a very high order of excellence of performance...

I have read that several participants to this thread have found the little JVC
wanting...

DMason has said many times that ones take on these things...ones sense of
where the magic lies in audio is a very personal experience...it seems we all
hear things a bit differently...

I suspect that must account for some of the differences of opinion here...also
perhaps some of us have had our expectations raised by some of our very
enthusiastic responses...and they may feel those expectations have not been
adequately met...and that may lead to a feeling of disappointment...

Still there is also the issue of allegiances to older circuitry paradigms that may
even be operating within the not-fully-explored realm of the unconscious...
a kind of resistance to the new...

There is also the issue of the JVC being a low caste...a cheap mass market
item that refuses, in its present incarnation, to appeal to our elitist notions
of what we think a higher order of performance machine should look like,
or cost...

I am not in any way suggesting that other members responses are not valid.
Most participants to these threads are very sophisticated listeners or on their
way to being sophisticated listeners and very honest in their opinions.

We must also account somewhat for compatibility or synergy of the other
components in the audio chain...and there is the issue of "modding"...
DMason feels the power cord will have a very apparent impact on the
quality of sound, for example.

But I would like to reiterate what I have said before. The JVC F10 is an
extraordinary amp in the right system...extraordinary in every way that
matters to me...it creates the magic that moves me...it  helps to transcend
the mechanical reproduction processes that we must use to play back
a live musical event...

I for one am deeply thankful to DMason and Chairguy for all of their
enthusiastic help and generous sharing of their knowledge and
experience...

Let our explorations and sharing of our experiences continue.

Warm regards -Richard-

[ooheadsoo]

Has anyone disconnected the fan yet?  Also, if someone could post a pictorial on how to replace the power cord........much obliged

Richard, I appreciate your encouragement

J North, how much is that vecteur?  Most likely out of my league for a few years, but it's always good to know.

[J North]

Well, I had to out the JVC back in the system now as the Vecteur I-4 integrated went back to its owner. My thoughts were confirmed again. The JVC does not hold a candle to the Vecteur in MY system.

The JVC hides and messes up the wonderfull signal coming out of my Museatex Bidat (full mods). The Vectuer gave me all the magic you guys talk about with your JVC's. I also went to a hifi Saloon today and listed to $10,000 of B&W/Rotel/Bryston setup. Did not give me the same fix I got with the Vecteur. I am going to try a few other amps (audio Nervosa) and then probably get a Vecteur.

PS: The Panny's do not do it for me either.

[geofstro]

I have now gone beyond the 300 hour mark on my JVC. Since I've been travelling though, most of those 300 hours have been put on by sending an FM station through at vol 1, so I suspect I may have a some more real warm up time left to go.

I say this because I noticed last night that when I sat sown to listen to a serious source at a real volume level, it sounded good to start with; but got better after the first hour or so. I could have been imagining it; but that's what I perceived. The sound seemed a bit thin at first and gradually seemed to become richer and more complex in ways that better served the music.

A couple of observations on the various input options:

So that I could have my TT hooked up to the DVD-Multi RCA connections, I have my transport going into the digital coax right now.

Although most of you here have found the digital input inferrior, I'm beginning to wonder. If everyone feeding the digital connection is going staight in with their transports, and if perhaps there could be a jitter issue. Many good DACs do try to correct jitter. I'm feeding my CEC TL-2X firstly to a GW Labs jitter corrector, thence to the JVC. With this set-up I find myself being drawn beguilingly into the music, when I had only intended to put on a CD as background while reading. Last night a fascinating book on music by David Toop stayed suspended in one hand for an hour, since I couldn't tear myself away from the music. I've had this happen before using my Fi-X Fi-Y combo; but I didn't expect it through the JVC, especially using the Digital input.

When I go back to my DAC feeding DVD-Multi I may prefer it, I'll have to see.

I'm still trying to get my head round the technical reasons why the DVD-Multi should sound better than plain analogue for two channel. I understand it's meant to skip a decoding stage; but I don't understand why. DVD-Multi is named that way so that you can hook up multiple channels via analogue. As I said before I got a 'free' JVC DVD player with my purcahase and the manual states that that particular player cannot be used via DVD-Multi. This is nonesense because any old analogue connection can go into DVD-Multi. What they must mean is that the DVD player in question, only has stereo  outputs and the only way to get multichannel out of it is via the digital output.

