[decal]

He started with .....I think!....

read again!

Exactly. An apology to topround is in order here catastrofe.

[catastrofe]

Exactly. An apology to topround is in order here catastrofe.

No apology forthcoming. . .

The "I think" is in support of the first part of the sentence. . ."I think the anti DD guys are right".  Mike then states that DD really doesn't sound that great.  He thinks the anti-dd guys are right, dd doesn't great.

If dd not sounding great is Mike's opinion, his statement should have been:  "I think the anti DD guys are right, I don't think/believe/feel (etc.) DD sounds that great. . ."

The way this is worded, it's an outright statement.  You may think this is nit-picky, but wars have been fought over lesser issues.

[rollo]

I was there as well as our club the Audiosyndrome was the host club. The difference in arms was staggering. The arm is made from epoxy not plastic with a Grado gold cart was put against the JM memorial arm.  The epoxy is applied at 1/1000 of an inch at a time. It takes 27 hours to build the arm. 
     Dynamics, tighter bass and a deeper, wider sound stage as well.  Focus presence and transparency was there in spades. I can only imagine what a Lyra Atlas would do with that arm, oh my !   The motor used is a special brushless affair used in submarines. Actual cost of motor alone is $4000 according to Harry W.
     Harry W. explained that he was not a fan of DD until he came across this motor used by the Navy. Dead quite, extremely accurate in speed with mass.
     A wonderful day had by all, thanks Harry and Matt.


charles
     

[Vapor Audio]

The arm is made from epoxy not plastic with a Grado gold cart was put against the JM memorial arm.  The epoxy is applied at 1/1000 of an inch at a time. It takes 27 hours to build the arm. 

Epoxy = acrylic = plastic.  So epoxy is just a thermoset plastic.

[vortrex]

$4k for a turntable motor?  sounds like some military pricing there.

"in the mid-1980s uncovering Pentagon waste and fraud by publishing reports, provided by whistleblowers, exposing $640 toilet seats, $7,600 coffee makers, $436 hammers and other overpriced spare parts used by the military."

[rollo]

Epoxy = acrylic = plastic.  So epoxy is just a thermoset plastic.

   Thank you for the correction. Never to old to learn 

charles

[neobop]

Maybe we should all lighten up a little with the DD vs belt comments.  I was trying to be comical with the threat of a launch, really. I'll save my W80 thermonuclear warheads for a much rainier day.  If you look at the big picture we're all on the same side (sort of), so this is friendly fire?  On the other hand, if provoked...  I for one, really don't care what Harry said about DD.  Didn't he say his rim drive was better than his belt?  He's just another guy making tables and I'm not a fanboy.

I read the article by Fremer, linked to on page 1.  There was an interesting comment after the article. Seems that kids are buying records like crazy and are a big part of increased record sales.  Sales have been increasing at a rate of 30%/yr, for the past 5 yrs.  That's amazing.  Funny thing is, according to the comment, most of these kids could care less about optimizing their record players, they just like records.

What does that say about fanatics like us?  I guess not much, but I'm glad they're buying records.
neo

[catastrofe]

It's all good. . .it's the music that matters anyway!   

[quietglow]

I read the article by Fremer, linked to on page 1.  There was an interesting comment after the article. Seems that kids are buying records like crazy and are a big part of increased record sales.  Sales have been increasing at a rate of 30%/yr, for the past 5 yrs.  That's amazing.  Funny thing is, according to the comment, most of these kids could care less about optimizing their record players, they just like records.

I know this may not be a popular opinion, but I think this trend is vastly more important than the focus (as seen at Axpona) on nurturing the audiophile next generation. The non-audiophile record buyer set is always going to be much larger than the audiophile set, and if we want records to listen to on our turntables, seeing any record buying contingent swell in numbers is fantastic news. Before the "demise" of film, the only people left shooting it were professionals and people afraid of digital. That market wasn't big enough to sustain production. We do not want that in record land, and the people buying records from Urban Outfitters and listening to them on whatever turntable they find at a yard sale are our best hope for continued new releases.

