Rock and roll speakers

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Rob Babcock

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Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #20 on: 20 Jul 2004, 12:54 pm »
You want some rock speakers?  How 'bout these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14993&item=5709906001&rd=1

Some really legendary speakers, and they look practically brand new.

nathanm

Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #21 on: 20 Jul 2004, 03:26 pm »
Quote from: DVV
In the wild and reckless days of my youth, AR's sales literature pointed out that there's no such thing as a speaker good for this but bad for that, or vice versa. A good speaker was good with anything, period. The rest were bad speakers.

Makes perfect sense to me.  Although in practice it seems that certain designs seem to subjectively suit one style of music over another I think ultimately if a speaker does not perform properly with a certain musical style then it cannot be truly considered a "good" speaker.  The general assumption is that rock requires more\better bass than say jazz or vocal music etc.  Phooey.  Really the only requirement that rock would have over other genres (maybe) is volume capability, which IS a definite weakness in speakers.  But that assumes the listener desires to play back rock records at "as-if-the-band-was-here" levels which I think most people probably don't do.  Getting the proper tonality is one thing, but the real trial is when and if you are wont to play the record at say 100db average level.  I am only speculating here, I am not at liberty to do such fun things.  From what I've read they say that only big horns will get you real world SPLs.  True???

DVV

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« Reply #22 on: 20 Jul 2004, 03:52 pm »
Quote from: nathanm
Makes perfect sense to me.  Although in practice it seems that certain designs seem to subjectively suit one style of music over another I think ultimately if a speaker does not perform properly with a certain musical style then it cannot be truly considered a "good" speaker.  The general assumption is that rock requires more\better bass than say jazz or vocal music etc.  Phooey.  Really the only requirement that rock would have over other genres (maybe) is volume capability, which IS a definite weakness in ...


Well, yes and no, Nate.

Yes in most cases, but only because of the power handling limitations of speakers. If you create a speaker which can take say 200W/8 ohms, which is 23 dBW, and it is reasonably efficient at say 92 dB/1W/1m, add 23 dB and you have (92+23) 115 dB SPL at 1 m. For comparison's sake:

1. The loudest peaks at rock concerts which have been recorded hit 112 dB, as compared to symphonic orchestra peaks which go "only" up to 110 dB,

2. A jet engine going full blast will produce 111 dB SPL at 3 meters, and

3. It is generally assumed that 109-110 dB SPL is the threshold where we instinctively cover our ears to protect them from excessive loudness.

My own speakers use components in a configuration which allows for power peaks exceeding 250W/8 ohms, so theoretically I should be able to hit around 116 dB SPL at 1 m. I never tried, and don't intend to.

Subjective loudness depends on many factors, from speaker load characteristics, its crossover and its inherent losses, via the amp driving it to the room it works in.

Subjectively, speakers with a leaner bass response will be better suited to chamber music, light jazz and acoustic musinc than rock - that's true enough. Other types of speakers, and JBL is usually mentioned here, will give powerfull bass but will not be very good for lighter paced music; that's a poor speaker, famous name notwithstanding, because 1 will get 10 that if you measured its POWER curve, you'd see it's anyting but flat, with the bass being prominent and high range subdued.

For the uninformed, a speaker's power curve is essentially analogous to an amplifier's power bandwidth; this is its frequency response but at high power levels, not the usual 2.83V. It is a much more revealing measurement regarding the speaker's true performance under real world operating conditions than the usual manufacturer declaration (just as an amp's full power bandwidth is far narrower than its frequency response at 1 W/8 ohms).

Far less magic in it all than one is usually led to believe ...

Cheers,
DVV

ASi_TEK

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Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #23 on: 24 Jul 2004, 11:30 pm »
Quote from: DVV
at 1 m. For comparison's sake:

1. The loudest peaks at rock concerts which have been recorded hit 112 dB, as compared to symphonic orchestra peaks which go "only" up to 110 dB,

2. A jet engine going full blast will produce 111 dB ...


Yikes! I should be deaf. my last car hit 154 dbs's on the Audiocontrol SPL meter, but this was at about 35-40hz.

