[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Most, if not all of you Audio Circle members know already the weakness and/or characteristic of the extended (Full) range driver.
All of them (Even the most expensive Lowther.) they more or less peak and/or have a bump/rise around 1 KHz to 5 KHz.
(There might be one or two exceptions… But I am talking in general.)
In your opinion, is it worthed to endure, accept the (Annoying for some) bump, rise, peak or whatever you call it?
With my Audio Nirvana 8” standard (Really, entry level) extended range driver (Paid 78 USD/pair a few year ago) I did several test with different configurations.
Bass reflex and open baffle.
The best result and the most pleasant sound I got, that made me forget the bump rise in 1 KHz to 5 KHz range, was with a pair of V1 and V2 sub woofer (The subwoofer section without the 8 or 12” coaxial drivers.)
I will never be able to find the right words to describe the magic of those single point drivers.
There is something magic about the sound they produce that make you forget about their weakness.
Of course, in the right enclosure, they have bass, but for me, they need a little help below 100 Hz.
Up to now, the only word that I found that describes best what the extended range drive does best is: Ambiance.
I can add also the word: Details…
What about you?
What do you think?

Guy 13

[JLM]

Yes, single driver designs are special (coherent, imaging, don't sound like "hi-fi", active by default - dynamic/amazing bass considering, emphasize the heart of the music - midrange).

My 30 - 20,000 Hz Fostex F200A drivers don't peak, but aren't cheap  (currently about $450 USD each before i had Bud Puvine treat them).  So I don't suffer lack of frequency range, thin/forward sound, or output (they're rated 90 dB/w/m efficient and to handle 80 watt - 19 dB of gain). 

IMO a good speaker (especially single driver designs) require a good driver.  Amazes me the effort/money some put into cabinets/veneers/finishes and invest 5% of the price into the working guts.  And as a "speaker guy" it amazes me of the money invested in the rest of the audio chain just to use some dopey drivers.  Not trying to be an elitist (I'm cheap, trying to assemble a 2nd system for well under $1000).

Have you tried forms of EQ (circuit, electronic equalizer, software equalizer)?

Note that many extended range speakers have zobel/baffle step circuits added, so why not provide some help?

[Guy 13]

Yes, single driver designs are special (coherent, imaging, don't sound like "hi-fi", active by default - dynamic/amazing bass considering, emphasize the heart of the music - midrange).

My 30 - 20,000 Hz Fostex F200A drivers don't peak, but aren't cheap  (currently about $450 USD each before i had Bud Puvine treat them).  So I don't suffer lack of frequency range, thin/forward sound, or output (they're rated 90 dB/w/m efficient and to handle 80 watt - 19 dB of gain). 

IMO a good speaker (especially single driver designs) require a good driver.  Amazes me the effort/money some put into cabinets/veneers/finishes and invest 5% of the price into the working guts.  And as a "speaker guy" it amazes me of the money invested in the rest of the audio chain just to use some dopey drivers.  Not trying to be an elitist (I'm cheap, trying to assemble a 2nd system for well under $1000).

Have you tried forms of EQ (circuit, electronic equalizer, software equalizer)?

Note that many extended range speakers have zobel/baffle step circuits added, so why not provide some help?

Hi JLM and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for your comments.
Very interesting.
May I know (On this forum or in a PM) what Bud charged you for the EnABL treatment and where he is located?
The Fostex F200a driver look very interesting, however, as you mentioned, the price is in fact a big draw back for poor people like me.
Extended range drivers are more or less inexpensive and with their high efficiency you same money on the amplifier, since you don’t need tons of watts.
I drive my AN 8” with only 2 wpc and I am happy.
I also have a Niteshade Audio SE Pentode with 10 wpc when I want to listen to music disco level style…
I want to do some experimenting with the Dayton PS-220-8 and the AN 8” cast frame driver.
If money permits; I might try the Fostex F200a.
Where is the best place to buy it?
I have several equalizing circuit diagrams that I will try when I am back to Canada.
Those circuits are simple to build and inexpensive,
I will see if those circuits kill or diminish the magic of the extended range drivers.
I don’t want to try any electronic equalizers, even if they are good and don’t change the quality of the sound.
It’s just my preference.
Later on, much later on, I would like to built the Bottlehead paramour 2A3 SET kit with the extended driver that will have given me the best sound.
Thanks again.

