[btrain]

So, I am very new to the audiophile world, and all I really know is that I love music and that I love what I perceive to be ‘good’ sound quality when I hear it. I recently got the best bday present ever!  A Manley Stingray amp---this is an older discontinued model.
 
My budget does not exactly coincide with that of the price points set at Manley Labs. I have ordered a pair of Zu omen Dirty Weekend speakers to pair with the amp. In researching speakers audiocircle popped up a lot! I ordered the Zu’s mainly because they seemed to be one of the best speakers I could buy for the money ($999). Hoping to be able to upgrade them  within the year  with Zu’s awesome trade-up option.  It’s been a week since I ordered, so the speakers should arrive in 2-3 weeks.

In the meantime, I have been looking at turntables. I would definitely like to start collecting vinyl. I will be getting the Pro-ject 1.3 RM turntable. Again, an ‘entry level’ TT at a price point I can afford---similar to the ZU DW’s (and it looks good too!, much like the omens).

I realize now that I need a preamp for the turn table. I keep coming back to the Bellari VP130 by Rolls. I am pretty lost when it comes to the preamp. I am coming back to this one because it has a tube, and the manley is a tube amp. It is also, again, in my price range and looks good! I have read about issues with the power supply, and I am fully prepared to pull the trigger on a new power supply along with upgrading the stock tube that comes with the Bellari. 
 
Does the fact that the bellari has a tube even matter? Could I get an even cheaper non-tube phono preamp and get the same sound quality paring it with the stingray? I have also read that your system is only as strong as the weakest component. Am I somehow going to degrade sound quality by pairing a high-end amp with an entry level turntable and preamp? Isn’t  the preamp simply meant to build the signal from the TT up to an acceptable line level? If so, why does the quality of the preamp come into play if it is simply meant to achieve that goal?
So, in summary, given my budget and penchant for aesthetics, will the above combo outlined above work well? (Manley Stingray, Pro-Ject TT, Bellari VP130 Preamp, Zu Omen DW)

I think for my relatively virgin ears, I will more than likely be blown away by this combo, but I’m definitely very interested in seeing what others have to say.

I’m very excited to get these speakers in a few weeks  and re-experience all of my music in High Fidelity!

Thanks in advance for reading and responding! And thanks to all of the posters that have helped me without knowing it when I was researching speakers! 

Sorry for the length of the post….Just excited and curious!   

[jarcher]

Welcome to AC!  I also own a Manley Stingray, which I love, and owned a Pro-ject RPM 1.3, which was my re-entry into vinyl.  If you haven't yet bought the 1.3, I'd suggest going instead for the Pro-ject Debut Carbon.  It has the better carbon fibre tonearm which is fitted on their more expensive table, and to my ears the Ortofon 2M Red on the Carbon is better than the Sumiko Pearl on the 1.3.  And you'll save yourself $100! 

I know - the RPM 1.3 looks cooler - I'm a sucker for aesthetics and I got one in bright red for that reason.  You can get the Debut Carbon in red - as well as other shiny colors as well! 

If you already have the RPM 1.3, I suggest two things : (1) be very careful that the motor doesn't touch the "ring" it sits in - this will transmit hum into the table & subsequently into the stylus, which you will hear.  And (2) IMMEADIATELY discard & replace the stock RCA interconnects it comes with, which are incredibly bad.  Seriously : even a $25 pair of Monster Cable sounded much better.

Re: the pre-amp choice : it may not seem like a big deal what a phono pre-amp does, but it is.  It needs to boost that tiny signal from the cartridge substantially - even more so for lower output moving coil cartridges.  So getting a decent phono preamp in my experience has made as much of a difference in sound quality as the cartridge & table / tonearm, particularly at the budget end of the scale. 

As for tubes vs soil state, I don't think there's a reason to choose tubes just because you have a tube integrated amp.  I happen to use a nice tube phone preamp because I got a good deal on it used.  But in the case of the Bellari, reviews seem to be mixed and if you have to invest in a decent tube + power supply to lift it, then the money would probably be better spent on something that's better out of the box. 

In solid state I'd consider the Cambridge Audio 651 or even the Parasound Zphono at comparable prices new to the Bellari.  The best bet would be to get something used, e.g. a Jolida JD9 if you want tubes, or a Soundsmith MMP3 or 4, or a Musical Surroundings Phonomena 2 in solid state.  These all retail new for double or more of the Bellari, but used should be a lot closer to the price of a new Bellari VP130 (particularly w/ mods) and sound considerably better.

