[Hear Clifford Brown]

Rclark, just sent you a pm

[Rclark]

Oh, just read it. You're gonna be a very happy man.  Ncores are not run of the mill, old tech class d, they're more like the definitive, next generation class d amp.

[Letitroll98]

Can't see that there would be a problem with decay when you have something as high speed as the Ncore. Or micro detail on an amp that is basically all about micro detail. Yeah, those are basically some of the main strong points of the amp, lol, so that would be kind of strange.

To Clifford Brown, which state do you live in? If you're in Washington you're welcome to come listen.

A switching amp becomes less fast as the frequency goes up.  I wouldn't expect you to understand this, or actually hear it in your system as Maggies roll off quite sharply in this region.  However the N-Core is one of the better applications in this regard, I also liked the Cherry amps very much.  Others are bothered by the high frequency performance more than I, I don't know whether over time it might prove irritating, but I didn't have a problem with it during my listening trial.  As with your generous offer to Cliff, the best answer is to listen for yourself. 

[Rclark]

Interesting. I don't think it applies to the Ncore's switcher though, because, I've run several sets of speakers on these Ncores now, other than Maggies, and there wasn't anything you are describing. They are as fast and lucid as a scalded ape. About 99% of the reviews are also "best amp I've ever heard regardless of topology", so I dunno man? *shrugs*. Some of the guys on this very forum replaced very expensive, modern tube amps with them.

Anyway, interesting point about old tech switchers. The switcher in the Ncore is a modern marvel. It even provides its own power conditioning, to the exclusion of any external devices.

Either way, the OP is gonna get to swing by in about a month and come check them out. He's also getting Magnestand mod on the MMG too, so he'll be able to see mine.

[neolith]

I bought a W4S ST-500 to replace a PS Audio HCA-2 which I was using on the high end (paired with a Bryston 4BST on the bass - active biamp). I was overwhelmed out of the box. The resolution and imaging was outstanding and the HCA-2 is no slouch. About 4 months later I decided to get a 2nd W4ST-500 for the bass and sold the Bryston. I think I would give the Bryston a slight edge on "oomph" but the W4S outperformed on musicality and again on resolution and imaging. The sound stage is very satisfying as well and the pair of W4S's definitely outperforms my prior setup. Granted a total 2200 W (550 wpc @ 4 ohm x 4) is a bit much but you know those Maggies are power sluts. .  BTW I am using MGIIIa's that are heavily modified (the only thing original at this point is the bass-mid panels).  IMO your MMG's will smile if they get to hookup with a W4S.   FWIW, class D's don't sound like tubes but they don't sound like class A/B sand amps either. The power they provide is ideal for Maggies  and there is no stridency, dryness that solid state amps can be guilty of.  I never used the Bryston 4BST full-range but reports are that they tend to be dry, not so much with the newer models (SST and beyond). 

[jk@home]

That's the biggest problem with my old Aragon amps, the high end is dry, even with a tube buffer. Too flat and un-dimensional, whatever the proper audiophile term is  . Read about the issue years ago in the Audio magazine review of the 8008BB, and sure enough it's there.

That's one of the reasons keeping me from doing the PLLXO deal. Double Aragons probably won't sound as good as a single Wyred 4 Sound.

[Gradofan]

Yes... I was about to buy the STI-500 for Maggies and other inefficient speakers, because the reviews / comments indicate they compete with the very best.  But, I learned W4S is about to update their older amps to use the newer ICE modules they use in the new iMINT over the next year.  So, I decided to wait until then. 

In the meantime... I ran across the Class D Audio SRS-470C amps - which get even better reviews / comments than the W4S amps... and... I bought one to try out. 

We'll see how it does... but... I expect it will prove to be the "Value-priced, Giant-Killer" that the reports say it is. 

I prefer the sound of tubes also... but... tube amps with sufficient power to drive Maggies well... cost a "Kings Ransom."  If I think I want more "tube distortion" to improve the sound, I'll use a tube pre-amp, or tube buffer - starting with my Monarchy Audio M24 Tube DAC / Line Stage. 

We'll see...

[Hear Clifford Brown]

Very interesting.  I wonder if this is the new W4S amp Gradofan mentions:

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-wyred-4-sound-mamp-250wpc-mono-block-fully-balanced-2013-01-29-amplifiers-93422-atascadero-ca

It doesn't appear to be on their site yet.

[MGbert]

Yes... I was about to buy the STI-500 for Maggies and other inefficient speakers, because the reviews / comments indicate they compete with the very best.  But, I learned W4S is about to update their older amps to use the newer ICE modules they use in the new iMINT over the next year.  So, I decided to wait until then. 

In the meantime... I ran across the Class D Audio SRS-470C amps - which get even better reviews / comments than the W4S amps... and... I bought one to try out. 