You need cone area for rock music, especially in the midbass area. I have tried to play that through my $8k two-ways and it sucks. A dynamic full range tower with high spl sensitivity would be optimal in my mind.  Those new speakers that are 96 db that are in the market place should rock.

Something that might come to mind is the typical legacy speakers (sig. 3's, classic, or focus 20/20's), but my spare pair of paradigm studio 100's (extremely modified) can really do some really damage.

I would pair up the two frontswith set of subs ran in stereo mode and strategically placed to blend in. Nothing like pushing alot of air and smelling the insides of the cabinets from your seat!  8)

Brad

Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #24 on: 25 Jul 2004, 12:15 am »
I saw a pair of Legacy Classics on 'gon for $1250.
Lots of cone area there.   A friend of mine in town is using a pair with McIntosh gear and is very happy.   He's a vinyl freak.  2 TT's, 2 phono stages, thousands of records.

Those Daedalus look perfect, but $6400 is way outta budget.

I won't be buying until December, so there's time for more reviews to roll in, especially for the Zu Druid Dark and the Decware HDT.   If they are better with rock, while retaining the single driver magic of the Omegas, I may go that way.

I did pick up a 2nd VMPS smaller - so there's now plenty of large woofage in the room.

Thanks for all the suggestions/info.

JohnR

Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #25 on: 25 Jul 2004, 12:41 am »
Quote from: DVV

1. The loudest peaks at rock concerts which have been recorded hit 112 dB, as compared to symphonic orchestra peaks which go "only" up to 110 dB,

2. A jet engine going full blast will produce 111 dB ...


You might find the following of interest.

Quote
The first step in the determination of the required dynamic range for apparent noise-free reproduction of music signals is the examination of the peak levels found in actual music performances. Although most information on sound levels is focused on average levels and hearing damage, a number of studies have examined peak levels. An early paper by Sivian et a!. [ provided absolute peak acoustic level data for classical music with two piano solos measured at 103 and 104 dB SPL, two 15-piece orchestras measured at 112 dB SPL each, four examples of a 75-piece orchestra measured at 107, 112, 113, and 114 dB SPL, and two pipe organ examples measured at 106 and 116 dB SPL. Another study, by Lebo and Oliphant [ presented peak data of 101 dB SPL for classical and 114 or 122 dB SPL for popular music.

Meares and Lansdowne [ in a paper on sound levels in broadcasting studios, gave data for peak sound levels in recording studios at 111, 113, and 118 dB SPL for recital, orchestra, and dance band music, respectively. Ahnert [12] studied sound energies and peak levels of classical music, combining the results of a number of German investigators: peak levels between 86 and and 125 dB SPL were reported for recording locations. The author has also examined the question of absolute peak acoustic levels and has performed two studies. The first study [4] measured levels of 122 dB SPL for percussive classical and 124 dB SPL for electronically augmented country music. The second study by the author [ was more extensive, surveying over a 1-year period. In this study 47 music selections played during 36 different performances were examined for peak sound levels. An acoustic peak measuring device capable of measuring 90—130 dB SPL was used by the author sitting at favored listening locations. This produced peak levels ranging between 90 and 129 dB SPL. 22 classical music selections were measured, covering a range of 90—118 dB SPL, 11 rock music selections measured covered a range of 115— 129 dB SPL, six jazz music selections produced peak levels in the range of 114—127 dB SPL, whereas the remainder produced peak levels of between 116 and 127 dB SPL.

A combination of all the studies mentioned is presented in Fig. 2, which is a histogram showing the number of music examples versus peak acoustic levels. Fig. 2 really consists of two histograms, one on top of the other. The first is a combination of all lightly and darkly shaded bars. It represents the absolute peak level distribution for all 72 examples surveyed. The second histogram is only composed of the heavily shaded bars and represents the 51 examples surveyed that did not include any electronic augmentation (that is, amplifiers and loudspeakers). Inspection of this figure shows that many music performances have peak levels in the range of 120—129 dB SPL and that a number of these do not include electronic augmentation. The major reason for the existence of such high sound levels is the use of instruments capable of producing high sound levels. Most notable are drums, which are capable of producing sound levels of 138 dB SPL at a 1-m distance (see Sivian et al. [ for more details.) The major conclusion drawn from the study of Fig. 2 is that the reproduction of music performances at natural levels requires the ability to pro duce very loud sounds in the range of 120—129 dB.


