NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene

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revelinhifi

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Yes it did get benefits exactly as I have described in my previous posts, what has been the point of all the previous questioning and placing doubt to my word is if not to trust my experience.


In the very first reply to my post when I ask for people with experience in having worked with these mods, the reply was none of advice but try it for your self that I did and am totally confident to advise as I have.

A one sure way to be certain then is anyone having such a strong opinion then try the mod yourself go to the small expense and trouble and report back the effect after listening a week - reverse it if not happy with the result :thumb:

Julf

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Yes it did get benefits exactly as I have described in my previous posts, what has been the point of all the previous questioning and placing doubt to my word is if not to trust my experience.

We trust your experience, but we aren't sure it can be generalized to anyone else.

Quote
A one sure way to be certain then is anyone having such a strong opinion then try the mod yourself go to the small expense and trouble and report back the effect after listening a week - reverse it if not happy with the result

I don't have a strong opinion, but I don't feel it is likely enough to cause any improvement in my system to go through the trouble. Others might, and hopefully report back - some might even do some blind tests.

cheap-Jack

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WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #62 on: 4 Oct 2013, 03:18 am »
Hi.

So to sum up we don't have instruments available to day which can measure the difference we can hear with our ear yet we cannot make measurements to explain the difference in what we hear with our ear. There is lacking in a tool and a measurement, please find this tool and measurement to explain what we hear with our ear.
 John


As an audiophile/DIYer & an EE, I fully agree that the the objective measurement done with the instrumentatioin available todate can't tell what we HEAR.
So until that day in the remote future when such instrumantion is available to provide data relevant to what we hear, let us
let our ear to have the final say.

Back to the issue of replacing the stock PE caps with PP caps to get better sound that most most audio fans fond of doing. I've got the opposite sonic conclusion with the O/P coupling caps for my one-stage RIAA tube phonostage.

The WIMA metallized film caps I installed to replace the exsiting no-name PE film caps sounded much much worse that the PE film caps! Givng them the benifits of the doubt - the WIMA new PP caps need breaking-in to give good sound, I carried out a crash breaking-in process with a 20Hz-20KHz sweeping signals into the new WIMA PP caps already installed in my amp for 8 hours non-stop
at pretty high voltage (higher than its normal audio voltage range) to achieve the intended quick breaking-in result.

Such crash breaking-in process did improve a bit the sound of the new WIMA PP caps, but they still sound relatively dull, veiled, & lack of transparancy & details than the old PE film caps. The sonic difference was so huge that I can conclude such PE to PP caps swap is a complete failure (w/o need of any DBTs at all).

I had no choice but to swap back to the old no-name PE caps & threw out the new WIMA PP caps. The sound comes right back to fast, clean, transparent & musically like before.

Well, listening is believing.

c-J
   

EuroDriver

Any other polyproplene or polyester cap that would fit ?
« Reply #63 on: 4 Oct 2013, 05:30 am »
I have known about Ric for about 15 years back in my Maggie modding days and I have great respect for his knowledge and experience.

I have had my dual mono NC400 running for close to a year now.  The mids and highs sound so good I can't imagine them sounding any better ( the system is playing in a heavily treated room)

For me, the report that one Wima poly had steel leads is pretty alarming.  Over the years I have become convinced that each material has its own sound signature, with rhodium, silver and copper at the top of my list.

About 18 months ago, I had a conversation with Andreas Koch of Playback Design about why conductor materials sound different.  He said it was all about the electrical resonant frequencies of the materials.  That's why the different materials have their sonic signature and why annealing, cryo treating and crystal structure all make a sonic difference.  The different sonic signature of dielectrics fits this elelectrical resonance theory well.

I am not fired up to try the mod, but I am always loth to leave SQ improvement on the table !

Are there any other polyproplene or polystyrene caps with the right package format and value that can be used ?

Julf

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Re: Any other polyproplene or polyester cap that would fit ?
« Reply #64 on: 4 Oct 2013, 07:22 am »
About 18 months ago, I had a conversation with Andreas Koch of Playback Design about why conductor materials sound different.  He said it was all about the electrical resonant frequencies of the materials.  That's why the different materials have their sonic signature and why annealing, cryo treating and crystal structure all make a sonic difference.  The different sonic signature of dielectrics fits this elelectrical resonance theory well.

Just to clarify, was he talking about the electrical resonance (as determined by the inductance and capacitance of a conductor - more dependent on the geometry of the conductor than the material) or perhaps some form of nuclear resonance?

EuroDriver

Re: Any other polyproplene or polyester cap that would fit ?
« Reply #65 on: 4 Oct 2013, 01:37 pm »
Just to clarify, was he talking about the electrical resonance (as determined by the inductance and capacitance of a conductor - more dependent on the geometry of the conductor than the material) or perhaps some form of nuclear resonance?

Good question !  I would imagine the electrical resonance determined by inductance capacitance and impedance changes at junctions and boundaries for sure, but also nuclear resonance or perhaps molecular dipole resonance would have an effect too.  I am reminded about some development work done by NAIM many years ago with lead acid battery power for preamps.  The sound was very muffled and the work stopped.

Julf

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Re: Any other polyproplene or polyester cap that would fit ?
« Reply #66 on: 4 Oct 2013, 01:49 pm »
I would imagine the electrical resonance determined by inductance capacitance and impedance changes at junctions and boundaries for sure

The Q value of any of those resonances would be extremely low (except at very high frequencies - way above audio), and as I stated, they are mainly determined by geometry and layout (and isolator material), and not by core material choice.

Quote
but also nuclear resonance or perhaps molecular dipole resonance would have an effect too.

Hmm, "maybe any possible resonance might have some effect" doesn't sound like much of an explanation to me.

barrows

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while I try to eliminate steel and other magnetic materials from the signal path as well, I must point out that the Ncore modules have a lot of steel parts in and close to the signal path.  Note the screws which terminate the speaker leads are steel (in my amp, they, and the terminals are removed and the wiring to the binding posts are soldered directly into the board).  But, what is probably even more of a potential problem, is that all of the SMD resistors on the board likely have steel endcaps, and all the electrolytic caps are almost certainly have steel leads as well.
Just something to think about...

revelinhifi

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After reading all these post about the comparison I made between the stock NC400 amp and the NC400 with swapped out capacitors and speaker posts. I suggest other opinions have little ground as they are comments and just that, they don't have any solid proof behind them as the commenters have not heard the results with there ears themselves.

Comments are pure speculation and are same thoughts I had before I commenced and proved to myself following taking the required steps to prove the changes to myself using my hearing as the test tool. The change has not impacted the musical rhythm, is unaffected too the toes continue to tap

Thanks
John
 


 

Julf

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I suggest other opinions have little ground as they are comments and just that, they don't have any solid proof behind them as the commenters have not heard the results with there ears themselves.

True. They are just based on common engineering knowledge, not the much superior subjective opinion of one person.


Ric Schultz

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Opinions not based in reality (direct experience is the only reality) are pure conjecture....and are therefor lies.  The truth about how something sounds is how is sounds.  Not what you THINK it should be.  So, a listening test is always superior to conjecture.  You, my friend have no direct knowledge on the subject....you are essentially ignorant.  Nothing wrong with not knowing.  When it is disguised as "superior common engineering knowledge" then it is just the ego pretending to be superior.  You have no clothes on.  You have no knowledge.  You only have book learning.  You have not experienced this with your own ears.  The most pure and sensitive instrument there is.....is our ears (relating to sound reproduction).  If you do not use them then you are just in your head and pretending to actually know something.  Your comments are useless.  It's as if someone lived in a cave and never saw the sky but had a book on what the colors are but was told by his cave teacher that the sky outside was green.  So, one day this person finally goes outside the cave and looks at the sky and thinks to themselves....hey, it does not look green to me....looks like it is blue.  So, was his cave teacher correct or is his experience correct?  So, are you the cave teacher/student stuck in your cave or are you ever going to go outside and look (listen) for yourself to see (hear) what is REALLY TRUE?!!!!?

