NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene

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farquad

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #220 on: 31 Oct 2013, 06:09 am »

I emailed Nelson Pass a few months ago about the fact that I was going to mod his First Watt amps and I told him I would help him with tweaking his products and even do it for cheap or free.  He replied that what I do is valid but "he has no interest in it".  He is making great money doing what he wants (circuit design) and has no interest in going down the long tunnel of tweakdom.  You see.....tweaking is like life....it is infinite....an infinite Pandoras box....yup.  You will never get to the end.  You will never reach "perfection".  Once you do a few straight wire bypass tests and realize that even a small piece of wire is audible....well....you realize that the game is never ending.  The objectivists live in a simple world.  I envy such simplicity.  Nelson had no problem with me playing with or modding his gear.  He does not resist tweaking........he just has no interest in it.
It seams mr pass is a very polite man. Giving you such a polite answer. You practicly told him you could redo what he has done and then tell him how to do his job. I wonder why he declined.


You realize that it has never been proven that lower measured distortion actually brings better sound (amps and preamps, not speakers). 

You keep replying to posts which hasnt been posted.
Noone said low distortion, to a degree of 100%, equals better sound quality.
Low distortion measurement on its own says nothing about sound quality.
The thing with NCore is we already know it sounds great and it measures great.
So a measured improvement would most definately indicate an improvement in sound quality. If that sound quality is audible is another matter though.

Julf

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #221 on: 31 Oct 2013, 06:36 am »
So far, from what I am hearing here-it appears that folks calling themselves objectivists actually choose all their audio components based on measurements alone?!!  Really?

No. Really. We just don't pretend what we happen to like is "better" in any absolute sense, and we don't assume other people necessarily agree with our tastes. What we are saying is that if you want to know if a change actually results in an improvement in an objective sense, measurements are essential. And measurements are much more than just distortion (that subjectivists seem hung up on).


Ric Schultz

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #222 on: 31 Oct 2013, 07:59 am »
12 pages of nothing! 

You either trust the direct experience of your being/mind and senses or you don't.  I trust what I experience.  It is beautiful.  You are beautiful.  Thoughts are like clouds....just drifting and changing....not really much there.  The beautiful truth is always waiting to be felt and known.  I wish you all wonderful joy and love.....for it is what we have come for.

Julf

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #223 on: 31 Oct 2013, 08:04 am »
You either trust the direct experience of your being/mind and senses or you don't.

Exactly. You either acknowledge the imperfections (or maybe better call them "quirks" - the "imperfections" probably served us well during our evolutionary history as a species) or you don't.


Ric Schultz

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #224 on: 31 Oct 2013, 08:18 am »
What imperfections?  It is all perfect....yup...all of it...including the so called imperfections.  All I see is love.  All I am is love.  All you are is love.  Eternal infinite love.  Just as in audio truth (based on listening with our senses).....the truth of our being is experienced by directly listening to life with our hearts and minds totally open.  Practice makes perfection.  Please try to listen more.  You will be surprised by how glorious it all is.  Why practice when it is already perfect?  Because we have forgotten.....we must re-member ourselves.  We came to reclaim our glory!  Our Joy!  Our Happiness!  Oh Happy Day!

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #225 on: 31 Oct 2013, 12:38 pm »
What imperfections?  It is all perfect....

So why mod? Oh, that's right, that's how you make your living.

I trust my hearing and perceptions. I just don't trust yours.

waver

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #226 on: 31 Oct 2013, 12:44 pm »
Read my statement again.  The example requires one to hear the cello playing during the recording session live in the room.  Yes, there will be small differences due to microphone choice, placement, etc, but anyone who has actual experience doing this kind of test will hear much larger differences between the live sound, and the playback sound.  Unfortunately, even high end audio systems are very far from sounding the same as the real thing.
Finally we agree, except for the microphone choice and placement that give rather big differences!

