Cartridges choices for the Amadeus

mick wolfe · « **Reply #40 on:** 28 Feb 2013, 12:02 am »

Quote from: threadkiller on 26 Feb 2013, 08:25 pm

$1895, I think.
Mick, there is a Cartridge Man for $1195 that is very musical.
Still might be a stretch.

Thx Threadkiller, but in the last 24 I've also picked up a used Dyna 20H from "sunnydaze". Bottom line ....my plate in now full for the time being and my hair is even beginning to hurt.

drubin · « **Reply #41 on:** 19 Mar 2013, 07:06 pm »

Has anyone heard an Ortofon with the Amadeus? A recent review of the Cadenza Bronze has made me curious about using it on the WTA.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #42 on:** 19 Mar 2013, 07:11 pm »

Read that Absolute Sound comparison? Check the comments at the end of the issue. Can't believe the reviewer didn't try these carts without a SUT.

drubin · « **Reply #43 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 08:17 pm »

Just read the comment from Garth. I had no idea that could be an issue -- is this common knowledge? I know my phono stage has a transformer input for the MC section and I assumed many of them do.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #44 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 08:38 pm »

As I understand it, SUT and LOMC matching is as much an art as a science. I don't have much experience with it myself.

I also have the impression from reading forum posts that an SUT can soften the sound of a cart, but those impressions could potentially be a result of a less than ideal cart-SUT pairing.

But IMO, I think it is very important to review a LOMC without using an SUT or both with and without an SUT in order to avoid being misled by the impact the SUT could be having.

As Garth noted, the review was likely doing a disservice to the Benz and Clearaudio LOMCs whose higher impedance potentially makes them less than ideal for an SUT.

threadkiller · « **Reply #45 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 09:59 pm »

Not having worked much with either of those brands I can't comment. Benz is gone, btw.
I've not heard an SUT soften a cartridge.
What you need to match, besides cart and SUT, is more importantly SUT and phono stage.
That's where it becomes critical. Some SUTs will overload the gain of the phono stage. Not good. When they match up, though, look out. Best of the best then...

roscoeiii · « **Reply #46 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 10:12 pm »

"Benz is gone"? Where are you getting this? I was just at AXPONA, and talked to the US distributor who said that there were just long wait times for Benz carts. And why would TAS review a Benz cart in their most recent issue if they were "gone"?

Not sure where that rumor got started. Unless you have seen some official announcement since AXPONA that I haven't...

vortrex · « **Reply #47 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 10:23 pm »

Quote from: threadkiller on 20 Mar 2013, 09:59 pm

When they match up, though, look out. Best of the best then...

this is the truth.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #48 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 10:34 pm »

Quote from: vortrex on 20 Mar 2013, 10:23 pm

this is the truth.

With no trade-offs? Audio seems to be a world of preferences and flavors, so I often become suspicious of claims like this.

Garth from Musical Surroundings' comments in TAS, certainly seem to suggest that not all LOMCs are ideally suited to SUTs. (due to high coil impedance). Garth also states that he does not prefer phonostages with transformers for LOMC, as Musical Surroundings does not prefer those designs. Not one phono stage with a SUT among the 15 they manufacture and market, according to his comment.

Again, I have no SUT experience myself. But I do find Garth's comments striking, and suggesting that perhaps "best" may be overstating things...

vortrex · « **Reply #49 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 10:52 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 20 Mar 2013, 10:34 pm

With no trade-offs? Audio seems to be a world of preferences and flavors, so I often become suspicious of claims like this.

Garth from Musical Surroundings' comments in TAS, certainly seem to suggest that not all LOMCs are ideally suited to SUTs. (due to high coil impedance). Garth also states that he does not prefer phonostages with transformers for LOMC, as Musical Surroundings does not prefer those designs. Not one phono stage with a SUT among the 15 they manufacture and market, according to his comment.

Again, I have no SUT experience myself. But I do find Garth's comments striking, and suggesting that perhaps "best" may be overstating things...

the only trade off I see is the $$$. it's not the cheap way out. I can't speak towards which carts work and which don't. as threadkiller says, when it is right it is incredible. whoever this garth guy is, sounds like he needs his hearing checked out.

threadkiller · « **Reply #50 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 11:07 pm »

You need to experience it for yourself. Then decide if it works for you or not.
And then comment.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #51 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 11:09 pm »

Garth is Garth Leerer, President of Musical Surroundings. He has been president of Musical Surroundings for 22 years, and has a BA and MFA in Electronic Music (whatever that may entail). And Musical Surroundings makes and markets some very highly thought of gear (http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/products.html).

I seriously doubt he needs his hearing checked out.

But he is in the Bay Area, so vortrex you may be able to check out his hearing yourself.

Quote from: vortrex on 20 Mar 2013, 10:52 pm

whoever this garth guy is, sounds like he needs his hearing checked out.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #52 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 11:14 pm »

Quote from: threadkiller on 20 Mar 2013, 11:07 pm

You need to experience it for yourself. Then decide if it works for you or not.
And then comment.

Hey, passing along opinions of established folks in the industry (or reviewers, or esteemed forum members) is a valid contribution too, IMO.