From the following article, references included there:

http://www.zainea.com/Dynamic%20range.htm

Remember that these are *peak* levels. The average level can be 50-60 dB lower.

On the original question, I think what I'd be looking for is punch in the midbass area.

ASi_TEK

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Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #26 on: 26 Jul 2004, 01:18 am »
I agree with JohnR here as alot of the rock/metal I listen to has alot of bass guitars (pantera, for example) which have alot of rips in the midbass (energy) area, and drums being the beat and drive to most of the songs. Without being able to feel this energy, I lose all adrenaline with getting into the songs and find myself focusing on system problems.

Also, I think a pretty neutral top end is good as there is alot of EQ'ing going on with this type of music and having a bright or forward top end might make this sound to be overly exaggerated (and could sound potential harsh).

This is music that is hard to make sound very good because of all the noise going on, but when it does, it is killer!!!  This is where I think high SPL sensitivity and control is ultimately necessary. Believe me, there is some stuff I have listen to on previously-owned inferior systems before and I wonder why I even listening at all!

Good luck with the choice on the speakers, but remember, cone area and slam are key here.

Did you look at the VMPS Super Towers (all versions)? Might be another good speaker for this application? They have a 15" lower bass woofer! and a 10" MIDBASS woofer!! They also used better quality components in their crossovers than most out there. I haven't heard these (or any other VMPS speaker) but they look like they can definitely do the job and produce up to 115/db SPL levels from the claims.

JLM

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« Reply #27 on: 26 Jul 2004, 01:35 am »
JohnR,

IMO those stated spl's are too high, but perhaps they represent the very highest (unweighted) peaks.  Thankfully not many of us ever get within 1 meter away of a 138 dB drum.  To produce 125 dB in a typical room would require around 100 wpc from a pair of 105 dB/w/m speakers, 1,000 wpc from a pair 95 dB/w/m speakers, or 10,000 wpc from a pair of 85 dB/w/m speakers and I haven't found many of those kinds of amps/speaker combinations in use.  Not only would this level of performance be near impossible, you wouldn't be able to stay in the room long enough to turn it down.  (Stories like this exist for Klipsch users with 100 wpc amps.)

The resources I've run across over the years uses numbers more like these:

rock, 100 dB average, 115 dB peak

jazz, 85 dB average, 100 dB peak

classical, 75 dB average, 105 dB peak

Remember that long term exposure to spl's of 85 dB or higher WILL result in hearing damage/loss.


Brad,

As I said some realistic (accurate) playback from all musical forms, but if this is a dedicated rock system you might well consider speakers that mimic rock concert monitors.  Search the Decware forum for Klipsch.  A couple of guys there use them and love them with their tiny Decware SETs.

Horsehead

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JohnR

Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #29 on: 26 Jul 2004, 01:56 am »
Quote from: JLM
JohnR,

IMO those stated spl's are too high, but perhaps they represent the very highest (unweighted) peaks.


Well, they are the highest peaks. And those are published scientific studies, it's not really a matter of opinion... !

Quote
To produce 125 dB in a typical room would require around 100 wpc from a pair of 105 dB/w/m speakers, 1,000 wpc from a pair 95 dB/w/m speakers, or 10,000 wpc from a pair of 85 dB/w/m speakers  


That's why most systems sound compressed in comparison to real life -- because they are. Of course, it's not just the playback end it's the recording as well.

Quote
Remember that long term exposure to spl's of 85 dB or higher WILL result in hearing damage/loss.