Now tell me, how many self declared subjectivists attended recording sessions of the recordings they use for testing?
I'll tell you: NONE! Never heard of studios complaining about too many atendees (audiophiles).
But lets pretend they were attending, it's mostly several years in the past. Do you really want me to believe that you (and them) have such a "perfect" memory, that you remember every detail (after years) and can compare it to the sound of the playing amp?  :o
And while comparing from memory you can account for the "much larger differences between the live sounds (back then) and the playback (today)", put your personal preference aside and quantify the much smaller difference between stock and modded NC400 and say which is "closer to the real thing"?
Sorry, but i don't believe it!

Let's keep it simple and say you like one better than the other and save all the BS about 'greatly improved sound' or 'significantly more details'.

jtwrace

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #227 on: 31 Oct 2013, 12:47 pm »
Maybe PS Audio hired musicians to play for barrows & the design team so they could match their equipment sonically.   :rotflmao:

waver

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #228 on: 31 Oct 2013, 12:48 pm »
No. Really. We just don't pretend what we happen to like is "better" in any absolute sense, and we don't assume other people necessarily agree with our tastes. What we are saying is that if you want to know if a change actually results in an improvement in an objective sense, measurements are essential. And measurements are much more than just distortion (that subjectivists seem hung up on).
+1

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #229 on: 31 Oct 2013, 01:09 pm »
No. Really. We just don't pretend what we happen to like is "better" in any absolute sense, and we don't assume other people necessarily agree with our tastes. What we are saying is that if you want to know if a change actually results in an improvement in an objective sense, measurements are essential. And measurements are much more than just distortion (that subjectivists seem hung up on).

that's it-exactly!

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #230 on: 31 Oct 2013, 01:55 pm »
Funny how no one has bothered to ask Bruno his opinion.....

Toaster

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #231 on: 31 Oct 2013, 02:02 pm »
While the 'subjectivists' will groan, even though I tend to choose audio equipment based on what I think of the sound of it, limitations like expectation bias are a genuine issue. I also agree that comparing a modified amp to a fixed reference in a system context may not be useful. Using the example given, what if the recording of the cello really is lacking in 'body'? If an amp adds more 'body', this does not necessarily make it better- it may really be slightly worse but sound more like a real cello (or the listeners memories of real cellos) in that room, with that system, than it did before. But there is another side to the coin; experiential evidence has helped push developments in audio design and measurement techniques which have resulted in what many would regard as better sound and better engineering. Also, I have found that expectation bias is not quite as powerful and pervasive as is sometimes suggested. Just anecdotal I know, but I have listened to comparisons between pieces of hifi gear that have not gone at all as I expected. I have been surprised. Also, I have heard equipment that sounded so-so in one context sound excellent in another. So, while I respect those who are attempting to push the boundaries like Ric, I do have concerns about repeatability and consistancy. 'Context' is a really big deal in this context! I do worry that, even with the best intentions, it is easy to become involved with modifications and experiments to the extent that one is emotionally entangled with outcomes, to the potential detriment of accurate reporting. I'm not saying this is necessarily so, but it is a risk. There is a danger that if one is too sceptical, genuine and useful improvements might be ignored. Then again, 'subjectivists' need to be cautious about making pronouncements based on necessarily limited personal experiences as if (ironically?) they were objective.

Toaster

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #232 on: 31 Oct 2013, 02:16 pm »
While I wouldn't presume to speak for Bruno, his response is really embodied in the amplifier itself. At some point, as a designer, you have to 'put the pen down' and call the design done. If he considers it to be a 'no-compromise' design, then he has done everything he thinks he can, that (in his view) makes a difference. Just because it is not someone else's idea of 'no-compromise' doesn't mean it isn't his at the point the design is completed. This doesn't preclude further improvements in the future. Knowledge can develop...

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #233 on: 31 Oct 2013, 07:04 pm »
I do worry that, even with the best intentions, it is easy to become involved with modifications and experiments to the extent that one is emotionally entangled with outcomes, to the potential detriment of accurate reporting.

And then there are financial entanglements...

bbest

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #234 on: 19 Nov 2013, 06:02 am »
Hi guys!

Why you all wasting your time? Too many pages of "water". Who from you really tasted NC400 with or without tweaked PP caps? Please try to be more realistic against theorize. Ric Schultz you have did a great job. Thanks for sharing of your experience!

revelinhifi

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #235 on: 1 Dec 2013, 06:00 am »
Just been catching up on this post I started after being away awhile recladding my house. Work still in progress but over the hump.

Been an hilarious read catching up on things said, some just don't get it, if you haven't any real world experience your comments have no substance, my original post was aimed at people willing to make adjustment and speak for them selves.

I have adjusted my middle cap to face opposite to the caps each side, correctly facing the caps as Ric has specified, I'm extremely happy with the results, also PS Audio has made available a firmware release for the Perfect Wave DAC in tandem with the PS Audio WaveStream  software the Audio experience with my modified NC400 is the best I have heard. The audio experience allows me to easily feel as if I was there at the live recording. Before the recent mods this was not the case. :thumb:

If you haven't tried it how can you comment? If you base your opinion on anything other than real world experience, then your opinion has no basis for comment :nono: I want to hear from people with real experience. If you try the mod after having lived with the NC400 sound for a year+ then feel free to convey your personal experience on the resulting sound change :thumb:   

Cheers

Rclark

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #236 on: 1 Dec 2013, 06:39 am »
My guess is you're hearing things and need to spend a lengthy period of time with the mod. I just don't believe a cap change will "improve these amps". Change, yes. And change in these situations is always initially thought an improvement.

Rclark

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #237 on: 1 Dec 2013, 07:47 am »
Hey everybody,  let's just be honest. You've had these amps in your system or you own these amps and you love these amps. Ncores kick ass, and have clearly audible superiority and power.

I have some other fairly high quality amps in my system and, or I've borrowed others.

Ncores are flat out amazing, period. I can't imagine not being heavily impressed by them, especially considering their size, efficiency, and the fact that even in a completely sealed chassis they never get more than slightly warm to the touch despite throwing Maggie panels around like ragdolls.

You all love these amps and you know it.

cab

Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #238 on: 1 Dec 2013, 02:27 pm »
If you try the mod after having lived with the NC400 sound for a year+ then feel free to convey your personal experience on the resulting sound change :thumb:   

Cheers

No one has denied that there may be a sound change. What has been stated, and rightly so, is that there is no telling if this sound change will be perceived as an improvement by everyone, nor is there any proof that the amp has been objectively improved by the mod.

waver

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Re: NC400 WIMA capacitor modification - polyester to polypropylene
« Reply #239 on: 1 Dec 2013, 02:32 pm »
If you haven't tried it how can you comment? If you base your opinion on anything other than real world experience, then your opinion has no basis for comment :nono:
well, then let me ask you a question:

... the Audio experience with my modified NC400 is the best I have heard. The audio experience allows me to easily feel as if I was there at the live recording. Before the recent mods this was not the case. :thumb:
We all get it that you like the way the mod sounds. That's excellent and i am happy for you. Enjoy the wonderfull experiences of listening to music.

But how can you tell that with the mod it's like "at the live recording"?
I hate to repeat myself, but i don't beleive you were in the recording rooms when the recordings (you use for evaluation) were done! So you only assume it's "like at the live recording".
Now, if you base your comments on assumptions why am i not wellcome to comment?
I accept that you like the sound of the mod, that it's closer to you personal preference or to what you imagine would be the "perferct" reproduction, but i can't accept comments like 'improvement', 'natural', 'accurate', 'real' or 'like at the live recording' as you weren't in the recording room. period.
Sorry, but the more you repeat it the more your credibility goes down ...