I do plan to eventually try SUTs, once I feel things are very settled in my system. With the need for careful SUT matching, it seems premature to dip into SUTs until then. I am certainly an advocate of hearing for yourself.

vortrex · « **Reply #53 on:** 20 Mar 2013, 11:39 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 20 Mar 2013, 11:09 pm

Garth is Garth Leerer, President of Musical Surroundings. He has been president of Musical Surroundings for 22 years, and has a BA and MFA in Electronic Music (whatever that may entail). And Musical Surroundings makes and markets some very highly thought of gear (http://www.musicalsurroundings.com/products.html).

I seriously doubt he needs his hearing checked out.

But he is in the Bay Area, so vortrex you may be able to check out his hearing yourself.

I don't really pay much attention to what these pro's think or what degrees they have, it doesn't help my listening experience at all. I understand some people might not like the organic, 3D, weighty, huge soundstage sort of sound (as evident by my first audio show last summer). in this case, these people should not get a SUT.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #54 on:** 21 Mar 2013, 12:00 am »

Well, like I said, he is local for you. Not sure if they have a showroom or not, but perhaps there is a possibility for you to investigate directly in the Bay Area.

And just because you may not have gotten "the organic, 3D, weighty, huge soundstage sort of sound" without a SUT, does not mean that it isn't possible to do so.

Mostly, I want to point out a few things:

1) that some listeners prefer SUTs with LOMC carts, others do not.

2) that there seem to be situations in which SUTs and LOMCs may not be ideal matches (the example of the high impedance LOMC carts in the TAS shootout, as suggested by the comments by our buddy Garth).

3) that certain carts and certain SUTs may be better matches than others (for example, this reviewer prefered a $650 SUT matched specifically for his mono Miyajima cart to a much more expensive $5000 Auditorium23 SUT: http://dagogo.com/robyatt-audio-ak-mono-phono-preamplifier)

3) that reviewers should probably evaluate carts separate from SUTs due to potential SUT-cart matching issues. Or more ideally, that reviewers evaluating LOMCs should have the capability to test a LOMC cart BOTH with an SUT and without.

sunnydaze · « **Reply #55 on:** 21 Mar 2013, 02:24 am »

Quote from: vortrex on 20 Mar 2013, 11:39 pm

I understand some people might not like the organic, 3D, weighty, huge soundstage sort of sound (as evident by my first audio show last summer). in this case, these people should not get a SUT.

Sign me up for that!!

And I agree.......
Who cares what these experts think??

Sometimes there's just too much hero worship, insecurity, and reliance on others in this hobby. Your ears are all you need.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #56 on:** 21 Mar 2013, 02:53 am »

Quote from: sunnydaze on 21 Mar 2013, 02:24 am

Sign me up for that!!

And I agree.......
Who cares what these experts think??
Sometimes there's just too much hero worship, insecurity, and reliance on others in this hobby. Your ears are all you need.

Not to mention too many assertions of "best" and "truth" without acknowledging limitations of an approach, personal preferences, or tradeoffs.

This happens on passive vs. active preamps, tubes vs. solid state, planars vs. boxes vs. open-baffle, vinyl vs. digital, Amadeus vs. anything remotely close in price, ncores vs. any amp in the history of mankind...

Awareness of the range of opinions out there is important in this hobby. Otherwise you risk ending up in an echo chamber of folks who share the same opinion, with little idea of what you may be missing.

And the opinions of others who you find trustworthy are also important, since we can't hear everything and others opinons can help us narrow down our options to a reasonable number of options for us to seek out and hear ourselves.

But yes, most important is to hear as much as you are able yourself. Preferably with music that you know intimately and, even better, in your own home and system.

vortrex · « **Reply #57 on:** 21 Mar 2013, 03:00 am »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 21 Mar 2013, 12:00 am

1) that some listeners prefer SUTs with LOMC carts, others do not.

2) that there seem to be situations in which SUTs and LOMCs may not be ideal matches (the example of the high impedance LOMC carts in the TAS shootout, as suggested by the comments by our buddy Garth).

3) that certain carts and certain SUTs may be better matches than others (for example, this reviewer prefered a $650 SUT matched specifically for his mono Miyajima cart to a much more expensive $5000 Auditorium23 SUT: http://dagogo.com/robyatt-audio-ak-mono-phono-preamplifier)

I think 1 is fairly obvious, everyone's ears/brains are different. I mean there are some people who think Rega tables are awesome. now explain that!

for 2, that's possible, which is why I initially stated that it's when you "get it right".

for 3, that's an extreme outlier case. just as someone posted that the $400 iPhono is better than his mega $$$ Shindo. same as some other guy who said his $800 Orca speakers are better than mega $$$ Tannoy. now I am definitely not saying it's all based on dollars, but come on...

roscoeiii · « **Reply #58 on:** 21 Mar 2013, 03:15 am »

Yeah, no major disagreement with any of that.

That wild mono SUT example may be extreme but it nicely illustrates how important it seems SUT matching can be (both with the cart and the phono stage as noted by an ACer above).

threadkiller · « **Reply #59 on:** 24 Mar 2013, 01:47 am »

Oops, apologies to Benz. Not gone, Rosco, you were for once correct, just having problems getting things for quite some time. Still haven't heard one I've liked, though. That being said, as the great LD would say, I've always got an open ear. Now Lyra, on the other hand, don't get me started.... :lol: