[doug s.]

St. Louis Public Radio (KWMU 90.7 FM) provides three HD channels in addition to its analog channel.  HD-1 is basically an NPR / BBC (nitetime) news channel which duplicates the analog channel.  HD-2 is an Exponential Radio channel which plays contemporary music.  HD-3 is a Classic24 channel (Minnesota Public Radio-produced) which plays classical music 24/7 with minimal commercial interruptions.

FM playback quality depends very much on the quality of the station's signal.  STLPR uses an all-digital Axia production system which is very good, and which uses NO signal compression.  (see: http://axiaaudio.com/ for more information)  EVERY commercial station in St. Louis today is using a digital production system and extreme signal compression to maximize their "loudness" which screws up their "analog" signal for ANY serious listener.  Because of this, STLPR's digital signals are likely better than any "analog" signal you can receive in this area.  In addition, the new MPEG-4 codecs that NPR uses are much better than the MP3 codecs which you may have heard in the past......this system's sins are those of omission.

Unfortunately good HD radios, like the pint-size Sony HD tuner, are very hard to find lately.  Fortunately today, many of these stations are also webcast.  With a decent internet connection and a good internet tuner, (like the Logitech Squeezebox products (RIP) or the Grace Digital SOLO), it is possible to pick up dozens of really good classical FM broadcasts from all over the world (eg. BBC3, KUSC, etc.), usually uncompressed at 32khz sample rate and 16 to 20 bit depth. 

It may not be as good as KFUO on a Pioneer or Sansui analog tuner in the good old days, but those days are over.  As a result, HD Radio is MUCH better than any analog tuner picking up the lousy compressed signals common in the analog spectrum today.

your statement that "those days are over" are simply not true, when it comes to non-commercial radio stations.  those days are FAR from over; there are still plenty of good non-commercial stations in many locales.  and the sound is still MUCH better than hd radio.  which is why one of the most popular mods to the "pint sized sony hd tuner" you mention, is to force it into analog reception on stations that it would otherwise receive in hd - because the analog signal of most non-commercial stations sounds better than the hd iteration. (this is probably true for commercial stations as well, but i dunno - i, and most of my fm-listening buddies don't listen to commercial fm.)

while i am not familiar w/the st louis stations, i suspect the stations i mentioned prewiously - kdhx, wsie, wlca and kwur - offer a sonic signature superior to anything awailable on hd.  and i would also wager that the st louis symphony broadcast, on kwmu's main channel sounds better on a quality analog tuna than on its hd1 wariant.  hd fm broadcasts are max 96kbps, and that's if there's only one hd channel.  a station like kwmu, w/3 channels has to reduce each channel's bitrate so the total does not exceed 96kbps.  as for mp3 vs the new mpeg-4, a 96 kbps hd radio signal's mpeg-4 is about equal to a 128kbps mp3.  diwide by 3 for a station like kwmu...  (kwmu might do 32/32/32, or 64/16/16, 48/32/16 or?)

doug s.

[dcbingaman]

There may well be a few non-commercial analog FM broadcasters left that care about the quality of their signals, BUT not very many.  You are lucky to find a couple you like.

I listen to the SLSO broadcasts almost every Saturday nite, (when I am not at Powell Hall), and I can tell you, my Logitech Touch internet tuner provides better sound than my vintage Sony FM tuner.  The signal from Powell Hall is down mixed from 5.1 to 2 channel then digitized and sent by microwave link to the station.  The signal is then processed at 24 bit / 48 kHz by the Axia system and sent to the transmitter site (signal hill) via microwave link.  The conversion, reconstruction filtering and FM modulation then takes place at the transmitter for the analog broadcast.  The HD channels are indeed split three ways at 32kps per channel, although this can be changed on the fly if required.  The MPEG-4 perceptual encoder is, however, remarkably transparent and does not sound compressed at all.  My point - most damage to the HD Radio signal you hear is inflicted by a human, not the technology or encoders.

