[TheChairGuy]

Because the JVC F-10 thread was getting very long and meandering, and because we have a few of us with the ES1 and a few more coming to the party, here is a new thread to lap up.

If I see a too long thread (the F10 is now 21 pages loooong), and haven't kept up along the way, I lose interest in it, too.  So, maybe a few more of us will participate in this one.  Hell, Horizons started the thread on June 9 and hasn't been heard from for a month or more...or, like, 15 pages  

Seminarian asked:

I know you have listed them but this thread is so long it takes forever to find the list. So, Chairguy, could you list your tweaks on this JVC one more time.

I have one (the ES1SL) coming sometime this week! Will be able to compare it to the Norh SE-9.

Yep, they are (in no particular order of significance or entry into the system)

* 2 ZCable Ultra Zsleeves (1 on digi cable, one on IC) - $300 each ($600 - gulp..at least they friggin' work; praise be the lord )

* 2 'homebrew' 36 layer ZSleeves (I'll call them TCGSleeves   ) I made with aluminum foil, copper tape, paper towel roll and ERS cloth (1 each on each run on the el cheapo CAT6 Mohawk speaker cables)...cost about $50 each in materials.  Not sure of they work as well as a genuine ZSleeve, but they seem to be effective.

* 1 Highwire PowerWrap on JVC fixed cord ($24.95)

* 1 ERS cloth (enhanced with a layer of aluminum foil and copper tape) on top and bottom of JVC  - about $38 total in materials (deal from Cryotweaks.com on ERS...check it out )

* Mapleshade silver bearing grease on rca's used, and power cable outlet prongs

* Everything in my system runs thru a BPT BP-2 Ultra with upgrades (cryo silver wire, Zsleeve, hi current filter and upgraded litz power cord).  Not really a tweek, but probably helpful in giving the JVC clean juice and overcoming it's power supply shortcomings.

[ABEX]

It might be of interest that someone has stated they are having luck using a Cyber Power Surge unit with Digital Amps.

I have one of the units running with my computer and tomarrow if time permits I shall be taking it offline and insering it into my system to see weather it is a good product to use with my Panny 45.

Using it with analog gear sucked!

What I want to know about are the new Sharp Amps and what others will be using as a Processor. If it is good I will work on outfitting my whole system with them and purchasing the best SS processor I can afford.

[TheChairGuy]

Hey, a neat idea ABEX.

I have the 1500AVR here, and haven't tried it for a time on the system.  It didn't add anything noticably bad to the overall sound before, but I was straining to hear the good it added.

Why would a voltage stabilizer work better, at least in theory, with digital amplification than ss or tubes?

Off it went into the video system where is most certainly improved the video on my Sony 24" and, maybe , improved the sound in conjunction iwth a Monster Cable PowerBar 1100.

I've been looking hard at the Furman voltage stabilizer now out...and under a grand if you shop around.  The ExactPower piece has gotten too pricey to try.

[ABEX]

Hey, a neat idea ABEX.

Why would a voltage stabilizer work better, at least in theory, with digital amplification than ss or tubes?

 ...

Read what is said in this thread as it will explain the theory behind using the CyberPower unit:(hit DISPLAY and read down)

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/50299.html

This is a quote from Mark the poster that tried it:
The CyberPower outputs a modified Square wave, and as such, is NOT compatible with analog devices.

I have found them to work well with CD/DVD player/trasports and digital receivers.

Used on a system's digital component the Cyberpower also can serve to isolate the CD player's digital "noise" from infulencing the analog device's sound (ie, the preamp or amp). But certainly the CyberPower is not designed for the analog components.

I need to check it out myself!

As for Power units.I would want to have 5-10 of them to see what improvement they provided as they seem to be very synergistic from what I have read.

[TheChairGuy]

ABEX,

Good link, thanks.

Let me know what your findings are with the CyberPower hooked up to the Panny...I may just try it out here on the JVC.

(Mark) MHampton is none other than Mark Hampton of ZCable...the man has a very good ear.  He initially turned me on to the CyberPower (ZSleeves, too) and first stoked my imagination on digi amplification about 4 months ago.

I wonder how he daisy chains the CyberPower with the BPT? I guess you run the transport, DAC and digi receiver into the CyberPower first, then the CyberPower into the BPT.  Don't see any other way of doing it...at least at too-tired 11:45PM.

    choices, choices...