Anyway, I found that because I also have a scart input marked DVD-Multi I could plug the DVD player into that, select DVD-Multi and it would play through the magical DVD-Multi setting. So what would happen if I tried playing my TT )which is hooked up to the RCA's which are always DVD-Multi) at the same time? Answer: I hear both the record and the sound from the DVD player at the same time. Weird! I was hoping the JVC would detect an input on one and automatically mute the other.

This has given me a solution for playing everthing through DVD-Multi though. All I've got to do is get a Stereo RCA to Scart cable, run it from my DAC, send all digital sources to the DAC leaving my TT going into the RCA's.

I wonder if this is possible with the US version. On the Euro version any input that;s marked DVD can do DVD-Multi; but none of the others can be allocated to DVD-Multi.

Finally a couple of pages ago Carlman stated that

Comparing say a BC evo2i to a Panasonic XR-45 isn't even a comparison. The BC sounds as many times better as it costs.

That may or may not be true. Richard has spoken about Hi-Fi, Mid-Fi nd and Music and the differences between them. I've heard a lot of 'High-End' systems that do very impressive things, like allow you to hear the champagne glasses tinkling in the background and in that sense be very transparent and revealing; but they don't always make music.

Systems that have made music for me have usually involved Horn speakers and/or SET amps and now this little JVC and the TEAC,

When/if I can afford a Bel canto or similar high-end digital amp, I will put it up against the JVC and I tell ya, it better do a convincing job!!! Especially if the JVC is fully modded.

I think that would be a great idea for a shoot out, if anyone could organise it. Even if I couldn't participate, I'd love to read the results.

BTW does anyone have a recommendation for a good value RCA-Scart cable?

J North

I've just read your post. I've also got the Museatex BiDat with full mods and I suspect it may not be a good match for the JVC. I posted that before and your post makes me even more inclined to believe it. I'm not trying to let the JVC off the hook and you may well find you still prefer your other amp, whatever the DAC; just posting my findings that's all. The JVC is quite rich, full and complex and the BiDat also goes in that direction, in my experience of it. Try just feeding your transport via coaxial in with an anti jitter device between your JVC and transport.

As I say I'm not trying to be an apologiser for the JVC. It could simply be that I'm experiencing a particular set of synergies with my current set up which includes the Horn Shoppe horns.

Thanks

geoff

[ooheadsoo]

For anyone interested, the JVC does not work with the fan disconnected.  It will shut off everytime I hit 14 or 15 on the volume.  What about turning down the fan speed?  Anyone know a good resistor value...and what leg of the wires to put it on, red or black?

[Carlman]

Finally a couple of pages ago Carlman stated that

Comparing say a BC evo2i to a Panasonic XR-45 isn't even a comparison. The BC sounds as many times better as it costs.

That may or may not be true. Richard has spoken about Hi-Fi, Mid-Fi nd and Music and the differences between them. I've heard a lot of 'High-End' systems that do very impressive things, like allow you to hear the champagne glasses tinkling in the background and in that sense be very transparent and revealing; but they don't always make music.
 ...

For me it was true since I compared them in the same room, on the same system.  I also compared a Sharp digital amp.  The Bel Canto sounded better than all of them.

Whether there was magical musical nuances captured, I don't know... the BC sounds better to me.  My AKSA sounds better in some ways to the BC and the Panasonic misses the mark compared to both.  It does nothing musical or magical for me with the speakers I've tried it on.

I think the point I'm getting here is that if you like that low-power, single-driver sound... and that is what does that magical thing for you, chances are that you won't like anything else.  Because, you've found what sounds natural to your ears....  

I continue to be amazed at how different a pair of speakers or an amp can sound.  However, so far... that low power/single driver sound hasn't done it for me.  So, my comments are based on liking expensive, dead, sterile... well, you know 'hi-fi'.

[TheChairGuy]

geofstro,

Keep it burning, but I'd think you are about done now.  It should be at a point to fully evaluate it.