Best of luck!

[btrain]

Thanks!

I'll check out the debut carbon for sure. Sounds to me like I need to allocate more $$ to the pre-amp whether it's SS or tube. I see that you suggested replacing the RCA cables for the 1.3 RPM.  Is it safe to assume that I should plan on replacing cables with the debut as well?

Hmmm... the audiophile rabbit hole is quite deep! I may just have to start with a 'budget' pre-amp of some kind and start saving for something more substantial.   
 

[Ericus Rex]

Sage advice from jarcher.  A well designed SS phono pre will likely outperform an entry-level tube phono pre.  I've read from numerous authorities that good a phono section cannot be done with only 1 tube.  You can go into Audiogon's search engine and type in your maximum budget and "phono" and get lots of options for under $400.  I see Cambridge audio, PS Audio, Music Fidelity and Parasound within the first 20 hits.

Those Zu DWs are very interesting.  Quite a marketing concept using old drivers in new cabinets.  Just curious, did you pick the Zus b/c of their efficiency?  Or have you heard them already?  I ask b/c your amp is 50 watts which may not seem like much if you're used to solid state receivers.  But 50 tube watts will rock the house with just about any speaker - unless they're SUPER inefficient.  If you like the Zu sound, then Great! but don't feel like you have to stick with them b/c they're efficient.  There are tons of good speaker options for your amp for under $1k if you're open to used.

[orientalexpress]

For the  money,u can't beat Vista Audio.if u don't like ,u can sell that in a heart beat. :thumb:check them out.


lapsan

[rollo]

For the  money,u can't beat Vista Audio.if u don't like ,u can sell that in a heart beat. :thumb:check them out.


lapsan

   Not only for the money. The Vista will hold its own against much more expensive Phono stages. The best part is Boris will build one for your cartridge. meaning the proper loading which makes all the difference. A SS phono stage with the Manley is highly recommended.


charles

[btrain]

Thanks for the info on Audiogon! I will conduct some searches. And the Vista Audio option definitely seems to fall within by budgetary constraints as well.

As far as the Zu's, I stumbled upon them  while researching speakers. Once I realized that the DW was an option, I read several reviews. Some people seem to love them and others not so much. I ended up emailing with Sean Casey at Zu. I am really considering this a 60 day audition period. Zu wil pay return shipping if you decide to go in a different direction.

My only experience with anything HiFi is a friend’s system. Manley Amp and Tannoy studio monitors like these:
http://applemanstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/tannoys.jpg

My friends are not really audiophiles in the slightest, and the technical side of things really escapes me at this point. I’m really just looking to build a frame of reference from which to start developing a deeper understanding. In that sense, I am certainly leaping before looking with the Zu’s. 

So, with regard to efficiency, I don’t fully understand it. I do know that the Stingray offers switching between Ultra Linear 40 Watt Mode and 20 Watt Triode mode. So, I guess if I end up preferring triode mode, an efficient speaker may be in order.

Given that my only experience has been with the studio monitors, I assume just utilizing a speaker versus a monitor will produce some discernible differences. I’m certainly hoping that I fall in love with the Zu’s. If that turns out not to be the case, the search will continue.

Thanks all for responding. It's very helpful for a novice such as myself to get some feedback and clarification.

[jarcher]

You'll want to upgrade the stock interconnects that come with a debut carbon as well. One of the nice things about these is that they have standard RCA jacks, which is unusual for an entry level table.

I don't think that you have to break the bank on the phono preamp - any of the previously mentioned should do a good job at reasonable cost. Just don't think you can cut corners there.  Id spend as rule of thumb as much on the phono preamp as the table / cartridge.  I guess I'm just prejudiced against the bellari as it seems like a tube buffered preamp vs a full true blue tube preamp.

As for the speakers : it's nice to have a very efficient speaker to play louder and have more dynamic headroom , but I haven't found even with my relatively inefficient totem arro speakers that I missing out in those departments with the Manley Stingray.  But then again, with that system I'm listening at more reasonable volumes.

[btrain]

I think I would ultimately prefer a true tube pre-amp. If I'm unable to do that, I'll definitely look at the suggested SS options. I'm currently an urban dweller living in a relatively small space. Hope I don't piss off the neighbors with the efficient speakers 

I probably won't be able to play music as loudly as I would like. I'm actually looking at homes for that very reason. Also looking at higher end head phones as well. 

