[yeldarb]

I put my Dynaudio driver Madisound MDY 3 in the closet in favor of the Tekton Lore.  The Dynaudio, which I ran with a Dayton sub, are extremely detailed and can throw a great sound field with depth and width outside the speakers.  But....they never sounded like Lore with the easy way that they put sound into my room.  In terms of naturalness (live music), the Lores win.  And they can be very loud if you want, while still having good detail at low volume.  With the Lore, I have bass down in the low 30's with my near room corner placement, no sub required.  The Dynaudio needed to be cranked for their best and I always had about 200 watts per.  200 watts on the Lore would stun small animals.  20 watts might be all you need.

The Lore have a return period if you try and don't like.  And Eric Alexander has other models if the thought of a "guitar speaker" doesn't meet your idea of Hi-Fi.  Trust me, I used to sell this stuff, in the good old days, and I really enjoy my HI-FI Lores.

[persisting1]

For apartment living, a subwoofer might not be the best idea.

[lonewolfny42]

I wish I had heard these speakers, but sad to say I've not had a chance to audition any of them.  I was really hoping for constructive feedback about how these different speakers compare and contrast.  In what way would you say they are on opposite ends of the spectrum?

Lastly, I'd jump at the chance to demo any of these.  If anyone is in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and happens to have any of these, I'd really appreciate the chance to audition them.  Thanks!

You can check here....North Texas Audio Jam Circle..

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=77.0

[SET Man]

dmcs414,

Meet Rclark. A major fan of Maggies on this forum.

Not sure how much he is on the forums these days due to a new baby girl, but our boy Gopher is a huge Zu enthusiast.

Perhaps this thread could turn into the Rclark-Gopher death match 

And you haven't mentioned how you are powering these new speakers. For the Zu/Tekton speakers you have a number of nice flea-watt amp options. Maggies, on the other hand require some power.

As for your interest in quality sound at low levels, this is something that single driver/minimal crossover efficient designs excel at. Often speakers that need a lot of power only "wake up" and really shine at certain volume levels. But I don't have any direct experience with Maggies at low volumes to comment on whether that is the case for them or not.

Hey!
 
    As a Single driver speaker user I do agreed with you on the last sentence there. In small apartment room it is hard to beat and they do better at lower level listening also. Not to mention that in a small room you will be sitting very close to the speaker, because of that with most 2-way and 3-way speaker the sound from those driver won't blend well. Although there are some well designed multi-way speaker that sound very seamless.

   Anyway, as for those speakers that original poster mentioned. I've heard some of them at one point. Before I built my current single driver speaker I was using Maggie 1.5, they haven't been back in the system since I finished my single driver speaker... so that's say something. I still have them gathering dust, maybe I should let them go. They do sound good but need some distance between you and the speaker. And they can sound a bit lacking in dynamic at very low level listening.

  As for the Zu. I've heard some of them before at shows and once at the guy's house that I bought my Bel Canto 845 amp from. I forgot the model, they were a smaller floor standers. From what I've heard so far I have to say I'm not a fan with Zu speaker at all. They just don't sound right to "me". Sad, since I'm a SET fan I was excited when they first came out because they are high efficient and design to work with lower power amp.

   I've heard the Clue at the New York Audio show last year...



(the rest of the show photo... http://flic.kr/s/aHsjyWKU2U if interested)

   They actually sound pretty good and the bass seem to go lower than their size would suggest. Don't know about the 28hz... possible with room boundary help but definitely low enough for most people. The only problem was that that were play very loud at the show so I have no idea how they will sound at lower listening level. But at least with these you won't have to use sub like with Maggie.

   Haven't heard any Tekton so I have no idea how they sound.

   Anyway, for a small room. If don't want to venture into Single drive speaker that I would suggest look for a nice 2-way speaker, higher efficient is a plus. And if possible try to find speakers you like and listen to them in person.

   Good luck.

