[fastfred]

Fellow members:

In September of 2012 I posted a topic called (The great Debate speaker wire, voodoo/pseudo science, vs. common sense ).  I learned a number of lessons from the responses. One of the most important was from Elizabeth a full member; the lesson was that "cables act like "tone controls" and one of her most important comments was "think for your self don't let peer pressure do your thinking for you." In other words keep an open mind. So since Sept 2012 these thoughts and others have been rattling around in my brain/case. Roger's advice on the subject was to "purchase a reasonably priced neutral sounding cable." In a later posting on the same thread Elizabeth noted that "as tone controls started to disappear from high end equipment, the appearance of speaker wire & interconnect products began to appear in direct proportion." So to cut to the chase I'm looking for an outboard tone control to include in my system.
I know that in most hi/end circles tone controls are frowned upon. However they can be useful for example when listening at low levels so as not to wake family members. Another reason is to help poorly recorded cd's & vinyl to sound passable. I spoke to roger about this & he suggested that I post this topic. To the point, any one interested in a high quality tone control project from Roger please weigh in.

Remember this isn't a debate on the pros and cons of tone controls, but rather a survey on who would like to see an outboard tone control offered as a Music Reference product. I know that my system needs one.

                                                   ...................... fastfred

[FullRangeMan]

I would not like to see a standalone tone control. I prefer use a suited cable if I need this effect.
Some small tube audiophiles even use thin solid speaker cable to raise the impedance the amp see.

[Ericus Rex]

I'm able to get the sound I like from judicious component matching and tube rolling so I would not be interested in tone controls.

Digital source software, like Amarra, has tone controls built into the program.  If you do the majority of your listen that way (off a server) that would be the most economical and easy way to adjust your eq.  All the hi-end tone control units I've heard of have been very expensive.

[steve f]

Hi fastfred, I'm in another camp on this one.

 I know a lot of people chose wire, change equipment, and do all sorts of mods to their systems. Usually they are correcting "wrongs" with more mistakes to get their sound system to sound acceptable, thereby engaging in a never ending battle. It never works well, and gets expensive.

So my vote is for neither. I strongly recommend an equalizer instead of tone controls or wire games. I strongly suspect that Roger would choose that route also.

Steve. 

[rollo]

  A great idea but not easy to implement for a reasonable price IMO. However I can be proved wrong, I hope by Roger.


charles

[harley52]

We aren't talking the kind of tone controls from 30 yrs. ago. Build it Roger, along with a balance control. Some day most everyone will need one and it's no fun trying to find a preamp/DAC with one that meets your needs.

[fastfred]

We aren't talking the kind of tone controls from 30 yrs. ago. Build it Roger, along with a balance control. Some day most everyone will need one and it's no fun trying to find a preamp/DAC with one that meets your needs.

Thanks Harley that's one vote & I totally agree with, the balance control option as well. Many modern pre/amps don't have one............... I copied & pasted an edited version of my original post because some of the posts aren't really on topic. Respectfully people, especially, people not interested in a tone control are posting. They should  read the last sentences written in the original post. I was asked by Roger to post a topic which would determine whether an outboard tone control would be a viable project for Music Reference. Thank you again for your support.
And thanks to  rollo, and Steve F, as well an eq could also be a solution.

                                                             ......................... fastfred ( Fred Petersen )

p.s. here's the edited original post!

Fellow members:

In September of 2012 I posted a topic called (The great Debate speaker wire, voodoo/pseudo science, vs. common sense ).  I learned a number of lessons from the responses. One of the most important was from Elizabeth a full member; the lesson was that "cables act like "tone controls" and one of her most important comments was "think for your self don't let peer pressure do your thinking for you." In other words keep an open mind.
I know that in most hi/end circles tone controls are frowned upon. However they can be useful for example when listening at low levels so as not to wake family members. Another reason is to help poorly recorded cd's & vinyl to sound passable. I spoke to roger about this & he suggested that I post this topic. To the point, any one interested in a high quality tone control project from Roger please weigh in. >>>

<<<Remember this isn't a debate on the pros and cons of tone controls, but rather a survey on who would like to see an outboard tone control offered as a Music Reference product. I know that my system needs one.

                                                   ...................... fastfred

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Tone controls are a hot topic and I thank fastfred for bringing it up. I currently have one tone control in my system that I find very useful and to my knowledge a control like this has never been offered. It is a flat shelf from 80 Hz down with a very steep (24 db/octave) low pass cutoff at 80 Hz. This allows me to control the bass up and down several dB without affecting anything else. The main anything I am concerned is male vocals and lower mid-range instruments that get very thick and muddy when boosted. You don't want to boost Leon Redbone's voice above 80 Hz. This frequency could be a bit higher or lower however not easily switch selected nor is the exact frequency that important.

Add to that a gentle treble control whose hinge point could easily be switch selected at 1,2,4,6,8,10 KHz. Boost and cut would be at a 6 dB/octave rate. Since there is only one capacitor in this passive control it is easily switch selected.

These choices are made from entirely new information I have gathered in my own research and have not been implemented before. Standard bass and treble controls are nothing like this and in comparison are rather poor solutions. They do muddy up sound and well deserve their bad reputation in high end audio as do equalizers. The problem with EQs are the number of parts and signal paths encountered. By their very nature they are resonators. They are generally implemented with an great number of ICs. There is one IC for each slider in a graphic EQ and several for each filter in a parametric. In addition there are IC input and output buffers and lots of slider pots in the signal path. For people who can barely trust one volume control, how can they even consider those.

Without disclosing too much of my circuitry I will say that the main signal can be handled entirely passively and only the frequencies below 80 Hz need be acted on actively. Therefore we will not and any active circuitry or potentiometers in the midrange. All the tone controlling is done in a side chain where the midrange is unaffected.  The unit can be built with one tube of gain and become your line preamp or it can have a slight loss as many stytems already have too much gain.

Here are a few references to pitch frequencies http://www.seventhstring.com/resources/notefrequencies.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_(voice_type)

[fastfred]

Tone controls are a hot topic and I thank fastfred for bringing it up. I currently have one tone control in my system that I find very useful and to my knowledge a control like this has never been offered. It is a flat shelf from 80 Hz down with a very steep (24 db/octave) low pass cutoff at 80 Hz. This allows me to control the bass up and down several dB without affecting anything else. The main thing I am concerned with is male vocals and lower mid-range instruments that get very thick and muddy when boosted. You don't want to boost Leon Redbone's voice above 80 Hz. This frequency could be a bit higher or lower however, it is not easily switch selected nor is the exact frequency that important.

Add to that a gentle treble control whose hinge point could easily be switch selected at 1,2,4,6,8,10 KHz. Boost and cut would be at a 6 dB/octave rate. Since there is only one capacitor in this passive control it is easily switch selected.

These choices are made from entirely new information I have gathered in my own research and have not been implemented before. Standard bass and treble controls are nothing like this and in comparison are rather poor solutions. They do muddy up sound and well deserve their bad reputation in high end audio as do equalizers. The problem with EQs are the number of parts and signal paths encountered. By their very nature they are resonators. They are generally implemented with an great number of ICs. There is one IC for each slider in a graphic EQ and several for each filter in a parametric. In addition there are IC input and output buffers and lots of slider pots in the signal path. For people who can barely trust one volume control, how can they even consider those.

Without disclosing too much of my circuitry I will say that the main signal can be handled entirely passively and only the frequencies below 80 Hz need be acted on actively. Therefore we will not add any active circuitry or potentiometers in the midrange. All the tone controlling is done in a side chain where the midrange is unaffected.  The unit can be built with one tube of gain and become your line preamp or it can have a slight loss as many systems already have too much gain.

