[Oswego0522]

I have been working to improve the bass in my new music stereo setup (the room is fairly large).

I moved my Dali Epicon 6 speakers into my office—roughly 17’ x 16’ x 8’, with hardwood floors—and hooked them up to my old Integra 40.1 AV receiver and my old Denon 2800 DVD player. This was much easier than moving my Bryston equipment with the speakers.

I figured if the speakers had decent bass in the smaller room then I would know that it was the room size/acoustics in my living room that was killing the bass.

After setting the speakers up in my office, I cannot say that I really noticed a meaningful improvement in the bass. Certain drum beats and bass guitar picks continued to sound like an afterthought (too subtle, too much in the background), rather than a key element of the music.

I then found a bass adjustment on my AV receiver and cranked up the bass setting. Voila, I had what I consider to be decent bass. However, I have no idea what this means—that is, does the speakers producing decent bass only when the AV receiver bass adjustment is cranked up point towards a shortcoming with a particular element of my Dali/Bryston setup?

My living room setup: Dali Epicon 6 speakers, 4BSST2, BP17, BDA-2, BDP-2.

[Mag]

I find it hard to believe that you lack bass with that set up! Perhaps you need a Judas Priest album like Nostradamus to see if it shakes the foundation.

Seriously, perhaps you're not into clean bass and need tone controls on your pre-amp. I had a friend over that said there was not enough bass. I thought how can there not be enough bass, then I adjusted the bass tone control +3 and I got the okay sign.

[werd]

Thats not bass but bass distortion. By adjusting your tone controls you are just applying more or less distortion.

[James Tanner]

I have been working to improve the bass in my new music stereo setup (the room is fairly large).

I moved my Dali Epicon 6 speakers into my office—roughly 17’ x 16’ x 8’, with hardwood floors—and hooked them up to my old Integra 40.1 AV receiver and my old Denon 2800 DVD player. This was much easier than moving my Bryston equipment with the speakers.

I figured if the speakers had decent bass in the smaller room then I would know that it was the room size/acoustics in my living room that was killing the bass.

After setting the speakers up in my office, I cannot say that I really noticed a meaningful improvement in the bass. Certain drum beats and bass guitar picks continued to sound like an afterthought (too subtle, too much in the background), rather than a key element of the music.

I then found a bass adjustment on my AV receiver and cranked up the bass setting. Voila, I had what I consider to be decent bass. However, I have no idea what this means—that is, does the speakers producing decent bass only when the AV receiver bass adjustment is cranked up point towards a shortcoming with a particular element of my Dali/Bryston setup?

My living room setup: Dali Epicon 6 speakers, 4BSST2, BP17, BDA-2, BDP-2.

Hi,

Assuming the loudspeaker is capable of low bass without distortion the amount of bass generated in a room is a function of the speaker placement, the listener position and the dimensions and boundaries of the specific room.  Thats why as you move around the room you will hear areas of high bass levels and areas of low bass levels. 

The trick is finding the place in the room to place the speakers where they generate the flattest bass possible at the maximum amplitude at the prefered listening position. Fiddling with tone controls is not the answer as it is a bandaid approach to a more serious room problem.  Thats why some prefer using a Subwoofer and small speaker monitors because they can place the main left and right speakers where they perform their best for quality imaging and sound stage and put the woofer where it generates the maximum flattest bass at the listening position.  In fact 2 Subwoofers will even out and tame most bass room problems without the need for equalization or tone controls.

I would play around with speaker and listening position if you have the flexibility.  Maybe post a picture of your room and we can try and suggest alternatives.

james

[Oswego0522]

Regarding the comment "maybe you're not be into clean bass", you could be right. My reference as I began investigating a new stereo setup for the room below was listening to Aerial 9s in a small audition room powered by the Bryston equipment that I now have--lots of bass. Additionally, even the Dali vendor's tech guy, who I paid to position the speakers after my initial dissatisfaction with the lack of bass, said that these speakers should be outputting more bass.

I am limited to placing the speakers where the small, half-round glass table is located, and I can only place a subwoofer in the in the only corner that exists on the wall--the left hand side adjacent to a window...the right side is a wide opening flowing to another part of the house. Ironically, I purchased all this equipment to avoid placing a sub in this room.

I would happily pay a professional to visit the house to determine whether my current sound is accurate and, if it is not, to say what must be done to optimize the sound. The Dali dealer is local, but wants me to buy a Naim setup from them to improve the sound (he constantly trashes Bryston) and the Byrston dealer is out-of-state. Other vendors are not interested unless they can sell more equipment to me--understandably, they are not interested in making my current equipment sound better.

[Diamond Dog]

 That's a lovely home you have there. Are room treatments out of the question? Brian From GIK was a huge help in assisting me to get more from my system in a room where nearly everything was conspiring against me. One of my main concerns was getting more bottom end out of a system which should have
( on paper ) provided terrific sound...Massive improvement for minimal outlay compared to a big equipment buy. WAF is easy to achieve here, though...what a gal !

D.D.   

[werd]

Looks like your suffering from a bad case of the invisible stereo.   .

[James Tanner]

WOW what a great space! 

Have you ever measured the low bass output at the listening position with a Real Time Analyser or even a CD with low bass tones and a level meter?  What is the 3dB rolloff point specified on the speaker you have?

Without sounding biased buying new electronics is not the answer - it is a room speaker interface issue.  The fact that you moved the speakers to a much smaller room with no appreciable bass output would indicate to me that the speaker is not generating much very low bass in the room.  It says 35Hz in the specs which is generally the -3dB down point so it is probably in the 45Hz range in your space.  Try the CD bass tone test and see how low they go down to.

james

[So There]

Could there be phase issues?