The Internet signal uses a DTS variable bit rate IP encoder, so the signal you receive depends on the bandwidth of your gateway.  I use an AT&T U-Verse Gateway which provides up to 18MBps.  As a result, on most Saturday nites, i am pretty certain that I am receiving a 48 kHz / 16-24 bit signal which my DaySequerra MultiMerge sends onto my Meridian processor.  My Meridian subsequently converts to analog use their proprietary apodizing reconstruction filters.  I have never heard an FM broadcast that sounds nearly as good as this setup.

[doug s.]

dcbingaman, not sure what wintage sony you are using, but i suspect it either isn't a good one, or is significantly out of alignment.  otherwise, it would sound better on your slso broadcast.   

doug s.

[dcbingaman]

Doug,

It WAS a Sony ST-SA50ES, which I subsequently sold.  I am currently using the FM tuner in my Meridian G68XXD which outperformed it as well as my tricked out Pioneer TX-9800 (updated Murata ceramic filters, etc.) which I have also sold.  My guess is that both of these tuners are better than what most folks are using today, but i also know that the Meridian FM tuner is better than anything ever made in the US or Japan by virtue of its DSP-based filtering. (That includes the new DaySequerra professional models which are damn good.)

None-the-less, it is not as clean as the signal coming off the Web.

I am an RF engineer by vocation, and you will never convince me that analog FM will ever compete with digital from the web when you understand exactly how non-linear the whole FM transmission process really is - its a kludge at best.  The inter-modulation of the pilot and leakage of the IF filter alone adds double-digit distortion to everything above 10 kHz.....a lot of folks mistake this as "air".  It's not.  NONE of this crap exists in the digital signal - in fact, digital was MADE for radio.

 The only limits on HD Radio are the bandwidth limits imposed by the FCC and the commercial market place - specifically today, the HD channels utilize less than 1/10th the bandwidth of the analog signal and are transmitted at 1/10th to 1/100th the power level.  These limits won't last forever - the FM market is dominated by automobile listening.  When enough cars come equipped with HD tuners, the market could flip very quickly to all digital utilizing the full power and bandwidth of the stations license limits.  This will easily allow transmission of programs with DVD-Audio bit-rate and/or, literally tens of sub channels with CD bit-rates.  Mercedes, Lexus, GM Subaru, Toyota and many other market leaders are already equipping their newest models with HDRadio equipped audio systems.  It only a matter of time before these receivers become commonplace and drive the market to digital transmission....just like the recent switchover to digital TV.  I can't wait.

[Mr Peabody]

I wonder what the hold up is with HD tuners in cars, it's not like it's really new any more, we've had it a few years now, so long in fact the home HD tuners have less offerings these days.

It's also a shame StL radio don't use the HD stations to bring more variety, many are clones of the HD1 station.  94.7 offers something different, 96.3 at least has Jazz but it's mono.  I did find the Classical station, I'll have to see if that HD2 station changes genre or if it's always like what I heard, sort of World but some of the stuff sounded a bit New Wave.

[doug s.]

Doug,

It WAS a Sony ST-SA50ES, which I subsequently sold.  I am currently using the FM tuner in my Meridian G68XXD which outperformed it as well as my tricked out Pioneer TX-9800 (updated Murata ceramic filters, etc.) which I have also sold.  My guess is that both of these tuners are better than what most folks are using today, but i also know that the Meridian FM tuner is better than anything ever made in the US or Japan by virtue of its DSP-based filtering. (That includes the new DaySequerra professional models which are damn good.)

None-the-less, it is not as clean as the signal coming off the Web.

I am an RF engineer by vocation, and you will never convince me that analog FM will ever compete with digital from the web when you understand exactly how non-linear the whole FM transmission process really is - its a kludge at best.  The inter-modulation of the pilot and leakage of the IF filter alone adds double-digit distortion to everything above 10 kHz.....a lot of folks mistake this as "air".  It's not.  NONE of this crap exists in the digital signal - in fact, digital was MADE for radio.