Here are a few references to pitch frequencies http://www.seventhstring.com/resources/notefrequencies.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_(voice_type)

Thanks very much Roger:

 for your attention to this. I'm going to p.m. you with some other questions I have.

                                  .................. Fred

[airhead]

Is this "tone control" similar to what you have in the crossover you provide with your subwoofer?  I am very pleased with mine, although I rarely change the bass by more than 2 db or so.  The midrange, including
baritone voice (eg. Dietrich-Fischer-Dieskau) is unaffected. 

On the other hand, several people are quite excited about something more elaborate: DSP units that allow one to flatten peaks in the bass due to room effects.  People with subwoofers could conceivably use these
after the low pass filter and thus avoid affecting the upper frequencies (although some reviewers are claiming the DSP could improve these frequencies as well).  It is true that room effects can have a big effect on the bass:
I've heard the same band sound quite different in different venues.  So I'm not convinced that getting rid of the effect of one's own room is so important.  Thoughts?

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Is this "tone control" similar to what you have in the crossover you provide with your subwoofer?  I am very pleased with mine, although I rarely change the bass by more than 2 db or so.  The midrange, including
baritone voice (eg. Dietrich-Fischer-Dieskau) is unaffected. 

On the other hand, several people are quite excited about something more elaborate: DSP units that allow one to flatten peaks in the bass due to room effects.  People with subwoofers could conceivably use these
after the low pass filter and thus avoid affecting the upper frequencies (although some reviewers are claiming the DSP could improve these frequencies as well).  It is true that room effects can have a big effect on the bass:
I've heard the same band sound quite different in different venues.  So I'm not convinced that getting rid of the effect of one's own room is so important.  Thoughts?

Yes, this is based on my use of the crossover system you have with the addition of a treble control. I think that people in our (tube) camp are not interested in putting a DSP in their system. I certainly am not. For all the work we do to have a simple signal path that would really throw a monkey-wrench in the system. I am wary of fixing room problems in that way as they require putting a microphone somewhere and letting the system flatten itself. Then you move the microphone (or yourself) and the problem is somewhere else. I just think we don't need that kind of thing going on. In my opinion good sound comes from simple signal paths and simple speakers with good physics. All that other stuff just clouds the issue and the sound.

What fastfred and I are proposing is something that allows the listener to adjust two things that vary greatly with listening level. Those being the perception of bass and treble at low levels and our desire for more or less as per the recording. There are some recordings that just have too much or too little bass. Should we suffer for the bad taste of some recording engineers? I have some CDs that are absolutely unplayable unless I reduce the bass because the recording engineer did something stupid. An example that comes to mind is Emmylou Harris Wrecking Ball.

For those who are unfamiliar with how the ear responds at different volume levels here are the Fletcher-Munson curves.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contours

[fastfred]

Yes, this is based on my use of the crossover system you have with the addition of a treble control. I think that people in our (tube) camp are not interested in putting a DSP in their system. I certainly am not. For all the work we do to have a simple signal path that would really throw a monkey-wrench in the system. I am wary of fixing room problems in that way as they require putting a microphone somewhere and letting the system flatten itself. Then you move the microphone (or yourself) and the problem is somewhere else. I just think we don't need that kind of thing going on. In my opinion good sound comes from simple signal paths and simple speakers with good physics. All that other stuff just clouds the issue and the sound.

What fastfred and I are proposing is something that allows the listener to adjust two things that vary greatly with listening level. Those being the perception of bass and treble at low levels and our desire for more or less as per the recording. There are some recordings that just have too much or too little bass. Should we suffer for the bad taste of some recording engineers? I have some CDs that are absolutely unplayable unless I reduce the bass because the recording engineer did something stupid. An example that comes to mind is Emmylou Harris Wrecking Ball.

