[AJinFLA]

The german magazine stereoplay has some measurements of ATC 100's. I gave a link above.

My German isn't so strong.
One appears to be some on/off axis, but I'm not quite sure whats going on there.
The other seems to be distortion sweeps at 85-100db, deliberately bandwidth limited to 5k to hide the impending disaster above from the direct radiator dome. Did you notice that fact?

cheers,

AJ

[Pete Schumacher]

I'm with you here AJ.  The posted measurements in that German mag don't show anything particularly astounding, at least not to the point where this particular speaker is any kind of world beater.  The 8" 2-way I posted shows superior off axis performance and equally good high SPL (100dB) performance, if not better, in terms of distortion.  And the axial response of the ATC doesn't have the linearity that would warrant a letter home to mother.

It is interesting that you can see the rapidly rising high power distortion that is mysteriously cut off at 5KHz.  Then again, harmonic distortion of a 5KHz signal has limited significance anyway when you consider that the products are all above 10KHz.

[Freo-1]

Pete,

The plot you show of the two way shows extremely good dispersion. I agree with everything you say. ATC are not on another superior level but ATC designs fulfill a niche market very well. The Tang Band 3 inch is an excellent driver but I doubt it can play as loud cleanly as ATC's Super 3inch dome (nor should one expect that given its modest price). ATC excel at clean sound at higher SPL a niche that studios like.

They sure do, and a humble and sincere thanks for your valuable insight.  I absolutely love the SCM-19's with a good subwoofer.  I have heard LOTS of speakers over the years, from modest to ones that will break the bank account.  I can say without question these have been the most ACCURATE speakers I've ever heard.  I only wish I could afford the ASCM50's, but in my moderately modest living environment,  these provide intense musical enjoyment.  Here's a really interesting thing with them:  Electronics as varied as Pass Labs, Yamaha, Custom made tubes, or even a restored Pioneer SX-1250 all sound great with this.   
 
I also agree with comments about music.  Since I listen to mostly Classical, with some jazz/blues mixed in, they work well with those.  My "guess" is that a lot of speaker manufactures only wish they could employ their drives in their design and still make a profit.   

[Shadorne]

The measurements are absolutely excellent with distortion being more than 50 db down through the mid range at 100 db SPL (not sure if this was at 2 meters or 1 meter). The speaker is actually rated at 115 db SPL continuous at 1 meter. The data does not show where the speaker really shines (at extremely high SPL's). The other review I linked to specifically states "A single ATC 300 cabinet will deliver an astonishing 121 dB SPL at less than .3% THD (with an additional 10 dB of headroom available!), an important consideration for loud pop music monitoring."

I don't recall saying this was a "world beater". I stand by my statements that ATC characteristics are defined by critically damped bass, wide even dispersion across the mid range, and the ability to play significantly louder (while maintaining low levels of distortion and low compression) when compared to other speakers. These characteristics fulfill a highly desired niche in pro studio applications but they certainly do not make ATC a "world beater".

The ATC design has not changed much over 30 years (incremental improvements in Amp Packs, tweeters, SL drivers etc). It would be very odd indeed if audio professionals continue to buy them considering their measurements are "nothing to write mother about", as you claim. The fact is that measurements do not really tell you everything - especially useless in this case as speakers are never tested at the live concert sound levels that large ATC's are capable of. The user list I gave in a previous post is probably a more useful indication to readers of this thread.

[Freo-1]

The measurements are absolutely excellent with distortion being more than 50 db down through the mid range at 100 db SPL. The speaker is actually rated at 115 db SPL continuous. The data does not show where the speaker really shines (at extremely high SPL's). The other review I linked to specifically states "A single ATC 300 cabinet will deliver an astonishing 121 dB SPL at less than .3% THD (with an additional 10 dB of headroom available!), an important consideration for loud pop music monitoring."

I don't recall saying this was a "world beater". I stand by my statements that ATC characteristics are defined by critically damped bass, wide even dispersion across the mid range, and the ability to play significantly louder (while maintaining low levels of distortion and low compression) when compared to other speakers. These characteristics fulfill a highly desired niche in pro studio applications but they certainly do not make ATC a "world beater".

The ATC design has not changed much over 30 years (incremental improvements in Amp Packs, tweeters, SL drivers etc). It would be very odd indeed if audio professionals continue to buy them considering their measurements are "nothing to write mother about", as you claim. The fact is that measurements do not really tell you everything - especially useless in this case as speakers are never tested at the live concert sound levels that large ATC's are capable of. The user list I gave in a previous post is probably a more useful indication to readers of this thread.