 The only limits on HD Radio are the bandwidth limits imposed by the FCC and the commercial market place - specifically today, the HD channels utilize less than 1/10th the bandwidth of the analog signal and are transmitted at 1/10th to 1/100th the power level.  These limits won't last forever - the FM market is dominated by automobile listening.  When enough cars come equipped with HD tuners, the market could flip very quickly to all digital utilizing the full power and bandwidth of the stations license limits.  This will easily allow transmission of programs with DVD-Audio bit-rate and/or, literally tens of sub channels with CD bit-rates.  Mercedes, Lexus, GM Subaru, Toyota and many other market leaders are already equipping their newest models with HDRadio equipped audio systems.  It only a matter of time before these receivers become commonplace and drive the market to digital transmission....just like the recent switchover to digital TV.  I can't wait.

yust a few thoughts.  first, i think hd radio is on its way out.  it's an answer to a question no one asked.  it's struggling in the market place.  and fm is on its way out in cars as well - the industry is already in the initial phase of not offering radios in cars.  so car radio ain't gonna save hd.  maybe a taxpayer bailout will save it.   

i have owned meridian tuna, good stuff, for sure.  never tried their most recent offerings.  re: the "damned good" sequerra tuna, i queried them directly about their sonics.  the bottom line is they told me to stick to my analog tunas if i were truly interested in the best sonics.  that's info directly from sequerra.

dsp radio does have potential.  it's not there yet, due to compression, imo.  there are plenty of rf engineers over on the yahoo tuna forum where i participate.  of course, you are entitled to your opinions re: sonics - they are your ears, after all!      but your opinion is definitely in the minority.

doug s.

[dcbingaman]

Doug, I can't disagree with you on the demise of FM - it has been losing ground at an accelerating pace to all forms of digital media since 2007, but especially digital internet and mobile transmissions.  Most FM markets (commercial and NPR) are shrinking by over 2% per year, even as the population INCREASES.  Same goes for local, network and cable TV. 

Whether HD radio can bring FM broadcasting back is an open question, but I think the answer may be different in homes as opposed to cars.  Home audio systems are going "on-line" in a big way, and so, many people are simply turning their home FM receivers off for good, (analog and HD).  Ibiquity (HD Radio IP owner) has figured this one out and so is working almost exclusively on car audio products.

"On-line" is a tougher proposition to implement in a car, but subscription satellite audio is making some headway, (although with too much cost, compression and little or no local programming.)  Cellular mobile transmission may also be making some headway, although this can be expensive and I'm not sure the bandwidth is there to meet the demand that the wholesale replacement of AM/FM radio would consume.

We are, indeed, in a Brave New World, and my crystal ball is way too murky to predict where this will all end up.  Peace and Happy Listening !

[doug s.]

ibiquity is going down a dead-end street if it is focusing on car audio.  on-line is the future of car audio.

"A Cold, Harsh Reality For Radio
AM/FM Will Be Removed From The Dash
A Message from B. Eric Rhoads"
from:
http://ericrhoads.blogs.com/ink_tank/2013/03/a-cold-harsh-reality-for-radio.html

from the article:
...On the stage were three representatives of the automotive industry: one from Gartner Research, a highly respected tech research firm; one from the Silicon Valley offices of General Motors, where they design interactive experiences and new technology for their cars; and one who represents an industry association for the connected car. They were on a panel moderated by Buzz Knight of Greater Media, and they talked about the direction of in-car experiences, the digital dashboard, and what will be coming next to the dash of the car -- apps, Internet radio and audio in the car, and other things we knew were on the way. Then, suddenly, this statement was heard:
 
"AM and FM are being eliminated from the dash of two car companies within two years and will be eliminated from the dash of all cars within five years."
 
Gulp. Really? Did someone really just say that?
 
The panelists went on to say that young people don't use radio anymore, and automakers see no need to continue to put radios in the car. The kids want Pandora, Spotify, and other audio services, and if they want radio, they can get it on TuneIn or iHeart or a similar service...

doug s.

