[Good Times]

Matt, your experience with the Zus are about what I'd expect with that type of speaker paired with zero feedback SET amp... not a great amp/speaker pairing. You would have been much better off with a more powerful push pull tube amp or even a SS amp with a higher damping factor. But even with an amp that matched them better they still sound like PA speakers... good PA speakers but they have that kind of sound which isn't my preference. They can play loud though.

I'd have to respectfully disagree Dave, the Zus get better as the damping factor gets lower. They have a very strong (probably too strong) motor and hence sound lean with solid state. You effectively need a 'loose' (low damping factor) amp to compensate for this and fill the bass out. I found the best for Omen Standards was a 300B SET amp (~8w).

[Mattyboy]

Thanks guys for all the input here...its appreciated.

When I had the ZU standard Omen with either my Almarro 318b or Avondale M130's they were just plain awful..build quality on the cabinets also awful (not standard of finish though) and subsequently felt light wieght and flimsy and of course made them very resonant which didn't help the already very coloured sound..the comment referencing PA speakers 'sound quality' as a comparison is justified and I concur.

Saturday is fast approaching and then the decware will be mine... all mine...the vandee's i have by the way are 90db with a flat frequency response and a lowest impedance dip of 4.8 ohms somewhere in the bass frequency area..cant remember exactly..so they could be OK....Ive been using them for around 4 years so I must like them and against the Zu Omen they sound absolutingly stonkingly Amazeballs!!!!



Omega speaker contenders then are primarily those that have the new 7 driver in and have decent cubic volume and thus good levels of bass but without losing the focus, clarity and imaging of the 5 drivers..7XRS looks like its ticking a lot of boxes!

[Mattyboy]

Matt, your experience with the Zus are about what I'd expect with that type of speaker paired with zero feedback SET amp... not a great amp/speaker pairing. You would have been much better off with a more powerful push pull tube amp or even a SS amp with a higher damping factor. But even with an amp that matched them better they still sound like PA speakers... good PA speakers but they have that kind of sound which isn't my preference. They can play loud though.

The Omegas sound VERY different from Zu and pair perfectly with the amp you are buying. I also have an EL34 SET with an Aikido 6SN7 preamp driving them directly... the combo of EL34 SET and Omega is magical... it is not only a good value, it sounds great compared to any system out there regardless of price if the compromises match your listening preferences. If you want to play symphony or heavy rock in a large room at concert level volumes then you will be disappointed but in a smaller room, especially nearfield and at more moderate volumes, they perform at a level very few systems can match.

For the amp, check out the Gold Lion KT77 reissues, they are great tubes. And don't skimp on the source or cables, they all make a huge difference and there seems to be no limit to how good the Omegas sound when you upgrade the rest of the system.

@Louis, I want the 7 XRS!   

Hi Dave , All the valves supplied with the amp look real good, the seller has also offered a pair of KT88's but im not sure if I want them or not. What about the benefits of the hazen grid mod? it will as I understand it only work in conjunction with the EL34's right?..so I would assume then that it wont apply to the Golden lion KT77 that you mention as being worth trying either.

Cheers Matt

Quote I want the 7XRS!...yep me too!

[JLM]

Saturday is fast approaching and then the decware will be mine... all mine...the vandee's i have by the way are 90db with a flat frequency response and a lowest impedance dip of 4.8 ohms somewhere in the bass frequency area..cant remember exactly..so they could be OK....Ive been using them for around 4 years so I must like them and against the Zu Omen they sound absolutingly stonkingly Amazeballs!!!!

Vandy's (should work better than most 'conventional' speakers as they are designed to be a benign amp load and have 1st order crossovers.  As I mentioned above, my 90 dB/w/m, 8 ohm, 30 - 20,000 Hz speakers did OK volume wise, but the bass was solid but exagerated.

[Mattyboy]

OK so I have the Decware SE34I.2+ all set up and its an hour or so in...........

