[Geardaddy]

In fact, its likely that he will make a separate DSD module optimized ONLY for DSD with no compromise to PCM. It is apparently too difficult to do all in one box and get acceptable results as a commercially repeatable option.

Where do you derive this opinion from?

[Geardaddy]

What are the primary changes from Gen 3 to 4?  Is it primarily a transition from tube to SS rectification? 

[Brad]

Where do you derive this opinion from?

What I read was that the tube DSD DAC was an all-tube circuit - no decoding chip.
I could see that making for a single-purpose product.

[Brad]

Whoops - just saw this

Quote from website:

The DSD DAC will be available from Level 3 to 5. (not the 6).

Commercial availability - July 2013.

Retro-fit upgrades of existing DACS will be provided when time allows.

The DSD DAC will play also PCM material via USB and SPDIF.

[ted_b]

Where do you derive this opinion from?

Norman (Wison) is very good friends with Lucasz, and chats with him regularly.  He forwarded me several of his comments about DSD, and this is spot on.  Nothing unusual here.  Lucasz is hoping to produce a kind of two box approach, where each is dedicated to its format (DSD and PCM).  This is quite a ways down the road I believe.

[wisnon]

Where do you derive this opinion from?

LoL

Take a wild guess.

Gen 4 is a chip change and general optimization. All explained on his website. Gen 3 was delta sigma, Gen 4 is R2R multibit with current output.

All are tube rectification, but user can specify SS rectification if they want, like what Gopher did. At least, that is my understanding.

BTW, I am located in Europe....Switzerland, so the time difference can account for delay in reply.

[wisnon]

Thanks

I was actually talking about the tube DSD version.   That is the one I'd be interested in, especially given the raves about it.

Not finalized yet.

Standalone DSD Dac will likely be a July thing. It will be super fast filterchip and tube output. No opamps.

Current Lampi Dac owners will likely get a significant discount from retail.

[Geardaddy]

LoL

Take a wild guess.

I expected that answer, but it was actually a serious question.  Second hand information never satisfies. 

There is a lot of chatter about his "tube-only" DSD paradigm on various forums (an oxymoron), and how it could generate noise issues.  Any feedback on that?  I know Lucasz enjoys prose on his website, but measurements would be interesting to see.  Purely academic obviously.  Glory has the dreaded, bastardized, one box DSD entity and it smokes his gourd....

[wisnon]

Cleary Glory did not get his from Lukasz.

A one box can be made to work beautifully, but the effort would make the cost prohibitive I am told. Much simpler, cheaper and purer to have a dedicated box and no chance of PCM compromise at commercial scale production.

No measurements, but the noise issue seems to have been solved to his satisfaction. He uses a filter chip and tube output and says now his prototype is fit for prime time. Completely satisfied with the sound. See the 2nd hand description I posted earlier.

Obviously this is all 2nd hand, but its the best I can do...

[glory]

Owning a Lamp Dac in the US and shipping back to Poland for DSD or upgrades will cost big $$$. Had a friend do that and 5 months + later he got his unit back.

Just warning you!!

[wisnon]

Well, Ming is the US dealer so I dont understand why you talk about shipping back to Poland....

Furthermore, if the DSD unit is separate, how is any shipping of the PCM Lampi Dac a concern? DSD will be a separate standalone unit!

[Geardaddy]

Winson, that is fair.  I am excited for Lucasz and have heard nothing but praise from Gary/Glory regarding the Lamp.  I am actively looking into one myself, so no hater hear.  I agree 100% with Lucasz's sentiments regarding sonics, etc.   

[glory]

Do you really need a stand alone unit? At least with a two box L5 one has the room to install a DSD board so the SA box is not needed.

My point was send the unit to Ming for DSD or upgrades.

[wisnon]

Ming does not have the official Lampi DSD upgrade, as it was only finalized a day or 2 ago.

You need the 2nd box if you want DSD done Lukasz style , to his standards. No idea how your sounds and I dont doubt that it is good, but it is not the same. That is my point.

DSD in a separate box means no possible compromise.

[Geardaddy]

You need the 2nd box if you want DSD done Lukasz style , to his standards. No idea how your sounds and I dont doubt that it is good, but it is not the same. That is my point.

DSD in a separate box means no possible compromise.

It seems like the Lampizator DSD adventure is still in progress or it would be available for purchase now.

Gary said the DSD mod took his L5 (Gen 3 or 4?) to a whole other level.

My guess is that blinded A/B testing would not illicit dramatic differences between one and two boxes.  Seems like OCD-audiophile hand wringing to me...that and marketing. 

[glory]

Ming does not have the official Lampi DSD upgrade, as it was only finalized a day or 2 ago.

You need the 2nd box if you want DSD done Lukasz style , to his standards. No idea how your sounds and I dont doubt that it is good, but it is not the same. That is my point.

With L's Gen 1/2/3/4 units coming out over the past 2 years I would think one needs to wait till Gen 4 DSD Dac comes out for best uncompromising results.

I must say I would rather have a MingizAtor DSD Dac than Gen 1 Lamp DSD stand alone Dac.

[wisnon]

Glory, you have never heard the Lampi DSD, so how do you come to that conclusion? I have not heard either, but given  that I know the SQ from the Lampi PCM Dac, of course I would throw my hat in with Lukasz's design. This does not mean that Ming does not do a good job, but I have no personal experience. And of course it would be Ming Gen 1, no? The Lampi was launched in late 2010 as a commercial product, so its nearly 3 years of learning and refinement, all of which I expect to be brought to the DSD Dac.