Guy 13

[JLM]

Bud lives in Washington state, his recipes (different for each driver) are public domain.  I had to twist his arm to do mine (he's an older gentleman and that was years ago).  Thankfully for both of us the drivers had been in use for 5 years and as he had only worked on newer drivers he learned with my commission that the F200A could use an extra ring of "dashes".  Once "EnABL'd" Bud considers the F200A to be one of the world's very best.  As I recall, he charged about $600/pair, but honestly he has his own transformer company so this stuff is just a hobby for him.

I bought my drivers at Madisound.com.

Frankly I found most high efficiency drivers to be "colored", hence the F200A route.

[FullRangeMan]

Of course, in the right enclosure, they have bass, but for me, they need a little help below 100 Hz.
Guy,
You can increase the bass responde of your Nirvana 8inches by add more stuffing inside the box.
In the past I used just 3 small pieces of this brown blanket (10mm thick) below in a pro audio FR and the bass goes up.
Or you can put this 8 FR in a bigger box.

[Brad]

I'm pretty sure that kitty isn't going below 100hz 

[SET Man]

Hey!
   
    Yes, that's something special and unique with full range driver aka Single driver speaker without xover. Especially with SET amp.

   The Fostex F200A is a fantastic driver. Almost a true full range driver.... I do feel that it is. I've heard a pair in a big transmission line cabs. And the bass is all there for sure. The only down side with that driver for me is the sensitivity of 90dB... which is still high compare to most speakers system out there. But not quite high to be use with lower power SET amp.

   Anyway, as for the so called "peak" or "shout" of single driver speaker. This a common problem with many drivers out there, some are worst than others. But there are ways of taming this out there... like cone or/and whizzer coating and etc. And keep in mind that the measurement you see are on axis and some drivers will have less peak at that region a bit off axis.

  As for the bass. Well, all I can that if you are going to do a full range driver bass right, especially high efficiency one... you have to go big like back horn loaded or transmission line.

  And yes tuning the speaker with stuffing is very important and will take time and patient.

   BTW... if I had money and space I would love to try the 8" Seas FA22RCZ. Anyone using this?

Take care,
Buddy  

   

[FullRangeMan]

This Lowther are one of the peaky FR:
Even the cone has 3 breaks in 1, 2 and 3 kHz.
So cheap FR driver are faulty and imperfect, but they are not alone.

[JLM]

Buddy, you're right about the F200A being too much for SET.  Tried a 2 and 6 wpc tubes and they puked.  But my 7 wpc Class-T did pretty well (but 40 watt chip monoblocks did better - turned polite dinner guest into NFL linebacker in a tux).  I believe having plenty of horsepower to provide a commanding grip on the speaker (for improved control for better detail and imaging).

[Brad]

JLM - did you ever try a larger SET on the F200As - something like an 845 or 211?

Just curious.  The larger SETs can also get kinda pricy.

[SET Man]

Buddy, you're right about the F200A being too much for SET.  Tried a 2 and 6 wpc tubes and they puked.  But my 7 wpc Class-T did pretty well (but 40 watt chip monoblocks did better - turned polite dinner guest into NFL linebacker in a tux).  I believe having plenty of horsepower to provide a commanding grip on the speaker (for improved control for better detail and imaging).

Hey!

     2 wpc amp puked?  Well, ideally I feel that you will need speaker with sensitivity of 98dB+ for 2-4 wpc amp. Of course there are exceptions to this generalized rule. I've heard a 2A3 SET in my system and even with my 94dB 6" Fostex it wasn't enough for me.

     Yes, the F200A is not very efficient but the trade off would be lower bass respond. Price wise, even with the current price it is very good consider that they are alnico magnet.

JLM - did you ever try a larger SET on the F200As - something like an 845 or 211?

Just curious.  The larger SETs can also get kinda pricy.

    Yup, bigger bottles SET will be swinging with the F200A. A good 845 SET running 25-40wpc would be just fine for the F200A. But current new 845 SET amps are pricey for sure. So, a good used one can be a way to go.

Take care,
Buddy

[JLM]

Buddy/Brad,

Obviously 2 wpc with 90 dB/w/m was a dumb idea, but was hosting a private audiofest with Darryl from Hawthorne and HurdyGurdy Dave (his first mentor/crossover guy) and were curious.  After commissioning the first pair of Bob Brine's T18-F200 ($1,000 USD cheaper 10 years ago and he keeps renaming his products) I was a bit a celebrity and had a few very nice folks loan me various amps for home demos.  Also hauled them to a bigger private audiofest a few month later with a few SET fans.  A 30 wpc EL34 produced poor resolution and big flabby bass, but gobsmacked the SET folks with all the bass in a 4,000 cubic foot space (learned that bass is easy to learn to live without to the point of forgetting what real bass really is, or that it actually exist, or even liking it - and that was without the baffle step circuits).  BTW that's where Darryl introduced the first Silver Iris speaker.  Since then I replaced the baffle step circuits with DEQ, had Bud Purvine EnABL the drivers, have scored a used pair of the original Channel Island Audio D-100 100 wpc Hypex mono blocks that Dusty tweaks the circuit and uses beefy power supplies, and bypassed the speaker terminals to allow speaker cable to connect direct to the drivers.