Thanks for the rule of thumb with the pre-amp. I have a friend that bought a turntable a while back, but I think the pre-amp is built in. I may try his out as a reference point. Then when I try what I end up purchasing, I'll comprehend the difference.

[decal]

Don't overlook the Tube Box phono pres from Pro-Ject, very nice for the price. I use one with my RPM 5.1.

[jsaliga]

Thanks!

I'll check out the debut carbon for sure. Sounds to me like I need to allocate more $$ to the pre-amp whether it's SS or tube. I see that you suggested replacing the RCA cables for the 1.3 RPM.  Is it safe to assume that I should plan on replacing cables with the debut as well?

Hmmm... the audiophile rabbit hole is quite deep! I may just have to start with a 'budget' pre-amp of some kind and start saving for something more substantial.   
 

For whatever it is worth I would suggest that you buy a phono preamp that will work well with the cartridge you want to use.  My second suggestion is that you resist the temptation to spend a lot of money on a phono preamp, at least until you wade into it and get your vinyl feet wet.  A good starting point would be to not spend more than 25% of the cost of your turntable on a phono preamp on your first set up.  When I bought my first SOTA Star Sapphire turntable used for about $2,000 I paired it with a phono preamp that cost only $80, and I did not upgrade it for almost 3 years.  I would also recommend that you buy a solid state phono preamp.  Tubes can sound great but they can also be a source of noise, depending on the design and quality of tubes you are using.

I have seen a lot of people new to vinyl gripe about poor sound because they aimed way too high without really understanding the impact of their choices.  Throwing a lot of money at it will not necessarily guarantee good sound.  Making well considered choices and picking components that are a good match usually will improve your chances considerably.  After a long absence from vinyl my first rig when I came back was an inexpensive Rega turntable and a moving magnet cartridge and phono preamp, and truth be told if I had dump my current set up and go back to that Rega I could still be happy with it.  That rig made very good music.

The lesson I have learned in my vinyl system meanderings is that the choice of turntable and cartridge will influence the sound more than a phono preamp.

--Jerome

[roscoeiii]

I am a tube amp guy, but think that until you get to a higher price point a SS phono preamp is a better way to go. Lower noise, which is especially important for a phono pre. The Vista is an excellent suggestion. I have also quite liked the Musical Fidelity V-LPS phono preamp. And you can upgrade the power supply down the road (either with a MF power supply or some others, cheapest being a ~$25 Pyramid supply that you can grab on Amazon). Oh and Tone Audio (TONEPUB on Audio Circle and elsewhere) recently raved about the Lounge Audio phono stage:

http://www.tonepublications.com/MAGPDF/TA_054.pdf#page=38

[jarcher]

For whatever it is worth I would suggest that you buy a phono preamp that will work well with the cartridge you want to use.  My second suggestion is that you resist the temptation to spend a lot of money on a phono preamp, at least until you wade into it and get your vinyl feet wet.  A good starting point would be to not spend more than 25% of the cost of your turntable on a phono preamp on your first set up.  When I bought my first SOTA Star Sapphire turntable used for about $2,000 I paired it with a phono preamp that cost only $80, and I did not upgrade it for almost 3 years.  I would also recommend that you buy a solid state phono preamp.  Tubes can sound great but they can also be a source of noise, depending on the design and quality of tubes you are using.

I have seen a lot of people new to vinyl gripe about poor sound because they aimed way too high without really understanding the impact of their choices.  Throwing a lot of money at it will not necessarily guarantee good sound.  Making well considered choices and picking components that are a good match usually will improve your chances considerably.  After a long absence from vinyl my first rig when I came back was an inexpensive Rega turntable and a moving magnet cartridge and phono preamp, and truth be told if I had dump my current set up and go back to that Rega I could still be happy with it.  That rig made very good music.

The lesson I have learned in my vinyl system meanderings is that the choice of turntable and cartridge will influence the sound more than a phono preamp.

--Jerome

Sorry Jerome : pairing a $2000 TT with an $80 phono preamp was a bad idea : there's a reason why you upgraded it. You wouldn't pair a $2000 cd player or DAC with a $80 line level preamp, so why do that with a TT where the signal is even lower and requires even more boost?

Not saying you need to break the bank, but spending less than $250 on a phono preamp is inviting disappointment.