[dcbingaman]

Young People and Car Audio.  This is a big "yes but".....FM has a big advantage in that it is FREE.  FREE is very hard to beat, especially among the next generation who will likely have to accept lower living standards than their parents.

Of course for over half of those under age 35, cellular and/or digital mobile is FREE also, because someone else pays for it, (either an employer or, even more likely, Mom and Dad. See the latest Pew survey).  This is an untenable situation in the longer run, and subscription audio has never made it in the marketplace for any length of time, (unlike cable or satellite TV).

Bottom line, it is too early to write-off FM or HD Radio, particularly while the CPB continues to underwrite HD broadcasting to the tune of several $M a year.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Volvo has been making horrible AM radios for many years now. Based on the amount of unhappy people I deal with who are more than willing to spend money repairing their AM radios, I wouldn't be making any rash predictions about how long FM and SAT radios will be around.

Bob

[doug s.]

Young People and Car Audio.  This is a big "yes but".....FM has a big advantage in that it is FREE.  FREE is very hard to beat, especially among the next generation who will likely have to accept lower living standards than their parents.

Of course for over half of those under age 35, cellular and/or digital mobile is FREE also, because someone else pays for it, (either an employer or, even more likely, Mom and Dad. See the latest Pew survey).  This is an untenable situation in the longer run, and subscription audio has never made it in the marketplace for any length of time, (unlike cable or satellite TV).

Bottom line, it is too early to write-off FM or HD Radio, particularly while the CPB continues to underwrite HD broadcasting to the tune of several $M a year.

i am not writing off fm.  yust in the car.     re: hd radio, the only reason it hasn't died yet is that it's being subsidized.  while i do understand the power of money to create a market, i simply wonder how much longer corporations (and the taxpayers) are gonna continue pouring money down the hd radio rabbit hole.  as i said before, it's an answer to a question no one has asked.  and it has no traction in the market place.  folks simply are not interested.  of course, i admit a bias - i hope it dies, and it cannot happen soon enough.  i am sick of lo-rez audio garbage being foisted upon the consumer, starting with "perfect sound forever".

doug s.

[tshifrin]

Back to the original question; I've been using a JVC HDP1 portable tuner for late night classical listening, and it works just fine. By "late night," I mean not terribly critical listening, just background for quiet reading time, although occasionally I turn something up to enjoy. It sounds much better than the portable Insignia tuner I tried. I also use a Dual head unit in my car for HD radio, but again, that's not terribly critical listening. The JVC came with a wall wart and antenna for home use, and was well under your budget. I got mine from Amazon.


Tom

[Magnus]

I'll look out for a JVC, and some of the other options. My analog tuner is a Denon TU 280 I picked a few years ago on Craigslist. I have no idea if it's acclaimed, but it's met me needs. I hope it picks things up with my rather simple antenna, if I opt for analog. In the past, I've tried amplified antennas to purportedly pull in distant stations...but they always seem to fall short of my expectations. Hopefully, when the station goes full power tomorrow, I can pick it up without difficulty.

I'll see if I can audition a friend's digital receiver. Maybe that'll be the best approach.

Thanks for your insights. I'll welcome more if you've got 'em.

Steve

[Magnus]

Coda: I just looked up a little info on my receiver. If this info is to be believed, and the currency converter is to be trusted, I picked a bargain at $20!
http://audio-database.com/DENON-COLUMBIA/tuner/tu-280-e.html

32,000 Yen = $369.0793!

Maybe I'll just settle for making the most out of my analog. However, I'm still curious about HD. So insights are still welcome.

[neekomax]

Coda: I just looked up a little info on my receiver. If this info is to be believed, and the currency converter is to be trusted, I picked a bargain at $20!
http://audio-database.com/DENON-COLUMBIA/tuner/tu-280-e.html

32,000 Yen = $369.0793!

Maybe I'll just settle for making the most out of my analog. However, I'm still curious about HD. So insights are still welcome.

Oooooooh gold. I want!