Sorry for thread cr*pping, but Neo's post inspired a hearty hear! hear! from me: we are all, indeed, on the same side and it's not even the one driving the vinyl industry.

[Letitroll98]

I think it goes to the old argument that direct drive can be every bit as musical as belt drive, it just costs a lot more to get it there.  We've had very nice sounding DD tables around for a long time, they're just very expensive, some models by Grand Prix Audio and Brinkman come to mind, I'm sure there's more.  If you're designing for the masses, belt drive is the accepted way to go.  The real breakthrough would be a reasonably priced DD motor that is completely cog-less.

[BobRex]

I think it goes to the old argument that direct drive can be every bit as musical as belt drive, it just costs a lot more to get it there.  We've had very nice sounding DD tables around for a long time, they're just very expensive, some models by Grand Prix Audio and Brinkman come to mind, I'm sure there's more.  If you're designing for the masses, belt drive is the accepted way to go.  The real breakthrough would be a reasonably priced DD motor that is completely cog-less.

If you take a look at the DD site that neo posted yesterday, all of the tables honored are the top line, ultra expensive (for the times) tables.  No mention of the cheaper Denons, nor the Kenwoods, JVCs, Sonys, hell, even Technics doesn't get a mention below the SP20. 

So apparently even a site dedicated to the technology doesn't recognize the cheap stuff.

[orthobiz]

Anybody notice a MAT on the PLATTER?

Paul

[BobRex]

Anybody notice a MAT on the PLATTER?

Paul

And did you notice the platter appears to be the ceramic coated platter?  (wrong color for Al)

[J-Pak]

Were there any comparisons with a VPI belt drive and the new DD?

The Wave Kinetics turntable (DD) is really good.

[TheChairGuy]

Mike / topround,

If your opinion on DD centers around the Technics Sl-1200; I could never get that deck to sound good, either.

But my experience with 4 very inexpensive DD's from JVC (once filling the empty guts with modeling clay) was excellent.

In fact I wasn't sure a belt drive at anything below maybe USD$3000 could best a circa-1980 DD from JVC that cost $200 back then...until the VPI Classic1. Tho my memory of the Townshend Rock back in 1988 or so was good too...tho I tend to discount this memory as it was before the time of DAD/CD and the perfect speed it exhibits.

The advent of digital technologies really made the comparison with the analog turntable important insofar as speed control went.

[neobop]

Were there any comparisons with a VPI belt drive and the new DD?

The Wave Kinetics turntable (DD) is really good.

Apparently not.  From the Agon thread - link on first post:

"Surprisingly, there was a large display of classic amplifiers, reel-to-reel tape machines, turntables, tonearms and more. One that caught my eye was a mint direct drive JVC TT-101 turntable (very much like mine). It was the target/inspiration for the new table - I would love to compare the two, but that wasn't possible. Maybe at my house some day."

The JVC 100 or 101 is one of those super-tables in the DD Museum.  It will be interesting to see what happens with this DD VPI and its $4K motor.  It seems like that's VPI cost, not retail?  I wouldn't put it past Harry to come up with another winner like the Classic.  If I had any money I'd put it on this being a contender for around $20K w/o arm.  I'll have to check and see if VPI Industries is a public corp.

As of now I have $10 on Harrys Dreamsicle to win in the 5th at Belmont. Place your bets now before the odds change.
neo

[ltr317]

Apparently not.  From the Agon thread - link on first post:

"Surprisingly, there was a large display of classic amplifiers, reel-to-reel tape machines, turntables, tonearms and more. One that caught my eye was a mint direct drive JVC TT-101 turntable (very much like mine). It was the target/inspiration for the new table - I would love to compare the two, but that wasn't possible. Maybe at my house some day."

The JVC 100 or 101 is one of those super-tables in the DD Museum.  It will be interesting to see what happens with this DD VPI and its $4K motor.  It seems like that's VPI cost, not retail?  I wouldn't put it past Harry to come up with another winner like the Classic.  If I had any money I'd put it on this being a contender for around $20K w/o arm.  I'll have to check and see if VPI Industries is a public corp.