[TheChairGuy]

I've got to read a bit more on the Furman unit and whether it outputs a full or partial/modified square wave, too.....

[TheChairGuy]

Hell, it's midnite now and I just hooked the CyberPower into the system.

I'll listen to the combo tomorrow - crap, I have the disease bad now.

Hey ABEX, if you haven't already, snip the molded plug end of the Cyberpower off and put a nice brass ended 5266 or similar on there.  It's a nice upgrade...none other than Mark Hampton tuned me into that tweek.

[Dmason]

Hey, ChairDude, does your unit have the DSP based EQ?

One thing I noticed with F10 is that the DSP reverb tails are quite good quality, and I have been using the Hall one to fatten up some early classical CD's, early as in the existence of CD's. It works well in making them far more enjoyable to listen to. It is a good reverb tail, and is on par, or surpasses my studio quality Lexicon of four years. Technology marches on. Audiophile or not, this musician can hear instrument separation more easily. A welcome addition.

[TheChairGuy]

Dmason,

The ES1 has DSP functions, but I haven't played around with it...yet.  I think I am still to in awe of great sound and remote volume and switching that my mouth is agape too often while fingers should be pouring all over the manual to see what this thing does.

I've also been told I am a slow starter to things, but a very complete learner of those things I want to learn about.  It's almost a selective ADD I have  

This baby is worth learning abit more about, fer shure  

[Horizons]

Hell, Horizons started the thread on June 9 and hasn't been heard from for a month or more...or, like, 15 pages  

I have been reading the extensive responses. I still haven't heard these units so I have little to add. I just like to stir the pot - you audiophools are great in your responses.

Believe it or not, I am radically torn in two different directions. I have a lot of vintage gear and I have also heard the Panny XR45. I still love the sound of my rebuilt Son of Ampzilla! The Panny's sound great (very detailed) but I feel most of the digital amps that I have heard lack the warmth of tubes and beefy solid state boat anchors (like the Son). I am hoping that the JVC might bridge the gap.  I also have power loving Maggie 1.6QRs to drive. The Panny XR-45 drives them OK but still sounds a little thin.

[ABEX]

Chair Guy:
I still have a plug around someplace I can use for the Cyber Unit. Will add it if the unit makes a difference in my setup.

Pressed for time right now!

[TheChairGuy]

Horizons,

I'm just speculating, but JVC might just have bridged that gap in sound quality you speak of...they actually admit to deficiencies in all-digital amplification, while pointing out shortcomings of solid state outputs, as well.

I'm not sure it's up to snuff to pulling those Maggies tho...they are brutal I've heard.  You'd need to stiffen the power supply significantly to get a good grip on those.

As are all things from for-profit manufacturers, they are jockeying for competitive advantage in the market.  However, this is the company that maintains a very small music label (next to the monolith that is JVC)  and prides itself on the sound quality of it's process called XRCD (and rightly so), so they do seem to have a claim to higher fidelity than many of the Japanese heavies.  Most mega-corporations would've scrapped a small division like that long ago...it's almost a measure of pride that they turn out good music over there.

Also, I'm sure it was plain old easier for JVC to use all digital amplification, and cheaper, than incorporating feedback in the designs.

Ultimately, it's the result that counts...and this little baby just plain old sings...

Again from JVC's Aussie site on Hybrid Digital Amplification......

RX-ES1SL--a Comprehensive AV Control Receiver

Hybrid Feedback Digital Amplifier

The RX-ES1SL, a comprehensive AV control centre, houses all five amps for 5.1-channel surround with the high power of 100W x 5. Its remarkable feature is the JVC-developed Hybrid Feedback Digital Amplifiers. The process of digital amplification combines high efficiency and reduced power dissipation through heat loss, so it requires a smaller transformer and power supply. As a result, it can be designed compact in size and lightweight.

But digital amps in conventional designs are not free from drawbacks. Analogue-digital conversion of signals generates harmful digital noise, while fluctuations in the power-supply voltages and power-supply noise can also cause analogue noise. The JVC Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp provides a unique solution for the problem, which uses two feedback systems. First, the digital feedback significantly improves the precision with which the PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) signals are generated. Second, the analogue feedback ensures the waveform of the analogue signal at output is identical to that at input.