That's average level. If you have a 50dB peak to average ratio, then 120dB peaks are only 70 dB average. That's the whole point :)

JLM

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« Reply #30 on: 26 Jul 2004, 11:45 am »
JohnR,

Note that some of those references are over 60 years old.  Published scientific papers doesn't not mean that they represent fact.  As these numbers don't correlate with any of published materials I've read, I'll continue to feel free to dismiss it.  And as the study itself admits, we don't have the technology to record, store, or playback that the specified dynamic ranges anyway.

The spls referenced could crack plaster, let alone eardrums.  Exposure to 10,000 times (40 dB) peaks above the recommend long term energy level of 85 dB can't be a smart thing if you want to avoid pain/hearing loss.

BTW I'm a proponent of having plenty of dampening/power in the amp to be able to really keep a firm grip on the speaker, just not to the extremes stated in the Dolby Labs report you referenced.

JohnR

Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #31 on: 26 Jul 2004, 12:54 pm »
Well, once again, the point is that the peak to average ratio of sounds in real life is very high. I'm wondering if you understand the difference -- no offence intended...

Anyway, perhaps you could post links to these "published materials" of yours - ?

cjr888

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« Reply #32 on: 26 Jul 2004, 01:07 pm »
Brad - What size is your room and at what distance do you typically listen to?

Curious in regard to the discussion of live listening levels and peaks.  I can think of plenty of speakers that will do the dynamics thing, move tons of air, play at high levels, etc, but the question is, but it all doesn't really matter if you're listening six feet away in a 14x12 room.  :-)  

Just thinking in the sense of whether I'd want a band to practice in my own space or not.

If you have the space, I'd say go nuts.  If not, I think your options become much more open.

Rory B.

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Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #33 on: 26 Jul 2004, 01:19 pm »
The VMPS Tower II speakers were reviewed by a major magazine (i believe it was Audio, but I can't remember for sure) as being quite possibly the perfect rock speakers, able to reproduce deep bass very well with plenty of punch and extension, perfect for the drums and bass of rock music. The reviewer commented that his daughter had taken quite a shine to the Tower II speakers for playing her indie-rock CDs. Perhaps we could get the VMPS designer, Brian Cheney, to comment in this thread.

jakepunk

Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #34 on: 26 Jul 2004, 01:43 pm »

Brad

Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #35 on: 26 Jul 2004, 02:51 pm »
I'll have to measure the space to be sure.
I sit about 10' from the speakers.
Width is 14' or so, but it opens into another room on one side.
Depth is 15-16'.
Height is about 20'

I did check the link for the VMPS SuperTower 20th anniversary edition.
At $1876 list, they look like a terrific bargain.   Plenty of driver cone area.
I'd be curious to know the x-over points.

When I had a pair of RM2 ribbons, I felt the x-over to the ribbon mids was set way too low.   I also didn't have a powerful enough amp at the time (100w ss or 50w EL34 based tube amp).

Tonto Yoder

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Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #36 on: 26 Jul 2004, 04:29 pm »
I got a pair of older Infinity Kappa speakers at a local thrift store a while ago: I certainly enjoyed playing rock on them much more than my more audiophile speakers.

There's a pair of Kappa 7's on eBay now  (should go for $500 or so)--
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61376&item=5710997178&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

For more impact, get the Kappa 8's or 9's.

Rob Babcock

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Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #37 on: 26 Jul 2004, 08:24 pm »
I heard a pair of Kappa 7's back in the day with a sub, and it was very good.

sharper

Rock and roll speakers
« Reply #38 on: 26 Jul 2004, 08:39 pm »
That review in Audio magazine by Anthony Cordesman is what got me to drive from Montreal to Boston to hear and then buy the Tower II's. The review is spot on.

Brad,
        I had an ARC D350 (350 W/ch SS behemoth) driving my Tower II/R's. These speakers really benefit from a lot of power...especially when you play the kind of music you're talking about.

Scott

Tonto Yoder

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« Reply #39 on: 27 Jul 2004, 10:24 pm »
Quote from: Rob Babcock
I heard a pair of Kappa 7's back in the day with a sub, and it was very good.


Wonder what THESE (IRS Beta) would sound like??--
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5710992982&indexURL=0#ebayphotohosting

Mid/tweet tower: