Custom Sub Arrived

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chargedmr2

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #60 on: 29 Mar 2013, 07:48 pm »
Guys,

Thanks so much for the help here.  This has been a great learning experience, and I realize that there is so much more to study up on.

I have now figured out how to use the EQ filters in REW (thanks Nuance).  What a great feature.  I can also see that there are a number of ways to adjust the curve. 

TJHUB - Do you feel that further processing the signal (via PEQ) is not necessarily worth the payoff of a flatter frequency response (in this case)?  I realize that frequency response is somewhat overrated as compared to other issues caused by the room, but I'm curious to know just a little more about your thoughts here.

Would it be possible to bypass the EQ entirely for music, but engage it for movies?  I like the idea of not having the signal go through multile rounds of DAC, but I will have to see how things turn out I guess.

Nuance

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #61 on: 29 Mar 2013, 10:06 pm »
I wouldn't bypass the EQ for music at all.  Not only will applying the PEQ filters flatten the response (which will be very noticable when listening), but it'll also reduce ringing/decay times.  Win win.

TJHUB and I will agree to disagree on this one. :)  Definitely pull those peaks down, and if your amp can handle it, experiment (with caution) with a boost at 20Hz.  You won't regret it.

Edited for poor grammar.
« Last Edit: 18 Apr 2013, 01:43 pm by Nuance »

chargedmr2

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #62 on: 30 Mar 2013, 12:02 am »
He's just flat out wrong! :)

I suppose the pun was intended :)

Well, I guess I will just have to experiment and see what works.  I'm sure I will try out a bunch of different EQ options and from what I understand, the 1124p can save presets, so presumably I could have one curve for music and another for movies, etc?

Back to the EQ options...have either of you (or anyone else) heard much about the FBQ1000?  It seems very similar to the 1124p, but I can't find much feedback (and there really is no pun intended here!) on it. 

Nuance

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #63 on: 30 Mar 2013, 02:50 pm »
I suppose the pun was intended :)

Well, I guess I will just have to experiment and see what works.  I'm sure I will try out a bunch of different EQ options and from what I understand, the 1124p can save presets, so presumably I could have one curve for music and another for movies, etc?

Back to the EQ options...have either of you (or anyone else) heard much about the FBQ1000?  It seems very similar to the 1124p, but I can't find much feedback (and there really is no pun intended here!) on it. 


LOL - you caught my pun. :)

Yes, you can definitely have a curve for music and one for movies, which is one of the great things about getting a dedicated PEQ.  You can apply whatever "curve" you want, or you can just EQ it flat and then adjust the subwoofer gain or subwoofer output on the receiver to your desired level.  You'll have many options with a PEQ unit.

Regarding the difference between the 1124p and the FBQ1000, here is what Behringer said:

"Thank you for the enquiry.

The FBQ1000 and DSP1124P are basically the same, the FBQ1000 being the newer version to supersede the DSP1124P.

In parametric mode you can setup filters manually and fine tune the standard ISO frequency within a tuning range of 1/3 octave (in 1/60-octave steps), so you can have frequencies fairly close.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,
Eddie
Your MUSIC Group Support Team"


SO it sounds like the FBQ is the DSP1124p's replacement.  I say get the FBQ1000.  Don't forget to pick up enough RCA to mono adapters when you're ready to connect it.



chargedmr2

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #64 on: 30 Mar 2013, 03:18 pm »
Perfect...that clears things up nicely.  Thanks for inquiring.

I'm currently running an RCA to XLR cable to my amp, so I assume that I could just purchase a second very short XLR -> XLR cable to connect everything up.

chargedmr2

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #65 on: 30 Mar 2013, 10:34 pm »
One more thought for those that EQ their sub(s).  Has anyone given consideration to the Symetrix 551e?  It's been long discontinued, but used ones are around (it seems to be recommended over at HTS forum).  It's an analog PEQ with 5 bands and it has the ability to set filters as low as 10Hz. 

Speaking of 10Hz, I was noticing how my measured response drops off sharply at 10Hz.  I'm guessing that Denon uses a high pass filter?  I don't think it's my amp. 

harley52

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Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #66 on: 31 Mar 2013, 01:11 am »
A $2500 sub and a good one at that being fed a signal that's run thru a Behringer. Why not just buy a booming sub and save yourself a lot of money. In other words. Good sub ruined by a piece made for the "pro" segment is the fastest road to regret. Good speakers and sub but S@@@ for electronics. Makes no sense to me. But, it's your money. Spend it as you see fit. Remember you get what you pay for.

Saturn94

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Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #67 on: 31 Mar 2013, 01:41 am »
...You'll notice once the EQ has been applied the bass response is a bit quiter than the response above the crossover.  All this means is that once you're finished applying the EQ and achieving the frequency response you desire you'll have to use the subwoofer output in the receiver (or the subwoofer gain on the sub itself) and turn it up a bit.  Some people like the bass just as flat as the rest of the FR, but some prefer it a little hot; I fall into the latter camp, with my bass being 3-4dB hot for movies and music (below the crossover).

Hi Nuance.  Didn't want to hijack the thread so I sent you a PM.  Sorry for the odd subject line....my goof.

chargedmr2

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #68 on: 31 Mar 2013, 02:45 am »
A $2500 sub and a good one at that being fed a signal that's run thru a Behringer. Why not just buy a booming sub and save yourself a lot of money. In other words. Good sub ruined by a piece made for the "pro" segment is the fastest road to regret. Good speakers and sub but S@@@ for electronics. Makes no sense to me. But, it's your money. Spend it as you see fit. Remember you get what you pay for.

Of course I understand the principle that you raise, but are you speaking from experience?  If so, can you elaborate on the sub and Behringer EQ that you have tested?  What effect did it have on the sound quality, specifically? 

Nuance

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #69 on: 2 Apr 2013, 12:57 pm »
A $2500 sub and a good one at that being fed a signal that's run thru a Behringer. Why not just buy a booming sub and save yourself a lot of money. In other words. Good sub ruined by a piece made for the "pro" segment is the fastest road to regret. Good speakers and sub but S@@@ for electronics. Makes no sense to me. But, it's your money. Spend it as you see fit. Remember you get what you pay for.

With all due respect, your statement is ridiculous, and it doesn't match my and many other's experience.  You have some sort of agenda here, and I recommend everyone just ignore it. 

harley52

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Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #70 on: 4 Apr 2013, 01:58 am »
I have an agenda? What would that be? :roll:

And from what I have read so far, I bet you don't hear any difference in components all things being equal.

The first thing I do to even out low end response is to buy two or more subs depending on the situation. Then if need be I go to dsp. As far as a flat response curve goes I wouldn't be boosting a 20hz signal as it requires the driver to make massive movement thus the x-max may  run out of linear motion, bringing on high levels of distortion. Plus it makes hugh demands on your amp, consinquently shortening its life.

I would suggest a Dspeaker product 8033. I think the price is around $400 new. Sometimes they show up on A-gon used. A suggestion to the OP. Instead of moving your sub around ,try putting the sub as close to the listening spot or right in the chair and walk around the room to listen for the better/best place it sounds to you. Can save you a lot of time.

Btw, has the OP talked to Jim Salk about your problems. He may be able to be of immense help. Just a thought.

chargedmr2

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #71 on: 4 Apr 2013, 05:22 am »
I have an agenda? What would that be? :roll:

And from what I have read so far, I bet you don't hear any difference in components all things being equal.

The first thing I do to even out low end response is to buy two or more subs depending on the situation. Then if need be I go to dsp. As far as a flat response curve goes I wouldn't be boosting a 20hz signal as it requires the driver to make massive movement thus the x-max may  run out of linear motion, bringing on high levels of distortion. Plus it makes hugh demands on your amp, consinquently shortening its life.

I would suggest a Dspeaker product 8033. I think the price is around $400 new. Sometimes they show up on A-gon used. A suggestion to the OP. Instead of moving your sub around ,try putting the sub as close to the listening spot or right in the chair and walk around the room to listen for the better/best place it sounds to you. Can save you a lot of time.

Btw, has the OP talked to Jim Salk about your problems. He may be able to be of immense help. Just a thought.

Harley,

I'm aware that two subs is generally better than one for in-room response, but I had a tough enough time convincing my wife that even one sub was necessary.  So, I will be working with only one for now.  My placement is also limited for similar reasons, but I tried all sorts of variations on the options I have.  The current location is probably the best I will get, and actually isn't too bad from what I can tell so far.  So, at this point I need to address my remaining issues with DSP, and live with the best result that I can get.  No need to bother Jim, as I don't have any "problem."  I'm just learning the best way to integrate this sub into my room with the help of others (probably the standard experience of sub owners...at least those that actually try to do it right).

My amp should be plenty capable of boosting the 20Hz range (within reason of course).  In addition, I believe that this sub can also take the additional demand of boosting in this region (I think its reputation alone should put this concern to rest).  Again, keeping in mind that I wouldn't try to add excessive boost to begin with.

The 8033 does like a nice product, but I was not really looking for an "automatic" solution (not that automatic is a bad thing).  I'd prefer the additional flexibility afforded by other options, though I wouldn't mind trying one out at all. 

Do you use one and have you had the chance to compare it to other options?  I did find some good reviews over at Home Theater Shack.

Nuance

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #72 on: 4 Apr 2013, 12:40 pm »
I have an agenda? What would that be? :roll:

And from what I have read so far, I bet you don't hear any difference in components all things being equal.

The first thing I do to even out low end response is to buy two or more subs depending on the situation. Then if need be I go to dsp. As far as a flat response curve goes I wouldn't be boosting a 20hz signal as it requires the driver to make massive movement thus the x-max may  run out of linear motion, bringing on high levels of distortion. Plus it makes hugh demands on your amp, consinquently shortening its life.

I would suggest a Dspeaker product 8033. I think the price is around $400 new. Sometimes they show up on A-gon used. A suggestion to the OP. Instead of moving your sub around ,try putting the sub as close to the listening spot or right in the chair and walk around the room to listen for the better/best place it sounds to you. Can save you a lot of time.

Btw, has the OP talked to Jim Salk about your problems. He may be able to be of immense help. Just a thought.

Well, when you make a statement in the manner you did, with the tone you did, it makes it seem like you have an agenda.  In this case, what could easily infer that this is your agenda: "Hey everybody, look at me.  I need attention, and I am smarter than everyone so listen to me."  :)  If that wasn't how you intended to come across, perhaps you should have thought things through before posting.  And then when you make foolish statements claiming I can or can't hear the difference between components...well, it's easy to write you off as someone with intentions to cause mischief.  Again, it was your approach. 

We already know you can smooth out the response with multiple subs.  If you read the thread, you'd already know that the OP did have the sub in close proximity to the LP, and the low end response was poor.  He tried different locations and found the best one to work with.  There is nothing wrong with applying EQ below the Schroeder Frequency, something Floyd Toole and Sean Olive themselves are proponents of.  It also doesn't matter that the Behringer is used in the pro audio arena.  It does what it needs to and doesn't add additional noise or distortion to the signal chain. 

Again I'll say, if you had actually read the thread you see that I warned the OP about boosting at 20Hz using a wide bandwidth filter, explaining it can cause amp clipping and possible driver damage.  He is, however, using one of the best drivers available paired with a powerful amplifier.  I know people who are boosting over 10dB at 20Hz using the same LMS driver with weaker amps in a larger room that have zero issues at reference levels.  Circumstances are different for everyone, so experimentation is key.  It is very possible that chargedmr2 will run into issues by using a wide bandwidth boost at 20Hz, but it is also possible he'll have no issues.  Remember, he isn't boosting a null.  So hey, why don't we let chargedmr2 weigh his options and make his own decisions, eh?

The 8033 is a decent unit, but it's not worth the extra $300 over the Behringer or MiniDSP unit.  It won't sound any different between 20 and 100hz either.

Finally, in this audio hobby you most certainly do not always get what you pay for, so your statement is incorrect.  I respect your opinions, but when you state them as fact and then make back handed critical comments towards others you come across as a troll.  Calm down and share your options in a respectful manner, just like the rest of us.

fishinbob

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #73 on: 4 Apr 2013, 02:56 pm »
Well, when you make a statement in the manner you did, with the tone you did, it makes it seem like you have an agenda. (snip)

The 8033 is a decent unit, but it's not worth the extra $300 over the Behringer or MiniDSP unit.  It won't sound any different between 20 and 100hz either.(snip)

Finally, in this audio hobby you most certainly do not always get what you pay for, so your statement is incorrect.
Your savings scenario has conveiniently left out the expense to buy all the other equipment you must also have on hand to incorporate the Behringer into your system. 
For myself, I would have to buy a laptop plus a soundcard, if my laptop didn't have the correct inputs, plus a spl meter and then a microphone just to get started. Then after a few (hundred) hours of tweaking fun I might be able to get close to what my 8033 did duting the fifteen minutes I was in the shower. :P
For me the extra money for the DSpeaker was worth every penny.

martyo

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #74 on: 4 Apr 2013, 04:34 pm »
Your savings scenario has conveiniently left out the expense to buy all the other equipment you must also have on hand to incorporate the Behringer into your system. 
For myself, I would have to buy a laptop plus a soundcard, if my laptop didn't have the correct inputs, plus a spl meter and then a microphone just to get started. Then after a few (hundred) hours of tweaking fun I might be able to get close to what my 8033 did duting the fifteen minutes I was in the shower. :P
For me the extra money for the DSpeaker was worth every penny.

Thanks for the info. Which particular 8033 are you using?

Austin08

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #75 on: 4 Apr 2013, 05:13 pm »
Your savings scenario has conveiniently left out the expense to buy all the other equipment you must also have on hand to incorporate the Behringer into your system. 
For myself, I would have to buy a laptop plus a soundcard, if my laptop didn't have the correct inputs, plus a spl meter and then a microphone just to get started. Then after a few (hundred) hours of tweaking fun I might be able to get close to what my 8033 did duting the fifteen minutes I was in the shower. :P
For me the extra money for the DSpeaker was worth every penny.

I agree but there are some point that others may argue.

1. A lot of people already got a laptop.
2. Is there a way to see the outcome before and after the work of the 8033???
3. Maually adjustment - The feature that a lot of guys find usefull.

Enough to said, I love auto ARC and  really want to  try the new dsp 2.0 for the sake of convenience but for the cost and the ability to maually adjust of the Behringer and Rew combo is still hard to beat.

Nuance

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #76 on: 4 Apr 2013, 06:23 pm »
Your savings scenario has conveiniently left out the expense to buy all the other equipment you must also have on hand to incorporate the Behringer into your system. 
For myself, I would have to buy a laptop plus a soundcard, if my laptop didn't have the correct inputs, plus a spl meter and then a microphone just to get started. Then after a few (hundred) hours of tweaking fun I might be able to get close to what my 8033 did duting the fifteen minutes I was in the shower. :P
For me the extra money for the DSpeaker was worth every penny.


True, but in this instance the OP already has all of that, which I already knew, hence my recommendation.  After all, he did take and post measurements, so we already knew he had REW and all the hardware necessary.  For an all-in-one solution there are better options than the MiniDSP or Behringer, of course.  100's of hours of tweaking is a bit of an exaggeration; it's more like 2 hours.

I am glad the 8033 is working well for you. :thumb:

martyo

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #77 on: 4 Apr 2013, 06:51 pm »
True, but in this instance the OP already has all of that, which I already knew, hence my recommendation.  After all, he did take and post measurements, so we already knew he had REW and all the hardware necessary.  For an all-in-one solution there are better options than the MiniDSP or Behringer, of course.  100's of hours of tweaking is a bit of an exaggeration; it's more like 2 hours.

I am glad the 8033 is working well for you. :thumb:

Can you help me with the better options for an all-in-one solution?

jparkhur

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #78 on: 4 Apr 2013, 07:00 pm »
Does the Velodyne SMS over on Agon for 250 work for this option.  I may have missed somethings, but at 250, could be a steal and a low cost fix.  Feel free to berate me..or flog..

Jon

fishinbob

Re: Custom Sub Arrived
« Reply #79 on: 4 Apr 2013, 07:21 pm »
Thanks for the info. Which particular 8033 are you using?
I have the 8033SII.