Alpha's and RM40's at Gerry's (Turk)

zybar · « **Reply #20 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 08:59 pm »

Quote from: Turk

Zybar,

Well, if I am lucky, in about 8months I will leave this nice home with a perfect listening room that is forever off limits as dictated by you-know-who, to find a home with a dedicted listening room that you-know-who will be happy to turn me loose in with my gear. As for the traps, I have 8 Minitraps from Realtraps and 4 Jon Risch diy 18" diameter by 48" tall corner traps. I also have 3-2" thick by 5'' tall by 3' wide acoustical panels and 4 Microtraps by Realtraps. Pathetic isn't it?

I love Ethan's products and he has been over at my house a few times.

I have 7 Minitraps in my room and this has really done the trick for me. I also have some 4" acoustical foam.

From this pic, you can see that I have a pretty treated front end of the room (4 MiniTraps, Acoustic Foam, 8th Nerve seams and corners):

I also have MiniTraps at the sides of the room up at the wall ceiling juncture:

What makes your room so difficult on bass?

George

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #21 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 09:33 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

Both of them seem to only "wake up" when you turn the volume up a bit. The 40's specifically sound a little veiled at low volume (mids and highs don't sparkle quite like they can)

I agree. Hearing George's speakers for the first time at the last Rave, at lower volume...sounds polite.....but turn them up and they come alive !! Well, their big speakers !!

Turk · « **Reply #22 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 09:40 pm »

George,

Damn physics is what makes my room suck! Really...low ceiling, double sheetrock, I-beams and ductwork, it's in the basment By the way, I changed the tubes in the Denon and some of the ssssssssibilance is reduced.

Poor baby, I hope Tyson doesn't suffer any permanent damage to those precious ears.

Of course, I have heard the 40's at Tysons when MikeG. and I took shelter in the other room until they broke out the Bybees for the speaker cables and and dialed the pots waaaaay back.

Tyson · « **Reply #23 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 09:53 pm »

Yep, that's what happens when she-who-must-be-obeyed allows the 40's in the main living room, but doesn't allow any room treatments at all

And my system still has a way to go, particular the AVA gear is in need of hotrodding, so my sound is far from perfect

Some people don't mind sibilance, and they probably think I'm smoking crack, but it's just one of those things that drives me batty. I'm not trying to sandbag the Alpha's, they do some things extremely well, and for someone else they are probably a great speaker, but they just aren't my cup of tea.

I think Wayne and Mike took some pics, didn't they? I wonder what the heck happened to them?

Tyson · « **Reply #24 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 10:20 pm »

Also, I want to retract my statement about the Alpha's bass extenstion, because I don't believe we ever heard them with the sub off. So I can't say at all how they sounded on their own. They did integrate with the sub very well after the sub was dialed down a couple of clicks.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #25 on:** 25 Jul 2004, 11:15 pm »

Here is a shot of The Horn Shoppe Horns hooked up with the KKSV-2 speaker cable. I thought the Horns were the most over achieving speaker we listened to yesterday. They sounded very good at low levels and they could PLAY LOUD!!!

It might have helped having them hooked up to the JC-1s with speaker cable that would sell for 10 times the cost of the speakers

You can see the Alphas next to the Horns and the RM-40s with their back to the proceedings

Now it is the 40's turn to play and the Alphas have turned their back to the audience

Here is the frequency responce I took of the Alphas from the listening position in Jerry's room. This was measured at 1/24th octave using pink noise.

ekovalsky · « **Reply #26 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 12:19 am »

Quote from: Wayne1

Here is the frequency responce I took of the Alphas from the listening position in Jerry's room. This was measured at 1/24th octave using pink noise.

Wayne, did you get data on the RM-40's also?

Looks like Tyson's hearing is spot on. The sawtooth pattern from 200hz and below isn't surprising and may be in large part from the room, but I'm surprised the response above 200hz isn't more even.

zybar · « **Reply #27 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 12:31 am »

Wayne,

Do you like TrueRTA software?

I have the ETF software, but find it a little difficult to use.

George

Wayne1 · « **Reply #28 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 01:36 am »

George,

I have tried both the ETF and TrueRTA. I bought TrueRTA

ETF is VERY user unfriendly. TrueRTA is not as powerful, but it does exactly what I want and is very simple to use. I use a Behringer ECM-8000 mike, which TrueRTA has an EQ file for, and a M-Audio DMP3 mike pre-amp. I use a Creative Labs Audigy2 USB sound card with the laptop.