This openness to experiencing what is.....is what makes us more than animals....even more than human.  We have curiosity.  We have imagination.  We have will.  We can experience all life.  We can know the truth....about anything....including our own basic nature.  Would you like to know the truth....or just be right?

Julf

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All I can say is that I am very glad Bruno Putzeys relied on his book learning, theoretical understanding and engineering skills when designing the nc400, instead of sitting in a coffee shop trying to experience all life.

Julf

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Opinions not based in reality (direct experience is the only reality) are pure conjecture....and are therefor lies.  The truth about how something sounds is how is sounds.  Not what you THINK it should be.  So, a listening test is always superior to conjecture.  You, my friend have no direct knowledge on the subject....you are essentially ignorant.  Nothing wrong with not knowing.  When it is disguised as "superior common engineering knowledge" then it is just the ego pretending to be superior.  You have no clothes on.  You have no knowledge.  You only have book learning.  You have not experienced this with your own ears.  The most pure and sensitive instrument there is.....is our ears (relating to sound reproduction).  If you do not use them then you are just in your head and pretending to actually know something.  Your comments are useless.  It's as if someone lived in a cave and never saw the sky but had a book on what the colors are but was told by his cave teacher that the sky outside was green.  So, one day this person finally goes outside the cave and looks at the sky and thinks to themselves....hey, it does not look green to me....looks like it is blue.  So, was his cave teacher correct or is his experience correct?  So, are you the cave teacher/student stuck in your cave or are you ever going to go outside and look (listen) for yourself to see (hear) what is REALLY TRUE?!!!!?

This openness to experiencing what is.....is what makes us more than animals....even more than human.  We have curiosity.  We have imagination.  We have will.  We can experience all life.  We can know the truth....about anything....including our own basic nature.  Would you like to know the truth....or just be right?

I realize you posted that at 11:35 pm on a Friday evening. I remember Google having an experimental feature, "Mail Goggles", that required you to successfully solve some simple math problems before letting you post late at night on weekends. Maybe forums should have a similar device?

jtwrace

All I can say is that I am very glad Bruno Putzeys relied on his book learning, theoretical understanding and engineering skills when designing the nc400, instead of sitting in a coffee shop trying to experience all life.
+1

cab

+2....

Funny how these ignorant engineers design these things then along come the zen tweaker gurus, always on the coat tails, who despite never designing a complete piece of equipment in their lives, somehow know better than the designers with claims they have "improved" them. "Stupid" Bruno was smart enough to design the amp but not smart enough to know how a simple piece of wire or a capacitor can take the amp into the twilight zone.....

Like the guy who paints racing stripes on his car and claims it goes faster because it looks faster....

If you have such a command of what it takes to design a top flight class d amp, why don't you design and build your own instead of hacking the work of Hypex, Icepower, etc.? My guess is because you lack the fundamental engineering skills to do so and it is much easier way to make a buck by simply changing a wire or capacitor and claim you have "transformed" the amp...
« Last Edit: 5 Oct 2013, 03:55 pm by cab »

fsimms

You are like the guy who paints racing stripes on his car and claims it goes faster because it looks faster....

Everybody knows that the only way to make a car run smoother and faster is to wash an wax it.  :nono:

Bob

EuroDriver

TIME OUT ! Let's be civil !
« Reply #76 on: 5 Oct 2013, 03:36 pm »
Personal attacks have no place in a forum where the members are sharing their knowledge and experience in a common pursuit of good sound !

Although my experience is that a heavy majority of posters are actually misinformed, I still appreciate every one who takes time to post ! 


OzarkTom

Or you can switch to a Job 225 amp and never buy another Class D amp. No Class D amp made today has the transparency of a Job.

cab

Or not, and wait till next month for the new flavor...

Jon L

Or you can switch to a Job 225 amp and never buy another Class D amp. No Class D amp made today has the transparency of a Job.

JOB's reasonable pricing introduces some interesting issues in my estimation. 8)  Since it really does not add any extra richness, bloom, or forgiveness, users who match it with similarly-priced front-end and speakers, not to mention cabling, may find the sound a bit "naked" so to speak..