Take care,
Buddy





   
   

   

[cujobob]

I wouldn't go that far. Ran N1x's in here vs my Maggie's and there was bloat and room interaction with gr monitors (at volume). Small room is what mmgs are made for.

N1X are ported monitors...could get the sealed N2X or plug the ports on those but it mostly depends on how far off the wall they are. The N2X have been some of the best speakers I have tried in my tough, smallish living room. They throw a big soundstage which can be hampered when too close to a side wall, though.

MMG would likely need more accommodation in a small room would be my thinking. Don't they need to be pulled out a certain distance?  They take up a decent amount of space themselves, also, if memory serves. You would know better than I...just some thoughts.

As for subs in apartments..I wouldn't rule them out at all. Maybe not go with a big sub, but in the cheaper range...it's a good way to get both good mids/highs and lower bass. There are subs that only go down to 30 or 40 hz which would be fine.

[Rclark]

Oh yeah, I used Cardas calculator to find the right spot for the N1's. Good and far into the room. And I had them on my sand filled Sanus UF-27 stands.

Get the volume up past a certain point and you are definitely dealing with a box speaker. The room ringing away, bloated bass, all that. I did try plugging the ports as well. Treatments would help a lot. The sealed version might be better, who knows. The tweeter was very nice though, you're right, and big soundstage.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I wish I had heard these speakers, but sad to say I've not had a chance to audition any of them.  I was really hoping for constructive feedback about how these different speakers compare and contrast.  In what way would you say they are on opposite ends of the spectrum?

Lastly, I'd jump at the chance to demo any of these.  If anyone is in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and happens to have any of these, I'd really appreciate the chance to audition them.  Thanks!

Well, the magnepans are great with acoustic music, guitar, piano and are excellent for horns, vocals and such.  Instruments tend to sound large.  I remember one guy commenting on my 1.6's saying that the guitar sounded like it was 10 feet tall.  It's all about the midrange with the MMG's. They can sound great with any type of music but they do sound like crap with poorly recorded music like most rock and older Cd's.  Basically, garbage in and garbage out.  Well recorded music in and great sound out. 

Maggies are touchy with room placement.  They need to be 2-4 ft out from the wall and corners of the room and they have a small sweet spot.  They sound better at mid volume levels (that is not to say that they sound bad at lower volumes).  They tend to like higher powered, high current amps for better dynamics in my opinion but I have heard them sound great with lower powered tube amps.  Well set up, there is nothing that can touch an MMG in its price range.

As far as box speakers and Zu's go, the sound is different.  You don't feel like there is live music in the room with you that you get from Maggies.

If you can find them, a used pair of Audio Note speakers would be perfect for an apartment.  They sound best placed in the corner of a room.  AN makes world class gear.

[Rclark]

Well, the magnepans are great with acoustic music, guitar, piano and are excellent for horns, vocals and such.  Instruments tend to sound large.  I remember one guy commenting on my 1.6's saying that the guitar sounded like it was 10 feet tall.  It's all about the midrange with the MMG's. They can sound great with any type of music but they do sound like crap with poorly recorded music like most rock and older Cd's.  Basically, garbage in and garbage out.  Well recorded music in and great sound out. 

Maggies are touchy with room placement.  They need to be 2-4 ft out from the wall and corners of the room and they have a small sweet spot.  They sound better at mid volume levels (that is not to say that they sound bad at lower volumes).  They tend to like higher powered, high current amps for better dynamics in my opinion but I have heard them sound great with lower powered tube amps.  Well set up, there is nothing that can touch an MMG in its price range.

As far as box speakers and Zu's go, the sound is different.  You don't feel like there is live music in the room with you that you get from Maggies.

If you can find them, a used pair of Audio Note speakers would be perfect for an apartment.  The sound best placed in the corner of a room.  AN makes world class gear.

You know, it really shocked me at first, and still does, the power and realism of horns when played through Maggies. They can really belt it out and it sounds so real.