Rich
______________
Whiney Napa Valley

[James Tanner]

Could there be phase issues?

Rich
______________
Whiney Napa Valley

Hi Rich

I assume you mean making sure the left and right speaker are in phase?  That is easy to test for - just reverse one of the speaker cables on one of the speakers. Good suggestion

James

[werd]

All great jokes aside, it sounds like your experiencing an impedance mis match at the volume you are trying to achieve (along with incorrect speaker placement). Try flipping the gain switch on the back of the 4b and then apply the volume.  One of the biggest pre amp mistakes is not shopping for preamps that perform at sound volumes people listen at. They go in and buy a pre amp listening to it in the store cranked up and think its going to perform like that at home at lower volumes.

[Oswego0522]

Thank you for the feedback and suggestions! Sorry, room photos are old real estate photos pre-stereo (just bought the house in February of this year).

I am a novice at this, but have a sound level meter and will run a test this weekend and will also try "flipping the gain switch". I am open to room acoustic enhancements, but need a professional to layout what should be added or changed.

A Dali national sales rep came by the house recently to check out the speakers (he also reps Naim). He meaningfully changed the position of the speakers from where the vendor's tech had placed them and then ran the speakers with a Naim setup. He spoke of setting up his laptop--I guess to do a real time analyzer test???--but never did. No meaningful change in bass output resulted from their test setup.

In the end, the Dali rep and the person who sold the speakers to me raved about the great sound throughout the room, but said that if I wanted deep bass that I would have to upgrade to the Epicon 8s ($20k) or integrate a sub.

As they left, I assumed that it was my room that was the problem. However, having just placed them in my office without a noticeable change in bass output, I am left to believe that the weak link is the speakers.

Regarding being out of phase, I would think that the Dali rep, who also ran his own speaker cables when setting the speakers up with Naim equipment, would have detected if they were out of phase???

I demoed the speakers (they were floor demos) at the vendor's store (a cavernous big room--at least 20' x 35' 14'). When I asked the salesperson, "where is the bass", he replied that their large room killed the bass, but that I would have plenty of bass in my living room. I also relied on the Absolute Sound review (April 2013) of these speakers which spoke of almost too much bass in the 18' x 22' room in which they were set up. No question that I made a mistake in buying something that I never heard produce the sound I was looking for.

[Buseto]

@Out of phase

It's easy to check if the speakers are out of phase. Buy a cd with test tones. One of the items is phase testing.
Try it and you can hear if the speakers are in or out of phase.

I have such a cd quite a while and find it very useful. Sometimes I change a thing, have to reconnect one thing or other. And after that I run several tests.

[Oswego0522]

My old Radio Shack digital sound level meter appears to be non-functional (I cannot get the screen to read anything but "Lo"). Any recommendations as to a good replacement or should I pick up a Real Time Analyzer setup?

The Dali rep left a CD for me which contains a track of a Fender guitar playing first out of the right speaker and then the left speaker. It also plays both speakers with a muddled and then clean sound. Per the instructions within the soundtrack, the speakers appear to be functioning correctly.

[James Tanner]

My old Radio Shack digital sound level meter appears to be non-functional (I cannot get the screen to read anything but "Lo"). Any recommendations as to a good replacement or should I pick up a Real Time Analyzer setup?

The Dali rep left a CD for me which contains a track of a Fender guitar playing first out of the right speaker and then the left speaker. It also plays both speakers with a muddled and then clean sound. Per the instructions within the soundtrack, the speakers appear to be functioning correctly.

I use the Radio Shack digital meter but even if you just have a cd or source that will play individual bass frequency down to 20Hz you can measure how low the speakers are going.

James

[srb]

It's easy to check if the speakers are out of phase. Buy a cd with test tones. One of the items is phase testing.

Download these 6 test files from AudioCheck.net
Stereo Polarity (Phase) Sound Test Files

Steve

[Oswego0522]

I had the meter on a tripod at listening distance from the speakers and the display would only read "Lo", which is what it defaults to 2 seconds after being turned on.

I just put the devices within 1 ft. of the speaker at moderate volume, and I am now getting a digital readout. I guess it is was user error when I said that it was not working.

Sorry for the layman's question: if I understand correctly, I need to find a CD that incrementally plays different tones. As I play such a track/CD, I then measure the dB of each tone.

At what distance from the speakers should I place the meter and can someone suggest a link/website on which I can learn how to decipher the results?

I will download phase  test file onto a thumbdrive to run through my BDP.

Again, thank you for the continued feedback!

[James Tanner]

Just get a cd or source with individual test tones 100Hz 90,80,70,60,50,40,30,20.  Then measure with the volume at about 80 with the 100Hz tone. Play each tone and write down the measurement on the level meter.  In a perfect set up each tone would measure 80 DB.

James

[srb]

When the Radio Shack meter was calibrated against professional sound level equipment it was found that bass frequencies measure lower than actual.  When the meter was set to C weighting with 1/3 octave pink noise as the source, the correction offsets were typically

10Hz     +20.5 dB   
12.5Hz  +16.5 dB
16Hz     +11.5 dB
20Hz       +7.5 dB
25Hz       +5 dB
31.5Hz    +3 dB
40Hz       +2.5 dB
50Hz       +1.5 dB
63Hz       +1.5 dB
80Hz       +1.5 dB
100Hz     +2 dB

Steve

[*Scotty*]

Your Radio Shack meter, if it has a digital read out, may be indicating a LOW BATTERY condition. Try replacing the battery with a new one.
Scotty