The combination of the two feedbacks provides dual benefits as follows:
First, it significantly reduces distortion and noise. The total harmonic distortion of the Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp is as low as one tenth that of conventional designs. Signal-to-noise ratio is also improved, ensuring smooth, noiseless sound even at low volumes.

The Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp also ensures high speaker drivability. With conventional amps, the output levels are not stable because they are affected by the frequency response of the speaker impedance. This leads to insufficient bass and less realistic sound fields. With sufficient feedback from speaker terminals, JVC’s Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp realises an extremely high damping factor of approx. 500 at 1kHz, whereas it’s less than 100 with amps incorporated in other same-class receivers. The result is stable output across the frequency range, which ensures substantial bass and optimum sound fields.

[TheChairGuy]

Horizons,

I'm just speculating, but JVC might just have bridged that gap in sound quality you speak of...they actually admit to deficiencies in all-digital amplification, while pointing out shortcomings of solid state outputs, as well.

I'm not sure it's up to snuff to pulling those Maggies tho...they are brutal I've heard.  You'd need to stiffen the power supply significantly to get a good grip on those.

As are all things from for-profit manufacturers, they are jockeying for competitive advantage in the market.  However, this is the company that maintains a very small music label (next to the monolith that is JVC)  and prides itself on the sound quality of it's process called XRCD (and rightly so), so they do seem to have a claim to higher fidelity than many of the Japanese heavies.  Most mega-corporations would've scrapped a small division like that long ago...it's almost a measure of pride that they turn out good music over there.

Also, I'm sure it was plain old easier for JVC to use all digital amplification, and cheaper, than incorporating feedback in the designs.

Ultimately, it's the result that counts...and this little baby just plain old sings...

Again from JVC's Aussie site on Hybrid Digital Amplification......

RX-ES1SL--a Comprehensive AV Control Receiver

Hybrid Feedback Digital Amplifier

The RX-ES1SL, a comprehensive AV control centre, houses all five amps for 5.1-channel surround with the high power of 100W x 5. Its remarkable feature is the JVC-developed Hybrid Feedback Digital Amplifiers. The process of digital amplification combines high efficiency and reduced power dissipation through heat loss, so it requires a smaller transformer and power supply. As a result, it can be designed compact in size and lightweight.

But digital amps in conventional designs are not free from drawbacks. Analogue-digital conversion of signals generates harmful digital noise, while fluctuations in the power-supply voltages and power-supply noise can also cause analogue noise. The JVC Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp provides a unique solution for the problem, which uses two feedback systems. First, the digital feedback significantly improves the precision with which the PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) signals are generated. Second, the analogue feedback ensures the waveform of the analogue signal at output is identical to that at input.

The combination of the two feedbacks provides dual benefits as follows:
First, it significantly reduces distortion and noise. The total harmonic distortion of the Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp is as low as one tenth that of conventional designs. Signal-to-noise ratio is also improved, ensuring smooth, noiseless sound even at low volumes.

The Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp also ensures high speaker drivability. With conventional amps, the output levels are not stable because they are affected by the frequency response of the speaker impedance. This leads to insufficient bass and less realistic sound fields. With sufficient feedback from speaker terminals, JVC’s Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp realises an extremely high damping factor of approx. 500 at 1kHz, whereas it’s less than 100 with amps incorporated in other same-class receivers. The result is stable output across the frequency range, which ensures substantial bass and optimum sound fields.

[TheChairGuy]

ABEX,

It's conclusive, with the CyberPower daisy chained into the BPT things....sounded worse.   Immediately and noticeably worse off.

Like a fine veil over the music, it was noticeable.  Also the dynamics (bass, particularly) seemed compressed and there was a 'ringing' to the music, where there was beauty before.

It is possible, due to the hybrid nature of the JVC, that it did degrade the analog portion of it's design enough to offset wheatever positives it added to the digital portion.  A nulling effect.  It would seem that all-digi receivers may be beter test cases for using teh CyberPower.  So, I'd like to hear your take on how it performs on your Panny.

I did not try, alone, the transport without the JVC in the CyberPower unit, as well.

Real weird was that the CyberPower, hooked up to the BPT, indicated 'faulty wiring' ((no faulty wiring running into the wall direct) on the front panel.  Wonder if the BPT was wired out of phase...but all 5 duplex's registered the same thing, so I'm not sure.  

Out of phase could've darn well caused the unpleasantness I heard...however, I hooked the digi gear straight up to the CyberPower (no feed into the BPT) and it was still not as good as straight into the BPT (no CyberPower anywhere in the chain).

And the hunt goes on for perfection.....

[ABEX]

Chairguy:
  I shall try things when time permits. Like Mike stated in the thread for Analog it sucks,so I will see. I do ot know how the JVC is setup internally to do analog.

Did you take the BPT totally out of the chain and just try the Cyber unit?

Anyway I will look into when time permits. I really am not looking forward to unpluging everything--Lazy today due to the heat and personnel affairs going on.

---------------------------------------

[ABEX]

Horizons:
      EARS has posted his impressions of the JVC on the AVS BB and what is written seems to reflect that the JVC unit would be more to your likeing.

The Panasonic 45 has a few shortcomings,but as I have said for the money it is great for what it does do right. It certainly is alot better than anything in the form of A\AB amps coming from the fareast.Mated with the correct speakers it could easily be a mainstay for alot of people plus save a lot of $$.

What I want to see is what possiblities one can have if they use seperate Digi Amps. I would also think they might be easier to impplement mods to ,like Post and internal wiring for a few easy mods. The Sharps look real intresting!

If one can get a NEAR SOTA HT\2ch. setup for around 2K then that would be a godsend for those that cannot afford $10K to get it right. Until I can do that I am leaving my setups as they are .One system for HT and the other for a dedicated reference 2\ch.  system.

Just thinking!Good luck

[TheChairGuy]

I have never had a component that was so ruthlessly revealing of what it was fed before the RX-ES1sl.

Whether it is the music choice, interconnect, or tweek, I am able to discern and rather quickly judge if it works for me or not, far quicker than ever before.  

Everything in my system was the same a month ago as now...except the amplification.  Everything now tried, from the introduction of a subwoofer, to new or new-ish interconnects and power cables, to the damn silver bearing grease from MapleShade is wondrously apparent.  It's not so finicky as it is just very good, very open, very dynamic music being played on this thing...and it makes every choice more exacting.  

I am a bit concerned all my 'gushing' about this little wonder will make all to many of you go out and buy it and, many, may not gush as I am.  Again, I am having these results with the aforementioned equipment in my system...your mileage may vary.  Again, it ain't perfect, but it is damn fine period, especially for the measley $179.00.

This baby is still bone stock, too, and yields much improvement with a real he-man power cable swap alone.

[RoadTripper]

Hey Chairguy,

What are you doing about speaker cables for this thing.  I would hazard a guess that your better (best) cables don't have ragged wire ends on them but have either spades or bananas.  So how are you dealing with getting the best cables in this system given that you have to handle those spring clips on the JVC?

[ABEX]

Seminarian
I market cable which works great with these units.I use a Panny which use the same posts.
www.nearsota.com

I am using my OTA at the moment,but I like my Ag spirals the best and Ag is said not to work with the digi amps,but mine does a good job.

A few people here use my cables. DrD our resident Digital Amp Guru has some of my cable also.
-------------------
Chairguy
The unit acts almost as a Passive controller does. When Using an Active Pre it seems to place a veil over the soundstage. Using a Passive completely obliterates the veiling. Seeing that there is not as many junctures\Circuits or points to work through the less likely of gettng the veiling.The more electronics like Caps and circuits it by-passes the better things sound.  

It is almost a straight line from the transport to the outputstage of the reciever.

The Panny makes things almost totally transparent,but there are a few areas that could be better. I will not get into them,but things will improve the more these designs get intergrated into the mainstream.

I use to use an FT Audio Passive Controller for cable design work last summer and it allowed me to hear subtle differences when testing designs. You know that I use advanced NEARs which are very revealing to changes upstream. I would never been able to accomlish what I did without the assistance of NEAR and FT Audio.

It was a great reference system which I need to rebuild for reference 2ch. I will use the Panny for HT.

Just thinking!

[cjr888]

I am using my OTA at the moment,but I like my Ag spirals the best and Ag is said not to work with the digi amps,but mine does a good job.

People's complaints being?  Too thin?  Too revealing?