I've found, modded at least, that there isn't anything they really won't do. Kickdrums no, or kettle drums, and anything with a heavy punch (well, you were looking at the DWM, right? that .. oughta do it and then some) is lacking that big whump, but bass quality in general otherwise is to die for, and the output is more than enough to satisfy, unless you are looking for over-exaggerated, Maggie's won't do that. For music, it's hard to ask for better. If you like the sound of an upright bass, you've found your speaker.

Also, you might not care but they absolutely excell at electronic music. Again, you'll need a sub, but it's great.

I have an Epik Legend sub, it's a sealed, dual opposed 12 design with very strong midbass output and extension to 20hz. With that in place, and they do blend extremely well, there's no genre that can't be played. You have it all.

[TrungT]

If anyone is in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and happens to have any of these, I'd really appreciate the chance to audition them.  Thanks!

If you are free on weekday, you can check out my little system. 

[JLM]

Considerations: small space, apartment situation, all genres, low spls important, bass important, and crack it on the weekends.  (Does that about summarize it?)

Why are all you options so big/space demanding?  And as mentioned above at nearly opposite ends of the spectrum (efficiency, presentation, technology)?

I'd reconsider small speakers with a sub (on an isolation platform if you have neighbors below).  As mentioned a small speaker (same with single driver designs) will image better in a small room, not overwhelm the space, and allow you to turn off the sub completely for neighbor friendly use.


Since you don't have an amp yet, I'd also throw out the idea of a fully active speaker (one channel of amplification dedicated to each driver).  Lots of advantages (extremely dynamic, very flat frequency response, unbelievable bass from a relatively small cabinet).  With active designs the crossover goes before the amps (allowing for a more sophisticated circuit), greatly improved efficiency (overall cost is lower too), and provides a direct/simpler load for the amp to "see" (for better synergy).  All this adds up to a less "colored" more accurate sound.  Professionals love them for all of the above, audiophiles shy away (no trophy amp to hunt for/brag about, too honest/not a favorite "flavor" of sound). 

One active example that instantly comes to mind is the Event 20/20 BAS ($900/pair).  Bass extends (honestly) to 35 Hz, clean/well defined mids/highs, great imaging, 14.75" x 10" x 12".  A very nice quality step up (with less bass in a smaller package) would be the Neumann KH120 ($1500/pair) that would work better with a sub.  Here's the links:

www.eventelectronics.com
www.neumannusa.com

[orientalexpress]

How about a Quad 57 or a 63? since u live in an apartment u don't need a sub,it's got plenty of bass ,It's perfect for low power amp.


lapsan

[Russtafarian]

Zu owner and fanboy here.  A pair of “Dirty Weekend” Omens for $1000 is a great deal given what this speaker can do.  It works well in small spaces and doesn’t require a lot of power. It’s capable of playing at dance club levels when desired, even with modestly powered tube amps.  It’s well built and will not break with normal or even aggressive use.

The speaker has a very immediate sound that energizes the room.  Contrary to some opinions, it sounds great with every kind of music.  It reveals lots of midrange texture and delivers significantly more mid-bass slam than just about anything else in the price range.  Upper midrange and treble is very clean but a bit diffused compared to 2-way mini-monitors.  Omen is extremely phase coherent and does a great job decoding complex spatial cues in the mix.  This translates to a big, open soundstage with images extending way outside the speakers.  It's a "bathe in the music" speaker, not a "count the number of players in each section of the orchestra" speaker.

And… Omen has an upgrade path to make it sound even better.  In stock form it can sound somewhat edgy with aggressive recordings. Replacing the $2 Erse cap and resistor on the tweeter with a $13 Jantzen Superior-Z cap and a $5 Mills resistor smooths out and opens up the top-end considerably.  It really transforms the speaker.  In this form, Omen sounds fantastic.


