NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene

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jtwrace

It could also be that it sounds "better" to you. That doesn't mean that the amp has been objectively improved, it means it sounds different.
Bingo!!!!






Julf

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It could also be that it sounds "better" to you. That doesn't mean that the amp has been objectively improved, it means it sounds different.

If it sounds better to John, it is better to John. It makes him enjoy his system more.

I, on the other hand, don't see enough evidence that it would improve things for *me*. That is of course for each one of us to decide. We have no objective evidence either way.



jackman

This has officially turned into a standard cap argument.  Give the guy a break, he's doing the exact thing I've seen so many people do. He changed caps and it sounds better to him.  Cap threads always devolve into arguments. 

Also, every person who mods a piece if gear thinks it sounds better.  How is this different?

jackman

Sorry, duplicate post.

rklein

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This has officially turned into a standard cap argument.  Give the guy a break, he's doing the exact thing I've seen so many people do. He changed caps and it sounds better to him.  Cap threads always devolve into arguments. 

+1

Y'know what else is not being said in this way too long thread and what is so cool about the ability to DIY...

If John didn't like the results of his mod...guess what....he can always put the original type cap back in!!  :lol:

Regards,

Randy


Ric Schultz

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I think we should have a single "objectivist type" person always interject a single number "7" instead of the usual:

1. Not valid because you did not measure it.  It must measure better for it to mean anything.
2. Not valid because you did not do a blind ABX test.
3. Not valid because you just listened to it and we are subject to our own delusions and sounding different is not necessarily better.
4. Not valid because you did not contact the designer and ask his opinion of this mod/listening test.
5. Not valid because it is not valid science....hence is voodoo.
6. Not valid because I did not think of it or invent it. 
7. etc. etc. etc.

So, which of you objectivists wants to be the #7 injector?  So, on any thread after any post there will be just one same guy who posts nothing but a #7.  This way we know the "scientific objectivists" are watching over our every move and are enjoying their superiority....he he.  And this way we save bandwidth and don't have to read the same old things over and over.  There was a guy on Audioasylum who hated DVD-A.  He always interjected some trash....finally we just named his posts #9 if I remember correctly.  This way we had a lot of fun with him.  He eventually went away.  However, the objectivists are a religious group.  They feel they must state the "truth" because letting the majority of audiofools have their way would be against reality.  You have to realize that at least 80% of serious audiophiles are subjectivists.  The other group however is more adamant and are always on the forums letting everyone know that the "emperor has no clothes".  The major reason why there are not more subjectivists posting on line is the thrashing they get from the resident objectivists and they would just rather enjoy their music instead.

#7 could also be used by us subjectivists to let the objectivists know we know their sad story.  So, after someone posts about the sound of caps or whatever they can just put a #7 at the bottom of the post and the objectivist objections would already be covered.  This way the objectivists would never have anything to say.....he he.

I hope you enjoy my humor....I do. 
Love is all there is.

Julf

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I think we should have a single "objectivist type" person

Why is it always the anti-objectivist types who want to paint the world as a black-and-white objectivist/subjectivist one?

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You have to realize that at least 80% of serious audiophiles are subjectivists.

You have to realize that is just a silly generalisation with no basis in fact.  :)

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I hope you enjoy my humor....

Likewise.

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Love is all there is.

But my love is better than your love.


drmike

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go rick!

Julf

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You have to realize that at least 80% of serious audiophiles are subjectivists.

Actually, you are probably right. I think that 80% corresponds to the number of people who mostly post stuff like "changing from my $3000 USB cable to an even thicker and shinier one with a bamboo box on it and a $5000 price tag made such a night and day difference to the sound of my system" while the 20% that actually understand the technology seem to be the ones posting actual useful information.

Music is art. Sound reproduction is engineering (applied science).


waver

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+1 Julf!

Ric Schultz

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Julf and Waver......you could have just used #7 in your replies (much better than +1!).  See how much simpler it is.  No, you have to have the last word......so sad.  Go on....you know you HAVE to reply again....he he.  If you really want to make it even bigger you could do #7+#7  or #7squared or #7 times infinity or just use a thousand explanation marks.

By the way, all parts and execution have a sound that cannot be measured and must be listened to....to determine the most pure sound.  There is not a single part that passes a straight wire bypass test....including wire.  Even every solder brand sounds different and some silver solders sound dull....really dull...try the Acer Racing solder...super high silver content and super dull sound.

