[dB Cooper]

http://www.techhive.com/article/2048085/why-high-resolution-audio-is-an-industry-pipe-dream.html

[Tyson]

OMG, the masses cannot tell the difference between Napoleon cognac and generic brandy!!!!!  Well, I guess that means there will never be a market for high end cognac. 

Idiotic article.

[ted_b]

I ask when you start a whole new thread to provide some perspective or opinion or take on a hirez issue, not just post a link.  Please add your own thoughts. 

[Geardaddy]

The gist of that article is correct.  A Grammy winning recording engineer came over to hear my room a few months back, and we honestly spent more time talking about this very issue.  He said the boom and sizzle pays the bills.  Hi rez is a niche market and will always be that way.  It does not have the same universal appeal of video.  What's even more depressing is the state of hi end audio.  Just look at our demographics....aging dudes between the ages of 45-70.  Go to any show and that reality is staring back at you.

[strat95]

I feel the comments to the article are more discouraging than the article itself.

One excerpt from a comment:

"There's simply no such thing as a Beatles HD audio file."

This person clearly has no understanding of the fidelity of analog master tape and how to extract that with higher resolution sampling!!

I also keep hearing the argument that human hearing is limited to the range of 20Hz to 20kHz.  Maybe human hearing is limited but the body certainly reacts to ultra low frequencies, demonstrated often by people at car audio shows that throw up due to all the low frequency high SPL music being blasted.  So if that is true on the low end of the sound spectrum, can it be true for the high end of the spectrum?

A quick search led me to this wikipedia page calling the phenomenon the Hypersonic Effect.  It sounds like studies have shown contradictions but it is an interesting read none the less.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_effect

TV


 

[jcotner]

I mean well hasn't it always been a niche market.
Remember well my friend with a lot of money buying
901s, Pioneer Spec, and B&O turntable.
Lot's of money in Mobile Fidelity discs.
That was all in the mid 70s.
I (my dad) spent a lot of money buying me
a Quad System. Big niche there.
I don't know that demographics has changed as
much as disposable income. A lot of 20 and 30 somethings
now expect to pay nothing for music, so it's even harder
to make a case for HiDef music at a premium.
Bleeding edge audio will always have fans, but the young
fans aren't entering as fast as the old fans are leaving.

[ted_b]

The gist of that article is correct.  A Grammy winning recording engineer came over to hear my room a few months back, and we honestly spent more time talking about this very issue.  He said the boom and sizzle pays the bills.  Hi rez is a niche market and will always be that way.  It does not have the same universal appeal of video.  What's even more depressing is the state of hi end audio.  Just look at our demographics....aging dudes between the ages of 45-70.  Go to any show and that reality is staring back at you.

Just because the masses aren't buying it doesn't mean that it's not worthwhile.  In fact, I think sometimes the exact opposite.  The masses buy Justin Bieber and Beyonce.  I know of no one that has ever though the hirez market would grow beyond niche.  So what?

[Esimms86]

I agree that the (unmoderated?) comment section is rife with misinformation.

The hi res market, however, does start with a largely middle age or older demographic purchasing, perhaps for the 3rd or 4th time, physical or download versions of recordings that they first listened to in their youth. It's a win-win for the recording industry (hopefully, including the artists) who benefit from having a renewed opportunity to sell music whose sales heyday had passed years ago. I see no problem with any of this as I happily go about buying and enjoying my 3rd copy of CTTE.


The hat trick, of course, is getting younger listeners interested in hi res so that the hi res market, however niche, can be sustainable for the future.

It is my view that music recording listening has changed from being a larger "in the room" and often communal experience to becoming a more solitary earbud or headphone experience. For this, an iPod or smartphone, an untold number of mp3's and, perhaps, an iPod dock are often more than sufficient. The younger listener who wants a larger experience often steps up from there by purchasing Beats headphones, a product, in my view, which carries far overwhelmingly more social cache (as in cool to be seen wearing) than audio quality. I can't see anyone on this forum or over at headfi disagreeing with my last statement.