I think the problem you mentioned of people jumping into vinyl with a lot of money is not that the gear is bad or mismatched, but that they realize that digital is a lot more convenient and can often produce equally good results at lower cost. Having a good vinyl and digital playback system, this is something I struggle with.

[jsaliga]

Sorry Jerome : pairing a $2000 TT with an $80 phono preamp was a bad idea

Sorry, but you aren't qualified to judge that setup since you haven't heard it.  And unless you know me very well then you have no idea what my motives were for changing it.

My point is that it's usually less risky to make a modest start rather than jumping in with both feet and spending huge when one has no experience.  I stand by my recommendation to limit the cost of a phono preamp to no more than 25% of the cost of the turntable.  If I was going to spend $500 on a turntable and my preamp had a phono input then I would use that with a decent MM cartridge just to wade into it and get my feet wet.  Anything more than that, in my opinion, is an overreach for someone just starting out.

--Jerome

[jarcher]

What "qualification" do I need to state reasonably that a $80 phono preamp is not going to get near maximizing the potential of a $2K TT?  If you eventually upgraded from that preamp, presumably it's for sound quality reasons?

I can tell you from experience that I had a Rega Mira integrated w/ a built in MM phono stage that was highly regarded & surpassed a stand alone Rega Phono Mini that retails for $175.  Moving up to a used Sonic Frontiers tube phono preamp @ $400 was a hugh step up, even with a Pro-Ject RPM 1.3 & Sumiko Pearl cartridge (retail $500) - a budget TT / cart set up.

I haven't owned / listened to your non-named $80 preamp w/ your turntable, but giving the example above of what i have listened to lends credibility to my argument based on personal experience. Namely that a decent phono preamp is a worthwhile investment even at the "budget" scale of things.

With that said, I agree that it's probably a mistake to invest a lot of money from the beginning without first experiencing both the pros & cons of owning a vinyl playback system.  And below $1K for a TT + cartridge, I think you can do fine w/ a minimum of $250 for a phono preamp.  The Manley Stingray does not have an internal phono preamp. 

Ultimately I don't think we disagree so much, just on the degree.  I'd say 50% - 100% of the TT / Cartridge cost for a phono preamp (particularly above $1K), with $250 being the minimum investment.

[jsaliga]

You seem to want to pick nits with a setup I once used and rather enjoyed.  To each his own.  Perhaps you just want someone to argue with, but I won't indulge you any further.

Happy listening.

--Jerome

[jarcher]

Perhaps I'm making the argument too emphatically when at the OP's presumed budget we're talking a difference of a few hundred dollars tops.  But where's the fun if we don't mix it up from time to time?

[neobop]

Hi Btrain, welcome to the monkey house.  Care for a banana?   

Supplied 2M Red to start?

I've been researching inexpensive phono stages lately.  I need one for my alternate tree branch, err room and I don't have much money for this. 

According to what I've read on three or four forums, the little Vista takes on all comers at less than $1K.  I'd have one by now except I had to get my car fixed, seriously.  The Lounge Audio is MM only with fixed gain and loading (50K) and the Vista has a ton of options for both gain and loading and will also accept low output carts.  I haven't heard either one, but it seems to me the Vista is much more versatile.  You'll be able to fine tune it for virtually any cart and it should see you through many years of service as your playback system evolves.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114404.0

neo

[btrain]

Hi Btrain, welcome to the monkey house.  Care for a banana?   

Lol! Thanks for the warm welcome to the jungle!

I have looked a little at the Vista option based on a recommendation earlier in the thread. Decisions, Decisions. My TV just stopped working today out of nowhere. Looking into whether I will be repairing or replacing. This could take a substantial bite out of the audio budget. Uggh!

Don't overlook the Tube Box phono pres from Pro-Ject, very nice for the price. I use one with my RPM 5.1.

Is the tube box a true tube pre-amp? Just curious. I have browsed that option as well. I ask because jarcher mentioned the Bellari not being a true blue tube amp. How does one know the difference?


Thanks everyone for all of the feedback (be it slightly heated or not).... It's very helpful to weigh different options and see different opinions from people who already have the experience with a multitude of different components.

Can't wait to start piecing together my set up and join you!
 

[JackD]

I am for the Vista. In fact I liked mine so much I bought a second one.  If you go in that direction I would recommend that you have Boris change the standard Capacitance from 150pf to 50pf like I did. A lot of the current cartridges prefer lower capacitance and you can always add it, but you can't take it away.