Back then I did try it with a 12 wpc tube, very nice (extremely dense images, but bass was exaggerated and bit loose).  Would love to hear them with the Decware Torii (25 wpc) but at $3,000 USD and a 12 week production wait that won't be happening anytime soon.  (Plus all those tubes to match/roll/replace gives me the willies.)   

But you're right, a good single driver design doesn't have to cost a ton.  OTOH I'm a speaker guy, so have a hard time spending more on amps than speakers.  So what's a cheap Irishman to do?

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
2 wpc amp. with 96 db extended range driver is not a bad idea,
especially at moderate listening level in a medium size listening room.
That's what I have and I am very happy with it.
By the way, I don't care about the weak bass from a extended range driver, because I supplement it with an U configuration OB with two 12" Eminence Acoustinator driven by a (Discontinued) GR Research SA-1 (300watts).
Plenty of good sounding bass.

Guy 13

[DaveC113]

Omega's new RS5 driver is also pretty close to full range, mid 40 Hz range to 20kHz, and without any peaks. It's 94-95 dB efficient and is a good match for my EL34 SET amp, at around 5.5 watts. Price is ridiculously low for the performance you get.

But like any speaker, it's a compromise... single drivers just can't deliver lots of mid bass impact and high SPL levels. For me, it's a good compromise as I don't listen at very high SPLs, but if your priority is to recreate a rock concert a single driver isn't a good choice.

[FullRangeMan]

I like the F200A, I noted it is suited for small or mid size enclousures, so SPL dont will increase much more than the specified 90dB.
For less price and more 2 inches I would suggest the Nirvana Super10Alnico at 700 pair, seems SPL will be 96dB is a big BR box, or even more in a jumbo 300 liters box.
It just dont seems so good in the treble as the F200A, which may be fixed w/stuffing if need.

[JLM]

Omega's new RS5 driver is also pretty close to full range, mid 40 Hz range to 20kHz, and without any peaks. It's 94-95 dB efficient and is a good match for my EL34 SET amp, at around 5.5 watts. Price is ridiculously low for the performance you get.

But like any speaker, it's a compromise... single drivers just can't deliver lots of mid bass impact and high SPL levels. For me, it's a good compromise as I don't listen at very high SPLs, but if your priority is to recreate a rock concert a single driver isn't a good choice.

I tried asking in the Omega AC forum how much power the RS5 can handle (thinking others might want to know too) but Louis has not responded.  I asked, not because of being a headbanger - far from it, but to know its peak limits (obvious concern for a small, extended range driver).  I like any speaker to be able to reproduce live peaks (105 - 110 dB) in-room, but based on what I've read (never sure what reviews don't say) doubt the RS5 would reach that.  I respect Louis and his work and all else being equal would prefer this size of driver.

[DaveC113]

JLM, as I said... 105 is likely. Best way to reach Louis is to pick up the phone... 

[Rocket_Ronny]

Myself, since I am digitally based, I simply e.q. to taste. Problem solved. It's so easy and inexpensive, and does not cause any ill effects, only benefits. Vinyl users could add digital e.q. and the negative effects of added AD-DA conversions may be far less than tolerating some nasty frequency rise in their system.

I see people all the time selling speakers and amps because they don't blend into their systems due to frequency response issues when all they need to do is e.q.

In the case of the Fostex 4" drivers I have used, they sounded best when I would add 6 db at 100 hz and level it out at 1 khz. Myself, I don't like going over 4" for a wide band driver due to the imaging compromises I hear, as imaging is VERY important in my world. Gong to 6" I find individual images to be larger, less 3D or flatter, and overall less real. Each step up in size results in a continuation of this affect. Of course, if you have your speakers close to an untreated wall this makes no difference as you won't hear it since the imaging is so compromised anyway. You need to pull them out a fair ways to hear what I am talking about. Even the sloped baffle in the picture below made a difference imaging wise, verses no slope.





Rocket_Ronny