For those who are unfamiliar with how the ear responds at different volume levels here are the Fletcher-Munson curves.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contours

It appears as if you've decided on the design approach here Roger & it seems to me the most logical way of dealing with this issue. Not wanting to apply pressure here, is this something you would be willing to do onesie twosies or do you need a minimum number of orders. I'm going to pm you about the other issue we were talking about.

                                ........................ thanks

                                             ........................ fred petersen ( fastfred )

[rbwalt]

do we need tone controls? why are they needed in the first place? lets see maybe ones speakers are of poor design or maybe their electronics are poor also. a band aid solution to equipment that maybe lacking in certain areas.

these are certain things to ponder about.

[Napalm]

do we need tone controls? why are they needed in the first place? lets see maybe ones speakers are of poor design or maybe their electronics are poor also. a band aid solution to equipment that maybe lacking in certain areas.

try these:

- your ears are of poor design and their perception of tonal balance is dependent on the audition volume http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves
- most of your recordings are poor also
- your room acoustics are maybe lacking in certain areas

[FullRangeMan]

One thing is sure, audiophiles hate tone controls and music lovers like them, mainly for listen with cheap speakers.

[fastfred]

do we need tone controls? why are they needed in the first place? lets see maybe ones speakers are of poor design or maybe their electronics are poor also. a band aid solution to equipment that maybe lacking in certain areas.

these are certain things to ponder about.

With due respect if you are not interested in having Roger build you a tone control. (Which by the way there a few of us here who are interested), Why are you responding to this thread. I mean no disrespect here, I don't know how to make it any clearer, this isn't a thread discussing the pros & cons of equalization, tone controls, this is a thread for people who are aware of these flaws, & are looking for a viable solution which does the least harm to the music, & hopefully doesn't break the bank. Some history.......Because of  a personal message to Roger, I was asked by him to post this topic. And I believe he has a solution in mind for solving it which he's working on.

To be clear I and many other audiophiles have large record & cd collections in the case of cd's more so than with vinyl. I have in my 1000 plus collection many cd's from when cd's first went on sale. Of those 1000 cd's I probably have close 250 cd's which sound thin and veiled ( transistor radio like if you will). So a double whammy these titles are impossible to replace and impossible to listen to as well. I've listened to some S.A.C.D remasters & they sound just as bad. So here's my dilemna, do I take a chance sell my old cd's buy remasters which are questionable or do I by a tone control which gives a fuller sound & restores the balance between the bass & treble. Another issue is the trend in the recording industry to compress the feces out of the music. So when listening at home you need to play the music really loud to hear what was going on in the studio that day which sounds great at that volume. Wife and kids are in bed or perhaps I'm single living in an apartment & have to turn the music down. Turn it down 3 notches & it sounds like the life has been sucked out of the music. So now you have the same problem with the redbook cd as you had with your moldy oldies. Same solution tone control. I'm not, and I'm sure those of us in favour of tone controls aren't advocating everybody change over to tone controls. If you were to go to a recording studio & watch the amount of processing done to every recording released today it would blow your mind. Especially when you realize that most current music is mixed, eq'd, etc. for people listening to headphones or in the car. Is that what you want to hear on your expensive system.

[mix4fix]

How would you used it/hook it up?

What kind of control would you have?

[fastfred]

How would you used it/hook it up?

What kind of control would you have?

Roger is in the process of deciding how to implement it. I suggest rereading all of Roger's posts in this thread to get an idea of what's being proposed. I'm hoping it's going to be an outboard unit you can use between a pre/amp and a power amp or if you have an integrated amp in a tape monitor or effects loop.

[mix4fix]

Would it be solid state ot tube?

What kind of price point are we talking?

[Napalm]

One thing is sure, audiophiles hate tone controls and music lovers like them, mainly for listen with cheap speakers.

Music lovers: are seeking to listen to a huge variety of records through the same equipment

Audiophiles: are seeking to listen to the same record through a huge variety of equipment

For the first category, tone controls are useful. For the second category, they completely spoil the pleasure of altering tone through replacing equipment.