#7

randytsuch

Imagine someone building an audio system, and only caring about how it sounds?  8)

Julf

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By the way, all parts and execution have a sound that cannot be measured and must be listened to....to determine the most pure sound.  There is not a single part that passes a straight wire bypass test....including wire.  Even every solder brand sounds different and some silver solders sound dull....really dull...try the Acer Racing solder...super high silver content and super dull sound.

I suggest we also number the standard "subjectivist" claims in order to save space.

But more importantly, you seem to think "objectivists" are people who don't care about how things sound, and only care about measurements - and that misses the point totally.

We all enjoy a good-sounding system, and don't need measurements to tell us what sounds good to us.

The important difference between so-called "objectivists" and "subjectivists" is exactly that last part- "what sounds good to *us*". We realize that our preference is just that - a subjective preference, and we also realize that the human ear-brain system is a rather easily deceived, imprecise and fallible gauge of absolute differences. Thus we know that while listening results are always the ultimate judgment of the sound quality of a system or component, controls and safeguards must be in place to ensure the preference isn't caused by factors other than the actual sound waves.

Ironically, "objectivists" believe in the subjectivity of the hearing experience, while "subjectivists" believe their own, personal and subjective preferences are the absolute truth. I suggest we rename "subjectivists" to "absolutists". Or maybe "solipsists".

revelinhifi

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I started this thread because of genuine interest in the fact that the caps and the speaker post used in the NC400 are generally known not to be the best sounding.

I have been to a number of liver shows and have the recordings, I also have a fairly good front end and testing software which delivers bit perfect data to the DAC, this software has significant gains over DLNA connected DAC's and the sound produced by the DAC is the best I have heard yet. once3 PS Audio makes this general release the PS Audio DAC will be elevated even further as an honest good sounding DAC. So I feel I have a front end reasonable original to the sound made by instruments and voice worthy of amplification when I compare recordings and the live show I'm very happy the Mod of the CAPS and speaker post in the NC400 bought me closer to the live sound I have heard that is my message.

I have benefited by others with there posts that got me thinking and into action which has allowed me to get closer to the live sound, that's what I care about and nothing else. If someone else reads these post and has the expertise, tools and interested in performing the mod because the time is right for them. They have been following audio for years and have read similar experiences by others. I write my experience to those. I'm happy to write the NC400 is blocking the highs and midrange which is there in the unit and a more defined bass can be heard by swapping out the caps and hardwiring the speaker post. It takes a fair bit of effort and skill to do the job that is for certain so its is not for all but then if keen you can take it to someone who can do the job ask them about swapping back the caps if you think the SQ has not been improved give your self some comfort there so all wont be lost. I found the NC400 very tolerant to the mod.

now hiding the power loom cable as I have I have not heard any benefit doing that.

I don't have any itch to think I need to mod my PS Audio DAC that says something doesn't it, I'm not driven to mod everything I own but the things which don't sit that well with me I will. The steel clamping post and the steel polyester leads it was good to rid those - are an audible compromise to sound heard by the EAR :thumb:   

Ric Schultz

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"We realize that our preference is just that - a subjective preference, and we also realize that the human ear-brain system is a rather easily deceived, imprecise and fallible gauge of absolute differences. Thus we know that while listening results are always the ultimate judgment of the sound quality of a system or component, controls and safeguards must be in place to ensure the preference isn't caused by factors other than the actual sound waves."

Who is this we that you talk about?  This we realize, this we know?  You can only talk for yourself.  I trust my own experience completely.  I can tell when a component is more linear/more real sounding.  The ear-heart-brain system is the ultimate judge.  The ear-heart-brain is the most sensitive instrument there is.  Way more sensitive than any measurement machine.  When you learn to trust your senses....when you have done serious A/Bs over and over you realize that you can tell what is real and what is not.  The only thing that is real in audio is what you hear.  Your experience is real.  The measurements on a machine are not......they are just an indication of something that may have some validity or not.  Your direct experience is the only thing that is real.  We need no safeguards from our experience.  What we need is an open mind and an open heart.  Then you will let yourself experience all that is possible.  And what is possible is way beyond what we can even imagine.  We are infinite.  We are magic itself.  We are life itself.

I talk in duality to make a point.  We are all both objective and subjective.  It is a matter of amounts.  Balance is the point.  Extremism is always out of balance.  But direct experience is the teacher.  I measure things.  I respect what measurements can show.  I listen to things.  I respect what listening can show.  But I seriously respect other peoples experience.  If someone says they hear something I would never come in and try to squash their reality.....I would not try to find out if they listened with all the "safeguards" in place.  I trust peoples experience.  If I were in the same room listening to the same system then I would more than likely hear the same thing.  I have done lots of listening tests where we straight wire bypass tested solder, wire, caps and resistors....everyone in the room always heard the same thing.  I started doing A/B testing in the late 70s.  We would borrow 10 Supex cartridges from Sumiko and mount them on universal headshells and number them and listen to them all day.  There were always a couple that were the best...and one that was the absolute best.  Some were not good at all.  All these cartridges came with printed frequency graphs that seemed to have no correlation to the sound of the cartridge.  Once you have done this kind of test over and over (especially with others that hear the same thing you do) you start to really trust your own experience.

Here is a story I have shared here before:  An audiophile believed that amps, preamps and speakers sound different but he was adamant that wires were all the same.  He befriended a new person and started to turn him on to audio.  The two of them were invited over to my friends house where they were going to listen to some heavily modded Soundlab electrostats driven by a 3 megahertz bandwidth amp (seriously transparent sound).  There was another person there too.....he is the one that told me about this experience.  At one point they decided to A/B a couple of interconnects and the non-believer had to go into the kitchen so he would not even be in the same room.  The other 3 all listened and agreed on the differences between the cables.....including the newby that the non-believer had tried to indoctrinate.  He did not even want to be in the room where they were A/Bing.  If he stayed in the room then if someone asked him if he heard the sound difference.....what would he say?  Would he let himself be wrong after all those years of disbelief?  Could he even listen openly? 

Every single moment is a new blessed moment.  It is filled with infinite love, joy and beauty.  Can we allow ourselves to feel and experience it?  This is what we all have come here to do.  We have all come to awaken.  "Toward the one. The perfection of love, harmony and beauty, the Only Being"

Geez its not even Sunday and I'm preaching already...he he.

Now back to our regular program.

#7 times infinity   


Julf

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I trust my own experience completely.

I know.

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Geez its not even Sunday and I'm preaching already...he he.

Indeed.

Religion has it's place. But sound reproduction systems are not designed by religious visionaries. They are designed by engineers, applying science.

To make this at least somewhat relevant to this thread, let's take the example of the output cap mod of the hypex amp.

To keep this short, I will use the tag <DEASPK> to signify the phrase "designed by engineers applying scientific principles and knowledge".

The music you listen to was captured by microphones <DEASPK> and/or created by electronic instruments <DEASPK>. It was then amplified and processed by a recording chain <DEASPK>. The result was probably stored and processed, passing thousands of transistors, in a DAW <DEASPK>. The end result was burned on a metalized plastic disc <DEASPK> using a recording system <DEASPK>, or transferred as a digital file through numerous routers and switches on the Internet <DEASPK> and downloaded to your computer <DEASPK>. It is then processed, amplified and turned into sound waves in your listening system <DEASPK>.

Yes, it is possible that in that whole long chain, the weak component is the use of inferior caps at the output of your amp, and that they make a significant contribution to the resulting sound. But before I take that as a given and generalize it to the systems of other people, I might want to spend some time verifying it. But that's just me.

revelinhifi

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I have not read the last two post yet and will do with interest.

One thing I'm not sure if it is being understood I'm not just talking about improved SQ but sounds that you don't hear with the stock caps and standard speaker post.

The modified NC400 with Mod WIMA caps by Ric Schultz and hard wired speaker posts I can hear instruments and sounds not heard with the unmodified NC400

Thanks
John

cab

I trust my own experience completely.

It's just that I don't trust your experience, or others, completely. It is subjective.

Different doesn't mean better for everyone.


revelinhifi

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How about the fact that I can hear sounds not heard with the stock unit and can't hear them with the modified unit not just that the SQ is improved. How about a focus on that particular point, I like that aspect a lot and is a big winner for me  :thumb:

These three facts made me mod my second pair after listening and comparing the units - there is more music heard and the SQ is improved also of great delight was the fact that the sound stage is more defined, at low volumes is like you have a pair of headphones on, the imaging just beautiful 

Julf

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How about the fact that I can hear sounds not heard with the stock unit and can't hear them with the modified unit not just that the SQ is improved. How about a focus on that particular point, I like that aspect a lot and is a big winner for me

We are of course happy to hear that it worked for you! Excellent!