We'll see how it does... but... I expect it will prove to be the "Value-priced, Giant-Killer" that the reports say it is. 

I prefer the sound of tubes also... but... tube amps with sufficient power to drive Maggies well... cost a "Kings Ransom."  If I think I want more "tube distortion" to improve the sound, I'll use a tube pre-amp, or tube buffer - starting with my Monarchy Audio M24 Tube DAC / Line Stage. 

We'll see...

Well, my interest is peaked.  Please keep us posted!

MGbert

[srb]

Very interesting.  I wonder if this is the new W4S amp Gradofan mentions:

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-wyred-4-sound-mamp-250wpc-mono-block-fully-balanced-2013-01-29-amplifiers-93422-atascadero-ca

It doesn't appear to be on their site yet.

Yes it is on the W4S site.  They just forgot to link it to the photos on the homepage but it is under Products > Mono Amplifiers.  http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/802459

Steve

[Rclark]

For a retail amp, I like what you get there for the money, if it reviews well too. Looks like lots of good clean power. Don't care for the style of case but that's just me.

I took a risk with mine diy Ncores, but if the Ncores never existed, I'm sure my attention would have otherwise been drawn to am amp like this W4S. Especially as a Maggie owner in need of big power.

[Hear Clifford Brown]

I agree on the looks of the case, but it comes in all black which looks better.  However looks don't matter as much to me anymore. 

[Letitroll98]

Interesting. I don't think it applies to the Ncore's switcher though, because, I've run several sets of speakers on these Ncores now, other than Maggies, and there wasn't anything you are describing. They are as fast and lucid as a scalded ape. About 99% of the reviews are also "best amp I've ever heard regardless of topology", so I dunno man? *shrugs*. Some of the guys on this very forum replaced very expensive, modern tube amps with them.

Anyway, interesting point about old tech switchers. The switcher in the Ncore is a modern marvel. It even provides its own power conditioning, to the exclusion of any external devices.

Either way, the OP is gonna get to swing by in about a month and come check them out. He's also getting Magnestand mod on the MMG too, so he'll be able to see mine.

Yes, it applies to the N-Core amp as well, it's the very nature of Class D amps.  The N-Cores do a very good job of moving the switching rate higher and farther away from the audio band, but it cannot do so entirely as of this date (there is possible new technology on the horizon that may make this argument moot).  N-Cores also do a great job of eliminating RFI noise from the audio bandwdth.  As I said, for myself, it proved to be a good tradeoff and I liked the overall sound of the amps.  Several people, including people I listened to your amps with, the ones you now own, had enough problems with high frequency issues to push them off being interested in the amp. 

It's very gracious of you to offer your hospitality to those near you so they can hear for themselves.  I offer the above only as a cautionary proviso to those you've opened your doors to, for them to listen for something I didn't hear at first blush, and honestly only put my finger on after someone pointed it out to me.  My assessment was yeah, I can hear what you're talking about, didn't really bother me all that much.  They were more upset about it.  I would also note the high frequency anomalies were not very evident on MMG's, but were more pronounced on dynamic speakers that have much less HF rolloff that the MMG's.  Your new friend should make up his own mind, it's just helpful to have as much information as possible without being shouted down by (word we're not allowed to use anymore on AC)'s. 

It would be helpful getting your points across if you weren't such a (word we're not allowed to use anymore on AC) about every product you buy.  IMHO calmly explaining the benefits and drawbacks would go much farther in promoting your agenda and getting other people to see your side of things.     

[Rclark]

Yeah, I don't buy it though. I've read several cases over on the diy thread and elsewhere of people having such an issue and then they go and change some cables or something and holy moly problem solved, incredible amps, etc.

I've had other speakers in here as well and don't hear any, what did you say. There are people running them with very high efficiency speakers and love them.

I also don't really have stacks of gear inbetween my source and my amps. Just a volume knob, basically. Maybe you had some distortion in your system, the Ncores would amplify that.

So far these amps have taken on and reviewed against much more expensive stuff, and against other topologies as well, and has consistently come out as a top performer.

.... There are very, very few negative reviews on this amp, let's be honest now. Most of them are positive and quite impressive to read, actually, the gear some of these people have owned. The only negative ones I've come across are found here. Those were also predictably received. So I take comments with a grain of salt, especially things like "lack of detail." It just sounds made up.

[josh358]

I would also note the high frequency anomalies were not very evident on MMG's, but were more pronounced on dynamic speakers that have much less HF rolloff that the MMG's.

Minor point, every response curve I've ever seen of the MMG's shows them to be essentially flat to 20 kHz.