The DSD Dac is now available BTW, and its possible to do it in the 2 box L5, but not in single box L3 or L4. From his website:
 
Above: the Lampizator DSD DAC Level 5 with MacBook Pro via USB - first system in UK (at the bottom - SILK filter)
Announcing: DSD DAC for sale
Warsaw, June 8th 2013
We announce that DSD DAC is ready for sale.

Due to huge difference between PCM and DSD process we feel it is too big of a compromise to put both systems in one box. The power supply requirements, computer connectivity, tube arrangements - are all different. Plus the DSD dac tends to pollute the surrounding environment of  the box far too much for the good old PCM to tolerate.

The LampizatOr DSD DAC will therefore be DSD-ONLY and it will not play anything else. No S/PDIF no AES/EBU,  no TOSLINK, no USB/PCM either.

IMPORTANT NOTE: THE COMMERCIAL DSD DAC IS NOT THE RADIO TECHNOLOGY ONE DESCRIBED ABOVE.  THAT ONE WAS A PROTOTYPE, AN EXERCISE IN ELECTRONICS. THE REASON IT COULD NOT BE SOLD WAS THAT IT HAD TOO MANY FILTRATION ARTIFACTS AUDIBLE BETWEEN SONGS. ON SILENT MOMENTS IT HAD SOME POPS, CLICKS AND BUZZ. SO WE HAD TO DESIGN SOMETHING MORE SELLABLE.

THE LAMPIZATOR DSD DAC HAS USB PORT BUILT IN, SOLID STATE DIGITAL FILTER, PASSIVE DISCRETE ANALOG FILTER AND ACTIVE DISCRETE TUBE FILTER. IT DOES NOT MANIPULATE THE DATA IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM, IT DOES NOT CONVERT IT, UPSAMPLE, RECLOCK OR DOWNSAMPLE. IT DOES NOT GO THROUGH PCM PROCESS EITHER. IT IS PUREST NATIVE DSD WE KNOW OF. WE PRACTICALLY ONLY GENTLY REMOVE THE CARRIER FREQUENCY FROM THE RAW DATA AS IT COMES FROM HARD DRIVE. NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS.


The DSD DAC is fully optimized for one thing and one thing only - to play the DSD music in its full beauty.

We figured that many audiophiles already have a PCM DAC and some of them very good, so the DSD is an addition, expansion of their system.

We are used to the fact that a DAC is a separate entity from a tuner, reel-to reel player, turntable with phono-stage or home theatre. So why treat DSD differently if it has nothing in common with the old type PCM DAC except the word DAC and the fact that both types of file can be stored on a hard drive ?

DSD DAC will not be available as a retrofit addition to Lampizator DAC except the Level 5.
It is possible to install DSD DAC in Level 5 machine


So here it is.

DSD DAC Specification and pricing:

DSD DAC capable of playing iso files through USB port, with speed 64 and 128.
All technicalities similar to LampizatOr DAC as we know it.
We created a special level to satisfy all even most demanding audiophiles: LEVEL 3.5 which has all the guts of Level 4 except the INOX sub-chassis.
One USB input (works with MAC OS without any drivers and requires a driver for all Windows types. (Ask about LINUX compatibility)
One pair RCA stereo SE outputs
110-115-220-230-240 V AC variants
One tube for PSU rectification (6X5)
One dual triode tube  for DSD active filtering process (6111 or 6021 or 6N16P)
A pair of dual triodes for analog LampizatOr output stage (Ecc40 or 6SN7GT or E182CC or 6N6P or E88CC)
Three transformers with total of 200 VA
Jensen Output capacitors - copper in oil or tin in oil
5 years warranty (fully transferrable)
Black or silver front face

PRICE 3000 Euro (plus VAT in EU countries)
Retrofit in old Level 5 DAC : 700 Euro plus VAT
Installation in new production Level 5 DACS: 500 Euro

OPTIONS
Duelund capacitors Copper Cast PIO   (add 200 Eu for a pair)
Volume control with 64 steps and remote control (add 400 Euro)
Biamping output add 100 Euro
Balanced fully differential outputs: add 400 Euro
(two more Duelunds for ballanced cost 200 euro extra)


Owners of LampizatOr DACs : ASK ABOUT YOUR DISCOUNT for DSD DAC !

[wisnon]

It seems like the Lampizator DSD adventure is still in progress or it would be available for purchase now.

Gary said the DSD mod took his L5 (Gen 3 or 4?) to a whole other level.

My guess is that blinded A/B testing would not illicit dramatic differences between one and two boxes.  Seems like OCD-audiophile hand wringing to me...that and marketing.

Go read what the designer of the acclaimed Calyx Femto Dac said about NOT including DSD in his Dac, despite him using ESS Sabre chips. You will see its consistent with what Lukasz says. With the 2 box L5, there is enough space to run separate systems so as to isolate PCM and DSD subsytems. This is practical design considerations, not marketing fluff. It would be easier commercially to stuff everything in one box...if it was possible to avoid compromising performance to an intolerable level.  In any case, YOU have to make the determination for yourself.

Glory has the TWO box Level 5 lampi Dac...not a one box unit at all.

Finally, adding DSD cant take a PCM Dac to new levels! Two separate animals and the tendency is to detract from PCM quality if one is not careful in design and implementation. Now, if he says that DSD playback in his Dac is the bees knees, then I can drink to that.

[Geardaddy]

Marketing hot air.  There are one solutions from other big names who know DSD.  Regardless, everything is in its infancy.  People still argue the validity of the format itself.  The PCM-only crowd would mock this thread...

[jhm731]

http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/06/08/announcing-the-lampizator-dsd-dac/