Basically it is woefully under powered and gets nowhere near. I remember how the Almarro with 15 w class A drove the vandy's which wasn't quite enough for me which lead me to tring the Zu Omen with the claim of high effeciency drivers!!...which were plain horrible sounding. The decware sound quality wise from what I can tell from the low volume is ......well just so so really 

What to do?

[Good Times]

What speakers at the moment Matty?

[JLM]

Beg or borrow more efficient speakers to make sure the amp is working properly.  Seems like you're into the synergy (proper/improper equipment matching) game big time.  Analogy:  You could have the best 1.8L engine in the world, but it won't show itself off trying to pull a fully loaded 18 wheel semi-truck/trailer.  I thought the Vandy's might work OK at low volumes, but evidently they're sucking up too much power.

Remember that wattage has a logarithmic relationship to dBs (how loud we hear).  Every 3 dB increase seems half again louder but takes twice the power and every 10 dB seems twice as loud, but takes 10 times the power.  Realize that most live music peaks between 105 and 110 dB, but the peaks can vary greatly.  Typically (using vast generalizations here) rock has 5 dB peaks, jazz 15 dB, and classical 30 dB.  Here's a quick table to compare watts with gain:

0.01 w =  -20 dB of gain
0.1 w   =  -10 dB
1 w      =   O dB (by definition from how speaker efficiencies are rated)
2 w      =   3 dB
5 w      =   7 dB
8 w      =   8 dB
10 w    =  10 dB
13 w    =  11 dB
16 w   =  12 dB
20 w   =  13 dB
50 w   =  17 dB
80 w   =  18 dB

So you can see that in the extreme case (classical music) average realistic listening levels are about 75 dB (comfortable to still carry on a conversation), but need 1,000 times the power to handle the peaks.  With your Vandy's it takes about 0.04 watts to reach 75 dB, but 40 watts to reach the realistic peaks (and some would argue that actual/instantaneous peaks are 130 dB that would require 10,000 watts for the Vandy's!).  That's what the simply math says, however if you go back to the small engine/big load analogy above it's even worse in the real world where big vehicles simply tend to have poor acceleration due to their mass and the basic effects of momentum.  And music is all about peaks and acceleration.  Fortunately for small tube amp owners, tubes tend to overload very gracefully, so they can "get around" these peak power demands with use of higher efficiency speakers being the other half of the solution. 

But in life there's always a catch (or two).  Deep bass takes lots of energy, so high efficiency speakers (like Omega designs) tend to not even try to reach say 20 - 50 Hz (without adding a subwoofer).  I tried to join the SET scene for years (being fascinated with how the small/simple design could work), but finally gave up because: 1.) I believe bass is essential, even foundational and wanted the full frequency spectrum to come from one point; 2.) Nearly all high efficiency speaker designs were colored (midrange honk, cabinet noise from insufficiently braced large cabinets, etc.); and 3.) The designs that tried to do bass were uniformly huge (plus expensive) and tried to offset bloated tube bass with the still weak speaker bass capabilities (complementing each others' distortions).

That's where Louis' approach makes so much sense: superior drivers (where can a 'poor' driver hide in a single driver design?); attention to cabinet building; and leaving deep bass to the subwoofers.

[Guy 13]

Hi JLM and all Audio Circle members.
Interesting and informative post,
I've learned something new from you.
Thanks.
This evening, I will go to bed less stupid ! 

Guy 13

[Louis O]

Hi G Georgopoulos,

Thanks for the compliments and I use a 5 year old Nikon D40. It wasn't too expensive and I should take a class to learn the manual modes.

Thanks,
Louis

[Louis O]

Hi beowulf,

Many thanks for your post and great to hear that you have the speakers burned in already. I listen to my set and sounds like a bigger more dynamic super 3 XRS. The soundstage is all there and the attack is super fast. The really let go of the notes and have that pace and rhythm down. Bass is strong and not bloated at all and I have them pretty far from the wall behind them. Have been using solid state too and no worry at all.

Thanks again,
Louis

[Louis O]

Hi Mattyboy,

You might want to try them out. You never know they could work.