Well stated.  I highly encourage the readers to just go out and listen to any of the ATC with the SL driver(s).   You will not be disappointed. 

[Pete Schumacher]

The measurements are absolutely excellent with distortion being more than 50 db down through the mid range at 100 db SPL (not sure if this was at 2 meters or 1 meter). The speaker is actually rated at 115 db SPL continuous at 1 meter. The data does not show where the speaker really shines (at extremely high SPL's). The other review I linked to specifically states "A single ATC 300 cabinet will deliver an astonishing 121 dB SPL at less than .3% THD (with an additional 10 dB of headroom available!), an important consideration for loud pop music monitoring."

I don't recall saying this was a "world beater". I stand by my statements that ATC characteristics are defined by critically damped bass, wide even dispersion across the mid range, and the ability to play significantly louder (while maintaining low levels of distortion and low compression) when compared to other speakers. These characteristics fulfill a highly desired niche in pro studio applications but they certainly do not make ATC a "world beater".

The ATC design has not changed much over 30 years (incremental improvements in Amp Packs, tweeters, SL drivers etc). It would be very odd indeed if audio professionals continue to buy them considering their measurements are "nothing to write mother about", as you claim. The fact is that measurements do not really tell you everything - especially useless in this case as speakers are never tested at the live concert sound levels that large ATC's are capable of. The user list I gave in a previous post is probably a more useful indication to readers of this thread.

When you look at the posted response, you'll see a 5dB droop from 100Hz to approximately 7KHz, and then a 5dB peak at 10KHz where it then levels out to 20KHz.  That's what I meant when I said nothing to write home about.  While it is smooth, it is hardly "flat" and the off axis response is a bit lumpy to say the least, at least according to the posted data in the link provided.

But all that really matters is does the owner like what he hears.  And if the owner is a happy camper, what more needs to be said.

[Russell Dawkins]

These ATC speakers, particularly the SCM100A are simply the best speakers that I have heard for the money. They can produce dynamics like no other speaker in its price range and sound as good at crazy spl levels. I have yet to hear any distortion and compression from them and I have owned speakers costing twice as much from TAD etc

There is no better monitor or Hi-end speaker period.

Those are rather strong statements! Have you heard K+H (now Neumann) for example?

Here's part of an email I got in 2009 while researching for studio monitors for myself, detailing a listening session in Slovenia amongst some seasoned engineers and comparing ATC and K+H (English is not the native tongue, so make allowances):

"Right yesterday one of my friends who owns one of the major studios in Slovenia wanted to hear K&H monitors. So another friend of mine (who is a comercialist for the distribution company for Sennheiser, Neumann and K&H) brought demo pair of O300's and O410's to check them out. So this was my second chance to make a comparison between O300's and O410's and also against three other monitors that were in a studio: Dynaudio bm6a, ATC SCM50 (not 150) and KRK 9000B.

We all preferred K&H monitors without a doubt. All the others were brighter, and less linear and more hyped. Klein & Hummels sounded natural, without hype and still open and detailed. ATC's were over exaggerated in the high mids for my taste, they were very detalied but they emphasized the content, that is not very important and that cannot be heard on most of the systems. They were also missing the lows. Dynaudios were sweet, but bright as hell, missing low mids and their imaging was a little weird. They sounded very compressed and you couldn't seperate the instruments in a mix very well. KRK's weren't in the same league as the others but were great for blasting rock'n'roll.

So in the end we really preferred K&H by far overall. And once again it was obvious that O300 is probably the greatest NEARFIELD but now I can say with confidence that O410 really is the greatest speaker I have heard and really worth the money if your room can tolerate it. It simply sounds like...like the source. Aleš, the studio owner, decided to sell the ATC's and get a surround system of K&H 3x O410's (L-C-R) + 2xO810's + 2xO300's (RL-RR). I cannot wait to hear this setup being perfectly integrated into the place."

...and in the next email:

"Comparison done yesterday was not done in the same studio and not by the same person. But they both have their own studios and both have ATC's. Aleš (the one who is gonna buy K&H surround and really has professional facility) has SCM50 and Beno (the one where I heard O410 for the first time) has SCM 150. I have to agree I like SCM 50 more than SCM 150, but I still like O410 much much more. And yes, they are much cheaper. They are even cheaper than SCM 20 in our country. I think ATC monitors are seriously overpriced. They are great but also three way Genelecs are great as any monitor above 5000 EUR/pair. But O410 would simply have been the monitor of my choice if my place was big enough. It is the most natural and linear. Yes it would have also been a great monitor to listen to music and enjoy when you have finished recording."

And then there is ME-Geithain and Strauss Elektroakustik.  I would describe ATC as one of, if not the best of the well known speakers (thanks to some expense given to marketing) - but not necessarily the end of the road.

[Donald]

But all that really matters is does the owner like what he hears.  And if the owner is a happy camper, what more needs to be said.

Well said Pete. That pretty much sums it up.

[AJinFLA]

The measurements are absolutely excellent with distortion being more than 50 db down through the mid range at 100 db SPL (not sure if this was at 2 meters or 1 meter).

Shadorne,
Anything can be cherry picked and framed to look "absolutely excellent", while evading the bad. What about the skyrocketing distortion above 4k? Benign? Or an unequivocal sign of direct radiator tweeter distress?
I thought you stated earlier low distortion numbers may be somewhat meaningless perceptually? Now they aren't?
How are they absolutely excellent vs other $30 (40?)k active monitors? Where is the contextual distortion data?
The apparently poor FR? Not audible?

The speaker is actually rated at 115 db SPL continuous at 1 meter. The data does not show where the speaker really shines (at extremely high SPL's).

With the tweeter already under duress at 100db? 15db more power will make it "shine"? Really?

The other review I linked to specifically states "A single ATC 300 cabinet will deliver an astonishing 121 dB SPL at less than .3% THD (with an additional 10 dB of headroom available!), an important consideration for loud pop music monitoring."

Yes, with zero collaborating data. And complete BS with a direct radiator tweeter, possibly the same one unraveling at 100db! 21db more power won't make it "shine". Pop speaker or not.

The ATC design has not changed much over 30 years

Finally something we agree on.
But knowledge of psycho-acoustics and small room acoustic have. That is their bane. And reason why the actual objective data, directly conflicts with the intonations.

cheers,

AJ

[Shadorne]

AJ,

You asked for data and then you say anything can be made to look good.

It is clear to me you know a lot about ATC such that you are convinced they are at worst a bad design or at best nothing special.

Hopefully you have dissuaded anyone from auditioning ATC.

Since nothing I say you can agree with except that ATC is an old design and things have moved on since then, I feel I have exhausted this topic.

For the sake of civility and in deference to all the expertise here at Audio Circle, I'll refrain from commenting ever again.

[Stuart]

Stuart,

When I listened to their whole product line this was their best sounding model in the line. However, I did get the feeling that the rest of the product line using passive networks might have been being held back considerably with budget level crossover parts. And the passive models were certainly being held back by the electronics used to demo them in the store that I auditioned them in.

Upgrade the passive models with some decent parts and put them on better gear and some of those models my have really beaten up the powered model.

I like the line and think of them as being very good (especially the drivers), but find them a long way from being able to use them in a statement like that.

As a designer I had a hard time understanding why they designed a speaker with so much surface reflection from the front baffle. And as a listener I had a hard time getting past that. That element alone is not at all good for imaging and sound stage.

Hi Danny,

Hope you are well my good friend?

You are absolutely correct. I have heard the passive versions of the same monitors with a seriously upgraded crossover and using the Scan BE tweeter fed with some really powerful valve mono blocks and the Audio Research Ref 5 pre and they beat the actives hands down. We can debate all we like about various speakers being better than the next and I see that some people are getting quite excited about this!
There is something very special about the sound of the ATC SCM100 and that beautiful mid driver with the right setup!!!!!!!!!!

[Freo-1]

AJ,

You asked for data and then you say anything can be made to look good.

It is clear to me you know a lot about ATC such that you are convinced they are at worst a bad design or at best nothing special.

Hopefully you have dissuaded anyone from auditioning ATC.

Since nothing I say you can agree with except that ATC is an old design and things have moved on since then, I feel I have exhausted this topic.

For the sake of civility and in deference to all the expertise here at Audio Circle, I'll refrain from commenting ever again.

Please do not do that.  I've enjoyed and have learned from your sharing of knowledge.  I must say, (with all due respect), that some here are acting like spurned high school kids at the prom after they found out they were stood up.   
 
I appreciate your civility in this as well.  I think the ATC track record speaks for itself, and certainty has enjoyed much more success for a longer period of time that the naysayers would admit to.   
 
The rock throwing just seems like jealousy to me.  Besides, I sure do not see any alternatives being mentioned as better performers over the ATC's     

[Hugh]

As long as the OP is happy wih his choice, who cares what others think.