Don't know a thing about Scarts...they are completely foreign in the US.  As my dim memory serves me from reading Brit Hi-Fi mags, it is a rather longish (or wide) connector, so the place it takes on your JVC may have removed a few of the analog rca's (to use with DVD Multi) that we have for subwoofer, surrounds, etc.  Just conjecturing tho...not sure.

For DMason, -Richard-, Panda Gary and myself...we are largely disinterested in pursuing amp matters further.  We all probably know that the JVC isn't perfection, but it is so far up in the 'food chain' for so little, that we are largely disinterested in looking further.  So much does have to do with up and downline components, but with vastly different tastes, components, budgets, experiences, etc...we all came up with the same conclusion: that a $300 receiver is as good, or almost as, good as anything we've heard to date in our listening rooms.  That says a lot.

Your point on jitter correction via digital input could be correct, but I have a highly modified Empirical Audio modded transport run in thru there (tried both coax and glass toslink) and it was inferior to the sound I got with my DAC running thru DVD Multi/analog ins.  There ain't that much jitter left in my transport (always some, of course as it does not have a new clock in it).

Tho inferior, there was somthing about the simplicity of it all that was very interesting.  I'm not sure I heard this actually, or convinced myself of it, but it was the sense I had in listening thru digital connection. Simplicity, less complicated, less mechanical, pureness..something like that.

Tho I'm past the point of needing additional good reviews of this receiver to validate my hearing, it's always great to hear more of it  

[ooheadsoo]

I think there must be a better fan option out there.  Clearly some part in there overheats quickly without the fan on, so some type of cooling is going to be needed.  Most convenient would be a quieter fan or, on the cheap side, a resistor in series.  Anyone have any ideas?  How many ohms should the resistor be?  If we could get the unit to be more quiet, it would be a super easy tweak that anyone could do.

[Dmason]

Well, I have been listening to my low budget, down-market rig for three hours now and am pretty satisfied. Hell, my speakers don't even have crossovers, so I can't imagine how they'd keep up with the new.....

Right now I am listening to a bootleg remaster of a 1977 Emerson, Lake & Palmer show with the orchestra, a recent gift from the current technician for this band's keyboardist, originally mixed at the FOH desk, done such that it puts me IN the venue, with the JVC-Fostex outfit. I am getting sounds from "ten feet behind" the speakers, and somehow --comment if you have heard this one-- sound in front of my face, and even seemingly from behind me. All of it sounds like Real Music. Coherent and beautiful. I can almost immediately nail the key signature, unlike so many other systems, -a test of musical coherency to me, being tested by a keyboard in the room...

My 29 year personal audio and music journey is fast coming to its logical conclusion, having owned over fifty speakers, twenty amplifiers, many players of various kinds, and my destination high end system is worth about ....one thousand dollars...            

My final comment and advice: An ounce of pretension is worth a pound of manure....so trust your ears.

[AphileEarlyAdopter]

Folks,
I think, listening at home, always has a different feel. It is the different environment at the store, which biases you negatively to the sound there. It does not mean that sound is bad, you should probably hear the same system at home. Nowadays, I stopped buying in a store and always buy used at audiogon or new online (if it is not a big amount). I then listen to that component for a while and then sell if it is not good. But ticket purchases the b&m store is still the recommened option, I guess.

I am happy to hear Geoff like the digital input on the JVC, which is a criterion for me to buy any amp now or in the future. I do not have a good DAC or intent to spend money on it. I am trying to be un-audiophile. It is also encouraging to hear ChairGuy talk about the simplicity of the digital sound. My question to you all - how does different recordings sound on the analog input of the JVC ? With my XR50, it varies a lot ..very drastic. Sometimes to the point of being annoying.

J North, the Vecteur has a very good power supply (25 lbs or more) and does not have any capacitors in the signal path. In my experience, the power supply is one of the major contributors to the sonics in an amp. You are probably enjoying better macrodynamics (courtesy power supply) and microdynamcis (no capactiors, probably good output devices etc).  The only way to even the playing field for the JVC, a victim of its price point, is atleast replace the power cord and use it with a good isolation or balanced transformer.