Many thanks JLM for the compliments and more coming with built in subs. Doing something a little different right now. I will say that it will look like a Super 3 XRS and only 1 inch added in the depth. The system will be sealed box and have a bass driver to boot. It's getting very interesting.

Also I have a picture of a pro style 12" and this is just a prototype. Still working on it and I maybe able to make it high Q for OB.

[JLM]

Was into photography 30 years ago (mostly shooting road races).  In your case, I'd try reducing exposure (shut down the aperture or increase shutter speed) and play with the lighting (position and warmer/more reddish light).  Your photos look more like police mug shots (accurate) than inviting, home like attractions.  The nature/feel of the photos should reflect you, your values, and what you want from the speakers themselves.  Photographers are starving artists, everyone wants to be one, so you should be able to find one cheap enough (maybe swap service for a pair of speakers) to shoot in a variety of settings the speakers, finishes, tour of the work shop/staff, and especially you!

After all, this isn't just the prom, it's your business, so invest a bit in a good one that's local (to stay consistent with all those future products too). 

BTW fall is an excellent time to shoot outdoors, daylight is still strong and warm but not harsh, temperatures are invigorating, lots of great color in New England, skin has still got a bit of summer color left, and even the clothing is inviting.

[Louis O]

Hi Mattyboy,

Sorry about misreading your post and just re-read about the Vandy/ Decware combo. Sorry to hear that it's not working out.

It is possible to also have built in subs with the RS7's if you are looking for deeper bass as well.

Thanks,
Louis

[Louis O]

Hi JLM,

Many thanks for the tips and I'm looking into taking a class in using my camera. The camera store offers them. Thanks for the tips and taking the pictures outside would make a huge difference. The natural light is much better. I have gone to the pros and they are pricy.

Thanks,
Louis

[JLM]

I'd blame pricey photographers on being near NYC.  Around here everyone thinks they want to be one, so they come pretty cheap.

[Louis O]

Hi JLM,

You're right and everthing is pricey around here.


Thanks,
Louis

[bprice2]

Still working on it and I maybe able to make it high Q for OB.

I would be very interested in this. 

[Canada Rob]

OK so I have the Decware SE34I.2+ all set up and its an hour or so in...........

Basically it is woefully under powered and gets nowhere near. I remember how the Almarro with 15 w class A drove the vandy's which wasn't quite enough for me which lead me to tring the Zu Omen with the claim of high effeciency drivers!!...which were plain horrible sounding. The decware sound quality wise from what I can tell from the low volume is ......well just so so really 

What to do?

Mattyboy,

I have never heard  the Vandersteens, but I have been told they have a laid back sound which is not necessarily bad, but couple that with 90db efficiency, a crossover, only six watts, EL34's, and yes, it may sound lackluster.  The Vandersteens may also be an unfriendly load for the Decware too.
When I recommended the Decware it was with the hope you would pair it up with some Omegas.  I also question efficiency ratings when a crossover is involved, because a crossover can suck up a lot of power, and in some cases making life very difficult for flea powered amps like your Decware.  The Omegas are truly real world efficient, have no crossover (or anything in the signal path), and have benign impedance curves making them very amp friendly.  In my humble opinion, flea powered amps should never have to deal with a crossover, except on some very rare occasions.

Also, the difference in power between the 6W Decware and the 15W Almarro is huge.  Don't look at the power difference between the amps as only 9W, but look at the Almarro as almost three times more powerful.  With Omega speakers, that power difference will not seem nearly as profound as with the far less efficient Vandersteens.  Don't dump your Decware until you hear it on some Omegas.

[Guy 13]

Hi Mattyboy and all Audio Circle members.
I have a Decware SE84C+ - 2wpc driving Audio Nirvana 95db
without any problem.
I think you should keep your Decware and buy the Omega.
My advice.

Guy 13

[Mattyboy]

Ok folks...thanks for all your comments re the omega's and the Decware..I will try to keep hold of it and try it with some high effecientcy speakers here in the Uk first before I take a plunge in the sea of O ...remember I got stung this way with a pair of Zu Omen...catch ca laters amigo's