My hope and belief, however, is that this represents the best opportunity for hi res. Take the average 20 something college grad with a laptop that he or she had to purchase for college. Give them a chance to listen to lossless files through a plug in USB DAC like the Audioquest Dragonfly, the Meridian Explorer or the upcoming Geek paired with a good set of headphones. Playback their favorite music as even a 16/44.1 CD rip(likely the highest quality format available at this time for newly released music) and also some of the retro music that many young people happen to also love (like Pink Floyd, for instance) in hi res and watch they begin to come around as they finally "get" what hi res is all about. So now, for 250 to 299 USD for the DAC plus 300 USD for a much better set of headphones(the same price point that they had previously met when buying their Beats), they can have (with their already owned laptop) an audiophile music setup for their own enjoyment. It's portable so they can share it with their friends, converting them one listener at a time. No, not everyone will become a convert but that's okay so long as a small but promising percentage of them "get it."

Esau

[Geardaddy]

Just because the masses aren't buying it doesn't mean that it's not worthwhile.  In fact, I think sometimes the exact opposite.  The masses buy Justin Bieber and Beyonce.  I know of no one that has ever though the hirez market would grow beyond niche.  So what?

Its not a matter of being a niche or not.  That is obvious.  It is a matter of long term viability and thus the use of the term "pipe dream" in the article.  Its hardly a sustainable scenario when 0.5% of music listeners are your market and an aging one at that. 

I am 45 and certain that most responders on this thread are that age or older.  We need an audio revival to recruit young blood!  I very much like Michael Fremer's idea of setting up a high end system and selling tickets to the performance. 

[kingdeezie]

The comment section of that article is enough to make me sad that I have chosen to become so engrossed in this hobby. It is clearly evident that most people do not care to hear the differences between formats and equipment, and are completely uneducated about how music should sound. 

One guy posted something like, "I'm just thankful that anything I download off of Itunes today, sounds way better then the thousand of records I had before."

 

If you think that MP3's sound better then a decently setup vinyl rig, what hope is there that you will appreciate HD audio? Zero.

Sadly, most people just don't know, nor care to know, about these things. The other day I was at a flea market, checking out the used vinyl shop. This young couple walks by, and starts lamenting that they should have "never stopped making records." 

I'm 30 years old. I am not optimistic that in another 30 years I'll still have access to the things about this hobby that I enjoy so much, I often think it will have long died out and faded away.

[tortugaranger]

What I find ironic...and cling to as a source of hope...is there is more music than ever that is more available than ever being heard by more people than ever in more ways than ever. While the masses will never become audiophiles a percentage of a growing music audience will gravitate towards higher quality audio in their lifetimes. Meanwhile an argument can be made that the high end audio biz, taken as a whole, sucks big time in appealing to and marketing to the 20 & 30 somethings. Take any audio show. Where are the outreach campaigns? It'll never be like the 70s and 80s again but I believe "personal  audio" which means PCs and MACs and DACs oh my is a very real potential pathway for bringing new blood into high quality audio. But it won't be your dad's Oldsmobile they'll be driving. 

[firedog]

hi-res audio is a niche market b/c as in lots of other instances, the industry doesn't have a clue.

Younger people are interested in portable devices, but that doesn't mean they don't care about good sound. Noticed the amount of upscale headphones being sold today and worn around by younger people?

Those same people could be interested in hi-res files and quality music sources. If they are already interested enough to buy upscale 'phones they will be able to hear and appreciate the sound of quality source files....and any youngster seriously interested in the sound of vinyl will also be able to appreciate hi-res.

The industry needs to give them good, relatively affordable portable players with enough memory so a hi-res library of decent size can be loaded onto it. They will pay a premium for this, but to expect them to buy $2000 devices that go on a shelf IS a pipedream.

[JLM]

HD is not accessible, mostly due to lack of money to support proper listening environment and speakers.  Huge speakers in dedicated rooms just isn't in the cards for most (unless you're one of the fortunate few 45 - 70 demographic mentioned above).  That generation (my generation) grew up with stereo as the only techno-cool gig available for nerds (other than ham radio) and now a few of us are able and interested in assembling good systems. 

But typical 20/30 somethings don't have the money/space and frankly don't know what 'real' (live/unamplified) music sounds like.  Besides they're after convenience and instant gratification.  The economic/demographic realities dictate they will live in smaller budgets/houses for the foreseeable future.  But we have immense technologic resources available to blend HD into these limitations.

Equipment designers really need to work on merging 'life-style' with quality.  Wireless gear to work off their smartphone/laptop (the new BlueTooth standard is not HD but a good step in this direction).  Small 2-way powered/active speakers (for home enjoyment, not dry/nit-picking studio monitors) would be a very important step.  The KEF X300A is a good example: small, affordable, active design, placement flexible, includes a DAC (just add a wireless connection).  Better (and more costly) examples of all-in-one speakers exist (Quad 9AS, AVi 9RSS).  The Vanatoo Transparent One is a 'lesser' example but importantly less expensive.  Amphion is an excellent example of crossing the lines between studio, life-style, and up-scale home audio with their small 2-way passive speakers. 

Are these world beating technologies?  No, not quite, not today.  But it is the direction I believe the industry needs to move in and gives the 'outsiders' stepping stones to make the journey.  Unfortunately the past has indicated that this market is extremely slow to embrace this kind of 'compromise'. 

[Freo-1]

There will always be a market for high end audio, and hi resolution recordings.  Take a quick look at the amount of classical music available on SACD, and one quickly sees that there is a fair amount of media available.  The difference is noticeable between SACD and CD on these recordings.  Listen to SACD on something like Stax headphones, and becomes VERY obvious.  Sadly, it is pretty apparent that most popular music does not pay much attention to sound quality.  Why should they?  The target audience could care less.
Agree with the observation that it will never be like it was during the golden age.  Back then, something along the lines of a Pioneer SX-1250 receiver provided true high end performance in that era, and it was sold to a much broader market than a similar product today.  Can you imagine how much it would cost to make something of that quality today?    

[Geardaddy]

There will always be a market for high end audio, and hi resolution recordings.  Take a quick look at the amount of classical music available on SACD, and one quickly sees that there is a fair amount of media available. 

Sony did dump the format.  I know it is being resurrected in the name of archiving downloads for profit due to the DSD hype, but its no longer an industry standard.  Furthermore, how many 20 and 30 somethings do you know grooving on SACD classical recordings?

[Geardaddy]

HD is not accessible, mostly due to lack of money to support proper listening environment and speakers.  Huge speakers in dedicated rooms just isn't in the cards for most (unless you're one of the fortunate few 45 - 70 demographic mentioned above).  That generation (my generation) grew up with stereo as the only techno-cool gig available for nerds (other than ham radio) and now a few of us are able and interested in assembling good systems. 

But typical 20/30 somethings don't have the money/space and frankly don't know what 'real' (live/unamplified) music sounds like.  Besides they're after convenience and instant gratification.  The economic/demographic realities dictate they will live in smaller budgets/houses for the foreseeable future.  But we have immense technologic resources available to blend HD into these limitations.

Equipment designers really need to work on merging 'life-style' with quality.  Wireless gear to work off their smartphone/laptop (the new BlueTooth standard is not HD but a good step in this direction).  Small 2-way powered/active speakers (for home enjoyment, not dry/nit-picking studio monitors) would be a very important step.  The KEF X300A is a good example: small, affordable, active design, placement flexible, includes a DAC (just add a wireless connection).  Better (and more costly) examples of all-in-one speakers exist (Quad 9AS, AVi 9RSS).  The Vanatoo Transparent One is a 'lesser' example but importantly less expensive.  Amphion is an excellent example of crossing the lines between studio, life-style, and up-scale home audio with their small 2-way passive speakers. 

Are these world beating technologies?  No, not quite, not today.  But it is the direction I believe the industry needs to move in and gives the 'outsiders' stepping stones to make the journey.  Unfortunately the past has indicated that this market is extremely slow to embrace this kind of 'compromise'.