Here is a reading for the RM-40s. This was made before any adjustments were made to any of the controls. I did not have time to make another reading after Tyson finished adjusting them. As you can see from this graph, the tweeters could be turned up a bit.

Here is a graph of the Horn Shoppe Horns

Quote

but I'm surprised the response above 200hz isn't more even.

This is raw 1/24 octave data. If you just looked at the graph with 1 octave resolution it would look far smoother.

Here is the same reading of the Horn Shoppe Horns in 1 octave

That looks more like the graphs manufacturers publish, doesn't it

mgalusha · « **Reply #29 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 01:59 am »

OK, more pictures.

Front row, left to right: Tyson's friend Steve, Tyson
Middle row, left to right: Sean (sunshinedwag), Brad (brab b), Gary (gme109), Pete (pete g)
Back row, l > r: Jerry (Turk), Wayne

Bottom to top: Monster balanced power supply (modded by BOLDER Cables), Hagerman Cornet phono stage, deHavilland UltraVerve preamp, Exemplar Audio modded Denon 2900 CD/SACD/DVD-A player, Eurolab TT with M0rch arm and Scheu modded Benz Glider.

Parasound JC-1's, Rotel for the sub, VMPS Larger Sub, Marchand XM-44 XO. Note the Marchand is only providing low pass for the sub. The main speakers were being run full range.

The Hornshoppe Horn. What am amazing little speaker. I really liked these little guys. The sound of voices and piano was excellent. The bass was much better than I would have expected and even integrated with the sub fairly well. As Wayne mentioned, they will play loud. Unfortunately I made them (and everyone in the room) suffer by putting in some Albert Collins and cranking it up. Reproducing his Telecaster at high volumes is something many speakers can't do well and it was painful with the little horns. But at more reasonable volumes these suckers were very nice. This picture shows the over kill... A $700/pair speaker connected to a $10K cable.

I don't have a huge amount to add to what has already been said. Jerry's room is a tough environment. I think the Alphas would benefit from a higher ceiling. Yesterday was the first time I've done any serious listening to the RM-40's in that room. Direct comparison between the speakers made the differences quite clear. There are things about each that I like and I believe the Alphas can do better than they did. I know for sure the RM-40s can as I've listened to both Jerry's and Tyson's extensively.

I can say that the electronics were not to blame. I had the opportunity to have both the Exemplar modded Denon and the deHavilland in my system for some weeks while Jerry was moving and both are very very good. As good as the Denon is however it pales when compared to the Analog rig. I put on the 45rpm single sided pressing of Billie Holiday and all conversation in the room pretty much just stopped.

The raw emotion of her performance was conveyed without any filters. What a life of pain she must have had. The big tenor sax was just there and as someone mentioned "the sax actually sounds like a sax". A simple statement but it was almost in the room with us.

Mike

_scotty_ · « **Reply #30 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 04:05 am »

Excellent work,thanks for your report and accompanying graphs they were very informative and much appreciated. I can almost taste the BBQ.
Please publish any relevant BBQ sauce recipes you can share without violating OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT. Once again well done. Scotty

gme109 · « **Reply #31 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 04:29 am »

Quote from: Tyson

The 40's sounded smoother in the treble, the Alpha's sounded smoother in the bass (that's how they measured too). The room was heavily treated, plus we were using a tubed output CD player, a tubed preamp, and a pair of Parasound JC-1 monoblocks. If the Alpha's did not sound smooth in the mids and treble, it is certainly not because of the room or upstream equipment. ...

Hi Tyson,

I think your comments were spot on and I agree with your assessment of both speakers in Turk's room. I would like to add one thing in regards to the sibilance we heard from the Alpha's and your comment on the room being heavily treated. Having lived with a linearray in two different rooms I've found a few things to hold true. A linearray as we heard with the Alpha's has the ability to load the room much more evenly in the bass then a point source speaker. I have found however that the mid range and treble in a linearray has the potential to interact much more with a room then a point source, especially in a basement where the ceilings are lower. Although Turk's room seemed to be heavily treated, I saw many problem areas that could have contributed to the sibilance we were all hearing from the Alpha's. I thought my new room was a nightmare but Turk's room takes the cake! With all the soffits and additional corners that that creates, this room needed a lot more treatment. High frequencies travel along the seems were walls and ceiling meet and then converge in the corners were they are amplified. My guess is the sibilance we were hearing was do to the hellish room they were in.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #32 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 06:55 am »

Mike and Wayne, thanks for the photo's !!

Turk · « **Reply #33 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 02:55 pm »

OK, the For Sale Sign is going up. It's still cheaper to stay married and buy a new home, I'm a pragmatist.