1 meter:



In room:

[jult52]

It looks like you went in another direction than the Wyred 4 Sound but thought I'd respond since I use the W4S ST-500 with my Magnestand MMGs.  I'd characterize the W4S sound as smooth, very neutral.  Instead of the technical problems with higher frequencies - which I think sound terrific on the amps - the issue I'd highlight is a certain sameness in the bass register, pointing to a certain lack of detail.  But this is a very good amp at an attractive price. Mates well with passive preamps, which I believe in strongly.  I'm not a loud music freak but the W4S never even break a sweat at high volume so there is no shortage of power there. 

There is a Positive Feedback review of the W4S ST-500 that I would look up if you are interested.  The reviewer owned Bel Canto e.One Reference 1000 mono amplifiers, which are highly regarded, and thought the two amps sounded very very similar. 

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/wyred4sound.htm

[Rclark]

Another with Magnestands and big amps, great. I have them too and Clifford here bought MMG's with the intention of doing it. Do you have some good pictures of yours?

I don't really post mine much because the cell phone camera just does not capture them. But they are stunners.

(Clifford I think the W4S do look interesting. But when you get to come over you will hear the Ncores as well, and hear that the only "issue" is how awesome they sound -at all freqs).

 I think the best bang for buck on the W4s roster has got to be that big stereo amp.

[Hear Clifford Brown]

Thanks for responding jult52 because my MMG's will be getting the Magnestand treatment, and I'm still considering W4S amps.  I think their new mAmp mono-blocks look like an interesting possibility.

http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/802459

Want to hear those Ncores first however.

[Letitroll98]

Yeah, I don't buy it though. I've read several cases over on the diy thread and elsewhere of people having such an issue and then they go and change some cables or something and holy moly problem solved, incredible amps, etc.

I thought you said cable sound was BS.   

I've had other speakers in here as well and don't hear any, what did you say. There are people running them with very high efficiency speakers and love them.

What would high efficiency speakers have to do with anything?   

I also don't really have stacks of gear inbetween my source and my amps. Just a volume knob, basically. Maybe you had some distortion in your system, the Ncores would amplify that.

That's really bad form and insulting.  I don't do that with you, please refrain from using the tired old cliche of the "your system sucks" argument.   
 

So far these amps have taken on and reviewed against much more expensive stuff, and against other topologies as well, and has consistently come out as a top performer.

.... There are very, very few negative reviews on this amp, let's be honest now. Most of them are positive and quite impressive to read, actually, the gear some of these people have owned. The only negative ones I've come across are found here. Those were also predictably received. So I take comments with a grain of salt, especially things like "lack of detail." It just sounds made up.

I never said "lack of detail", I said just the opposite, as usual, you don't read and you don't understand.  What I said was, "some have noticed a problem with decay and micro dynamics in the upper regions."  I also said I liked the amps just fine and if you mine back and re-read my review in the tour impressions thread you'd find that I gave them high praise.  In posts after that review I did agree with one caveat for one area of reproduction that might bother some people, those people seem to generally come from using tube amps, like the OP is doing.  It's a reasonable statement, he said so himself.  However as happens with discussions with Rclark about anything he owns, any tiny negative statement has to be blown up out of proportion.  Jeez, chill dude, he's prolly gonna love the N-cores.  I mentioned one small area of disputed SQ that he might listen for when at your home.  It will be okay, let it go and let Cliff decide for himself, seems like he has operating grey matter.

Minor point, every response curve I've ever seen of the MMG's shows them to be essentially flat to 20 kHz.

Point taken Josh.  I was going by the curves I've generated that matched other's posted in forums.  My in room stuff shelves down above 18kHz and a few of us agreed, my near-field measurements are pretty flat.  I remember because there's like two professional reviews with curves posted with one of them being the wall mounted model, the other is the Enjoy the Music ones you posted.  Someone needed to see the curves for some reason and there was some discussions etc.       

[Rclark]

That's all fine 'roll. No I believe cables make differences, slight ones. I demo'd a bunch last year. Power cords, IC's, all around. I just don't believe that there is any issue with the amp that, if there is one, can't be solved with a minor tweak, according to others who had heard something slightly amiss. That's my opinion, and validated by my own listening, and the read experiences of over 100 others with systems far nicer than mine.

There isn't any issue with the amp, but occasionally there is a system mismatch. The only legitimate gripe some people might have is the amp doesn't produce any syrupy sweetness (or less than syrupy sweetness), which does make them perfect as an amp in my book, because those looking for a tube sound can add a buffer, and often do. (not saying all tubes are sweet, but if any gear is ever described as such, it's tubes).

The reason I bring up high efficiency systems that people run is to show that there are people with highly efficient, super dynamic systems, that are quite pricey, and they aren't complaining about a sonic deficiency, but rather have gone ahead and sold their previous, high end, amps in favor of these.

I bring up the simplicity of my system to emphasise why I'm not also experiencing what you apparently did.

Just to clarify what I said, I'm not arguing with you. Have a nice day.