Well said.  Technology can and may save the day.  You definitely see lifestyle pieces starting to bubble up in the hi end from Wadia, Peacthtree, etc.  I bought and reviewed a wireless front end on Audiogon in 07.  Part of the power behind my Zardoz was simply the stunning ease of use, being able to flip through an entire music library on an Ipad.  At the time, people pissed all over me.  They did not see the writing on the wall....

[Freo-1]

Some of the young people who study music are listening to classical music.  I've been pleasantly surprised whenever I attend a symphony the amount of younger people that are also in attendance.

If you do a online search, you will find that there are thousands of SACD titles available.  You may also be surprised to find there are a lot of new classical performances released on the SACD format.   The market is small, but it's there, just like the high end audio market (small, but not zero).  The high end market still will purchase re-issued music on SACD.
 
 

[HAITIMAN]

When I decided in 2009 to go the digital audio route, buy a squeezebox touch, a vacuum tube amplifier, and rip my cd's to FLAC, I thought that young people in their teens and 20's would be very interested in my system. I was wrong. My nephews had no clue what the FLAC format was. When I unpacked my Cronus Magnum in front of them, they asked, "what is that?". A friend of theirs, (20ish, a good drummer, into music), was over at the house and I demoed my system. He was uninterested in how I transmitted my hires files wirelessly from the computer to the ST. He seemed to fake knowing about "hires", and commented that he couldn't wait for the "new 1080 files to come out". Utterly clueless! And these guys are in to music....play instruments....and are  "cool".
So, there you go. It's a hard sell....and I guess we will have to wait for them to "discover" the audiophile experience one day, for themselves. But at 14 years old, back in the mid 70's, my friends and I were all over the audio thing. I saved my money from my busboy job and bought an ADC turntable when I was 16...and then it was an Alpine cassette deck.....

[ted_b]

I think we are discussing (arguing? debating?) two issues here:
1) is hirez legit?  Yes, absolutely, but you need to know what to look for.  As Tyson so eloquently put it, don't look to the masses for its relevance or acceptance.
2) will hirez (audio, let alone recordings) sustain.  I doubt it.  There are no brick and mortars for us to take our children to go here cool stuff, and our own main rig hi-fi systems are of no interest to our kids.  Back in the day we had little choice but to crowd around the ONE tv in the house, or listen to "dad's stereo".  Now our kids have the entire universe of theirs to listen to portable music, portable video, portable social networking, etc.    Net/net, there is no farm system anymore.

[tortugaranger]

My own experience suggests this may be more nuanced than a simple matter of "no interest". I have 2 daughters - mid 20's and early 30's. They grew up in a house full of music with dad's stereo wrapped around the TV and more often than not tied into the TV itself - HiFi TV if you like.

Today they are both HUGE  fans of all kinds of music from classical to classic rock to EDM and everything in between. Both of them desperately want a cool high end HiFi rig and I believe they eventually will get one.  Meanwhile they "struggle" along with iPhones and laptops tied into cheapo ear buds and speakers. My point is they know what high end HiFi sounds like. They drool at my rig at home every time the visit. But they can get by for now with far less than a classic hi-fi rig. I'm quite certain that once their earnings go up and they can afford more luxury goods, they'll end up with something nice. But it won't be $10k+ nice or even $5k+ nice. But nice.

When I think back on it my early stereo rigs were total junk cobbled together anyway I could mange and then I kept working on upgrades over the years. I don't see my daughters doing it much differently only their "junk" is iPhones and laptops that serve multiple purposes beyond just music. Sure, the urgency isn't there. It's not big-rig-stereo or nothing. And those 20 & 30 somethings have another 50 years to get on board. I believe enough will. Not like we did. But many will. 

  There are no brick and mortars for us to take our children to go here cool stuff, and our own main rig hi-fi systems are of no interest to our kids.  Back in the day we had little choice but to crowd around the ONE tv in the house, or listen to "dad's stereo".  Now our kids have the entire universe of theirs to listen to portable music, portable video, portable social networking, etc.    Net/net, there is no farm system anymore.