[Freo-1]

As long as the OP is happy wih his choice, who cares what others think.

Agreed, and thank you!

[S Clark]

As long as the OP is happy wih his choice, who cares what others think.

I'd hope that he likes it since he bought it.   I would spend my $ differently.

[AJinFLA]

AJ,
You asked for data and then you say anything can be made to look good.

Not quite. If you read my initial post, I said I had issues with very specific objective claims.
Objective claims require data. Thanks for providing what you did, but clearly, as I pointed out, it is insufficient to support the claims, without context.

It is clear to me you know a lot about ATC such that you are convinced they are at worst a bad design or at best nothing special.
Hopefully you have dissuaded anyone from auditioning ATC.

I know very little about them and have had some, but limited exposure to their products (home systems, shows and studios). None of which is relevant when it comes to basic science and objectivity related to what was being claimed.
I sincerely hope that anyone interested in a product audition it themselves, rather than relying on various fans, reviews, hype, street rep, celebrity endorsements, etc.
Especially loudspeakers!
Yes, that includes ATC.

For the sake of civility and in deference to all the expertise here at Audio Circle, I'll refrain from commenting ever again.

That is certainly you're prerogative, but if you approached this objectively, you will see my "criticism" limited to specific non-subjective claims. I stated quite clearly that I would never dispute someones personal, subjective opinion. You like ATC, as does Freo, etc.
If you limited it to verifiable objective claims, or purely subjective opinions, "It sounds great to me", I would not be typing this right now. But that is not what occurred here.
Unless you have some connection to ATC, given your number of posts, I can't see how you wouldn't have far more to share with the site, other than this laser focus on a very specific brand of loudspeakers.

cheers,

AJ

[Danny Richie]

Hi Danny,

Hope you are well my good friend?

You are absolutely correct. I have heard the passive versions of the same monitors with a seriously upgraded crossover and using the Scan BE tweeter fed with some really powerful valve mono blocks and the Audio Research Ref 5 pre and they beat the actives hands down. We can debate all we like about various speakers being better than the next and I see that some people are getting quite excited about this!
There is something very special about the sound of the ATC SCM100 and that beautiful mid driver with the right setup!!!!!!!!!!

Man, I guess I am hanging in there. Nursing a few wounds, but still very blessed.

The mids look like nice drivers. They even make a 16 ohm version. It kind of makes me wonder what I could do with some in an MTM configuration. But then again, they are pretty expensive for what they are.

As long as the OP is happy wih his choice, who cares what others think.

I agree as well.

[Freo-1]

I sincerely hope that anyone interested in a product audition it themselves, rather than relying on various fans, reviews, hype, street rep, celebrity endorsements, etc.
Especially loudspeakers!
Yes, that includes ATC.

Can't argue that one bit.  It was an audition that convinced me they made superior speakers.  One thing that is certain (to me):  They DO play louder and cleaner than any cone based speaker I've ever heard.  Only horns go louder (with all that comes with it).  There is a very good reason many of the hard core speaker guys at DIY use their drivers.
 
BTW, ATC does not really market to the high end much at all.  Many of the audiophile folks I know didn't even know about company, since they do not play up to the high end rags.  They let their performance sell the product instead.
 
 

[Freo-1]

Found some data regarding measurements and spl levels:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/87123-atc-sm75-150s-dome-mid-measurement-data.html
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_highend_studio_monitor/
http://studio-hifi.com/images/All%20About%20ATC.pdf
 
Looks like Shadrone was closer to the truth than .......
 

[Pete Schumacher]

Found some data regarding measurements and spl levels:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/87123-atc-sm75-150s-dome-mid-measurement-data.html
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_highend_studio_monitor/
http://studio-hifi.com/images/All%20About%20ATC.pdf
 
Looks like Shadrone was closer to the truth than .......

The Mixonline site had this quote: "Perhaps the most obvious difference between these two monitors is their maximum SPL level. It's here where ATC fields a commanding advantage over DAL. A single ATC 300 cabinet will deliver an astonishing 121 dB SPL at less than .3% THD (with an additional 10 dB of headroom available!), an important consideration for loud pop music monitoring." 

Of course, there's no measurements posted to support the claim and no indication as to what frequency range they're talking about.  The ONLY measurement we've seen linked in this thread debunks that claim with only 100dB SPL and distortion rapidly rising above 4KHz. 

The last link you posted is another "review" with claims made and no objective data to back it up.

The midrange driver is a very solid performer as objectively measured by various people, including the linked data I posted.