Russ

[I.Greyhound Fan]

For bookshelf's there are a lot of options.  Consider used Dynaudio's or Quads.    For new speakers- B&W 685's, NHT Classic 3's, PSB Imagine B's, PSB B6's, Wharfedale Diamond 10.2's, Pardigms, Monitor Audio Silver RX2's.  These are all good speakers for the money.  Pair them with a nice sub and a good source and amp and you will have a very nice system.


http://saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/new_speakers_monitor_audio.htm

Saturday also has B-stock on the PSB's for a good discount.

[dmcs414]

First of all, I really appreciate everyone's advice.  It's been really helpful.  I still feel somewhat indecisive, although I think probably I've ruled Magnepans out for the moment.  Cheap though MMGs are, they also would need a quality sub known to pair with the speed of the Maggies and an amp with loads of power which means $$$s, according to everything I've read. 

One thing I'm considering more strongly now, based on some of the advice here and research I've done in the interim, is going with bookshelf/stand-mounted speakers and a decent entry-level integrated; perhaps something like a Rega Brio-R and Rega RS1s, KEF Q300s, or even stick with floor-standing but just keep them smaller sized, like used Rega RS3s or the Tekton M-Lores.  Then perhaps later on, after I figure out how happy I am, upgrade one piece at a time and try something else.  Thoughts?

[SteveFord]

Yes, take Magnepan up on their in home trial.
See what you think for yourself.
Twenty years later mine are still here.

[Rclark]

Cheap though MMGs are, they also would need a quality sub known to pair with the speed of the Maggies and an amp with loads of power which means $$$s, according to everything I've read. 

it's far from an impossible task. My sub is $500 new and I bought it $300 shipped, used. I absolutely love them together, it sounds incredible. Also, some Rel's aren't super expensive either and they seem to be the highest rated brand for these.

On power, they still sound beautiful with less than an optimal amount and will get decently loud. The cool thing is that they are very revealing, so you can just play with amps as you go along. I wouldn't freak out about having the right amp, right out the gate with it. Try them out first, see how you like the sound, you can always play the amp game later, it doesn't have to be all at once.

[geowak]

First of all, I really appreciate everyone's advice.  It's been really helpful.  I still feel somewhat indecisive, although I think probably I've ruled Magnepans out for the moment.  Cheap though MMGs are, they also would need a quality sub known to pair with the speed of the Maggies and an amp with loads of power which means $$$s, according to everything I've read. 

One thing I'm considering more strongly now, based on some of the advice here and research I've done in the interim, is going with bookshelf/stand-mounted speakers and a decent entry-level integrated; perhaps something like a Rega Brio-R and Rega RS1s, KEF Q300s, or even stick with floor-standing but just keep them smaller sized, like used Rega RS3s or the Tekton M-Lores.  Then perhaps later on, after I figure out how happy I am, upgrade one piece at a time and try something else.  Thoughts?

Good luck in your quest. I would keep in mind that if you reason you'd be losing much bass with MMGs  and you would have to add a sub, you might not get that bass with standmount speakers unless you pay for it. You might find you want a sub with them as well. Well made standmount speakers will produce great bass, but maybe not budget ones, It's always a trade off. I have some Monitor Audio bookshelf size speakers that cost less than 1K, and enjoy them.
But my MMGs put out more bass than the MA speakers.

It gets back to the advice many have given here. It's best to listen to the speakers you are thinking about. I know dealers can get a bad rap, but sometimes a good one can match up components well and offer great tips. I do agree that a powerful amp can help with more bass, so make sure you don't have a wimpy amp.

My two cents here...

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I would not give up on the MMG's.  There are plenty of good sealed subs in the $500 range.  You could easily be in the $1100-1200 price range with the MMG's and a sealed sub from SVS, HSU, or Martin Logan.  If you go used you could even go cheaper.  There are plenty of excellent used Velodyne SPL subs, B&W, and Martin Logan subs such as the Original Dynamo and Grotto and newer Dynamo 700 subs.  I use an original Martin Logan Dynamo sub with my 1.6's in a 17x17x9 room.  I bought it used for $285, it sold for $700 new. There is plenty of nice tight and musical bass with this amazing compact sub.  You don't need to spend a lot of money for a nice musical sub for 2ch audio.  I have heard a quite a few subs in the $1000-1500 range that don't sound as good as my Martin Logan for music.  And many that can't integrate well with Magnepans. 

Give the MMG's a try with the 30 day trial period, you have nothing to loose.  If you like them, then you can eventually buy a sub.

Here are a few nice used subs-

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/subwoofers-hsu-vtf-3-mkii-and-vtf-2-mkiii-2013-04-10-home-theater-32701-altamonte-spring-fl

The above HSU subs are ported and come with tuning plugs for the ports. These are a great deal, I am thinking about buying one of these used - http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html

http://hifiheaven.net/store/Martin-Logan-Dynamo-700-demo&currency=USD

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/subwoofers-b-w-asw-608-8-black-2013-03-27-home-theater-53209

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/subwoofers-paradigm-ps-1200-v-4-light-cherry-2013-03-24-home-theater-27707-durham-nc

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/subwoofers-rel-acoustics-storm-iii-black-with-manual-2013-04-02-home-theater-60622-chicago-il

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/subwoofers-velodyne-minivee-10-subwoofer-2013-03-17-home-theater-97008

[sounddog]

I agree with SET Man about Zu. I heard them at RMAF last October and was not impressed (maybe OK for rock music, but that's not what I listen to most of the time). If I were you, I'd try to make the MMGs work. Maybe there are some other good choices within your budget (especially used), but it's hard to beat Maggies for the money.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

First of all, I really appreciate everyone's advice.  It's been really helpful.  I still feel somewhat indecisive, although I think probably I've ruled Magnepans out for the moment.  Cheap though MMGs are, they also would need a quality sub known to pair with the speed of the Maggies and an amp with loads of power which means $$$s, according to everything I've read. 

You really don't need a high powered amp for the MMG's.  You need a quality source and a reasonably powered amp.  I was using a Class D audio amp with my MMG's but I just gave it to my son to use in his system for a while since I don't listen to this system much.  I am using an old JVC VBK-8000 AVR receiver and my Grant Fidelity tube preamp/DAC as a source along with a Yamaha S-1800 SACD/DVD player as a transport.  While I have lost some resolution, the system still has plenty of transparency, musicality with a wide sound stage and is a pleasure to listen to.  My point is that you don't need a high end amp to get good sound.

What is your budget for an amp?  You can pick up a nice sounding used Adcom 545 amp for about $275-300 and a matching preamp or even the little Tube Grant Fidelity Preamp/DAC for $350.

Here a some good buys on used amps-

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-parasound-poweramp-hca-750a-2013-04-09-amplifiers-14468

Here is a Class D amp similar to what I was using.  It is a very dynamic amp and sounds great at low volume levels-

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-class-d-audio-cda-250-amplifier-bridgeable-125wpc-hooked-up-only-to-test-never-used-2013-04-04-amplifiers-43123-grove-city-oh

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-dynaco-400-mark-ll-power-amp-2013-04-11-amplifiers-29582-pamplico-sc

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-parasound-2125-2013-04-01-amplifiers-26041-moundsville-wv

Here is a great deal on a Creek Integrated amp- I believe that it is 85wpc at 8 ohms and 170wpc at 4 ohms, plenty of power and integrated to boot!  So it is a substantial amp to be able to  double its power at 4 ohms.  It also has a phono preamp! Damn, I should buy this thing for my son.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-creek-evolution-intergrated-amp-2013-04-07-amplifiers-32164-palm-coast-fl

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-rotel-1070-amplifier-2013-04-08-amplifiers-06615--2