Great, I have a listening session and and the conclusion, correct as I may add, requires moving or purchasing a pair of $700 horns to go with $25k in electronics and cables. Gee did I have fun.

Of course, Wayne is still snickering about the response curve with the horns, as well he should, they were terrific.

I think the participants all did a very good job o f describing what they heard. Gary and Mike made the best observation regarding cause and effect--both speakers were in a poor environment except, of course, the horns that thrived. Gary's comparison of point source vs. line array makes good sense.

I listened last night to Margo Timmins and indeed there is more hiss than I remember in her voice (don't rub it in, Tyson

). I then put in the 40's and they were indeed smoother ,but the bass was not as good as it was in my other home. Then, putting in the Alphas I found the bass improved, but the upper midrange with added emphasis was not right.

Lessons to be learned: A bad room can make $700 speakers that don't interact with it sound better than $6k speakers that load it in one way or another. There may be no limit to room treatments in a poor room. Speaker placement is a science never to be underestimated. DAM members have great ears, myself excluded, but they don't eat or drink much IMHO(see above picture of me vs. them) so I bought too much food and drink.

Last but not least, the VMPS, GR Research shootout will have another chapter either in a new home or when she who must be obeyed gets a trip
to Europe.

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #34 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 02:58 pm »

I own the RM40 and had the opportunity to listen to the Alpha at Gary Dodd's (Dodd Audio).

I did not hear any hint of "sibilance" from the Alpha system. So, I'm wondering whether it was room related. Remember that the RM40 can be tuned to adjust for room anomalies (to some extent). Could this be the case?

Tyson · « **Reply #35 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 03:28 pm »

Yes, it could certainly be a room problem. I don't anything will help with the roll off above 12 khz, but the peak at 3 khz and the peak at 10khz could both be room problems, and if so, then I'd love to give them another listen after the room is more heavily treated. Who says us audiophiles aren't crazy? After all we spend a lot of time in padded rooms

Rick Craig · « **Reply #36 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 04:12 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

Yes, it could certainly be a room problem. I don't anything will help with the roll off above 12 khz, but the peak at 3 khz and the peak at 10khz could both be room problems, and if so, then I'd love to give them another listen after the room is more heavily treated. Who says us audiophiles aren't crazy? After all we spend a lot of time in padded rooms

If there was a problem with the room @10K it would've also shown up in the curve for the RM-40. especially since the RM40's ribbon has much wider horizontal dispersion than the Neo8.

ctviggen · « **Reply #37 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 04:28 pm »

That brings up a good point about the graphs show. To me, they show me nothing. I would think that if a problem were a room problem, it would show as a peak or a low at the same point for all three speakers. But finding trends in the three graphs seems very hard to do. Were the RM40s really producing bass at 10Hz? Can anyone decipher these to say what the room modes were? Would a problem in the room show up in all three curves?

gme109 · « **Reply #38 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 04:30 pm »

Rick: "If there was a problem with the room @10K it would've also shown up in the curve for the RM-40. especially since the RM40's ribbon has much wider horizontal dispersion than the Neo8."

Hi Rick,

I'm not sure what the vertical dispersion of the Alpha's tweeters are like but if they have any vertical dispersion what so ever, would they not interact with the ceiling more then the RM-40's? Being that there's more tweeters and they're closer to the ceiling.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #39 on:** 26 Jul 2004, 04:57 pm »

The reading of all three speakers were done fairly quickly before everyone else showed up.

The 40s were set up and playing when I got there. The subwoofer was on, crossed over at 40 hz, 24 db per octave. The 40s were run full range. I believe the subwoofer levels might have been set up for the Alphas.

Next we hooked up the Alphas where Jerry said they sounded best. Sub level was not touched. Finally the Horns were set up. Again, subwoofer levels were not touched.

When we started listening to the speakers, I turned the subs up for the Horns. When the Alphas were plugged in I intially had the levels too high and then turned them down. When the 40s were played we all felt the sub was not needed. We also found out that the sub was wired in reverse phase to sound good with the Alphas.

If Jerry is allowed to have folks visit him again, I would love to spend a lot more time with both the Alphas and 40s with Tyson and Jason tuning everything to their young ears. I would be very willing to take readings during the process to see what the measurements show or do not show.

BTW, I heard from Jason/Pez. He was up in Glenwood Springs with his family. He did express interest in listening to both the Alphas and 40s at some point in the future.

What both readings of the Alphas and 40s show is the big room peak between 50 and 70 hz.