As of now I have $10 on Harrys Dreamsicle to win in the 5th at Belmont. Place your bets now before the odds change.
neo

Yes, the 4k is wholesale cost. 

[ltr317]

Were there any comparisons with a VPI belt drive and the new DD?

The Wave Kinetics turntable (DD) is really good.

Yes, the DD had the belt drive down for the count.  I just submitted the report of the meeting to The Stereo Times, and it should be online in a few days.  Cheers.

[neobop]

I think it goes to the old argument that direct drive can be every bit as musical as belt drive, it just costs a lot more to get it there.  We've had very nice sounding DD tables around for a long time, they're just very expensive, some models by Grand Prix Audio and Brinkman come to mind, I'm sure there's more.  If you're designing for the masses, belt drive is the accepted way to go.  The real breakthrough would be a reasonably priced DD motor that is completely cog-less.

This perception (above) and Toprounds opinion are understandable, but completely wrong IMO.  If you look at tables from the heyday of vinyl, DD technology was always superior to belt.  Why would companies like JVC, Denon, Kenwood, Sony, Micro Seiki, Nakamichi,  Yamaha, Technics, Sansui, Pioneer (Exclusive), Onkyo, Marantz, Luxman have DD tables as their TOTL statement pieces, because they were inferior?  It wasn't just the top models that were superior, all these companies also made belt drives at one time or another and when you go down the line at compare performance vs price, DD wins.
There might be misc exceptions to this rule,  but they are exceptions and rule stands.

The Japanese made brushless and slotless motors a long time ago.  There's one in my Kenwood.  I'm not saying  it's as good as this $4K submarine motor, I'm just sayin. 
The Goldmund Reference was belt drive because it had a 35 lb platter.  They didn't have this US submarine motor and it was impractical to DD a platter that heavy.  Goldmund went to great lengths to correct the speed on the Reference, with computerized servo technology.  It even has a digital tachometer mounted on the plinth.  Goldmund's "budget" tables, the Studio, Studietto, and ST-4, were DD.  There was no belt drive at that time that could successfully compete with them.  Back then, most of the high end tables were less expensive, like Michell, Oracle, Linn etc.  Sota had a couple of vacuum tables that were pricey, but compaired to a Goldmund they were wow and flutter machines.  I need a $1K speed correction box to even listen to these ponderous sounding machines. 

Many idler/rim drive fanciers consider that different from DD.  I don't think I need to elaborate about their feelings on this.  The reality is, that start up companies are often under financed, but still have to sell their product to survive.  The perception that belt drive is superior, was a PR move to accomplish that.  Now, the technology applied to belt drive has improved to the point where it's pretty darn good and competitive, depending on specifics.  In the mid price brackets, belt drive wins by default.  If there's nothing to compare it to, they win. 

I guess I'll have to get ready for a fight, only I can't seem to find those thermonuclear warheads.  That's a hell of a thing to misplace isn't it?   Oh well, just have to use conventional arms.  One Graham Phantom for the MCs, no make that an ET-2, wait a minute a Triplaner should do the trick, or a Terminator might be excellante, how about a good old SME V or a Zeta to really get retro?   Maybe we should wait for this new plastic VPI arm.  I hear it's so good you should wear a diaper to audition it.
neo

[Syrah]

Slightly off topic, but Teres went through an evolution of rubber belt, then non-flexible nylon belt, then rim drive, then DD.  But as with VPI, it seems that well implemented DD brought it into mildly stratospheric price territory:

http://www.teresaudio.com/certus.html

You do have to wonder whether, if you took the price difference between a Classic (for example) and a new $10 - $20k table and spent it on cartridge, phono stage, etc., you might or might not be better off.

This reminds me of when I was 14 years old, saved my gardening and babysitting money and bought my very first stereo.  Competing theories of where to put your money, table, amp, speakers?  I tended to agree with the table and speaker advocates.