[DMurphy]

Hi Frank.   I pretty much agree with your assessment of the 52's.  I've been working with them extensively to see whether an inexpensive crossover upgrade was needed or feasible.  I think I'm more bothered than you are by the veiled and recessed character of the upper midrange and lower treble.  The tweeter definitely runs hot, although it is rolled off pretty sharply and early at the bottom end.  If it were merely hot, the fix would be trivial.  But the larger problem is that the midrange is having to handle more of the lower treble than it can do transparently.  I've designed an add-on crossover mod that hands over more of the chores to the tweeter and rolls the midrange off more steeply.  That definitely fills things in and adds detail.  But I may be asking more out of the tweeter than it can handle.  So far I've only listened in mono because I tipped my other tower over and messed up the tweeter.  I just got a replacement speaker and am wiring up a pair of the mods this afternoon.  I'll let you know whether I've improved things or just created a different kind of problem.

I just wanted to close the circle on this.  I've put in waaaaay too many hours on this project and ended up ordering three samples--quite an investment in time and $$$$.  As for the stock unit, I can see how people would like these for home theater.  The tipped up top end might add to the excitement and make dialogue more intelligible.  The issues I have with the upper midrange would be much less noticeable on soundtracks than on heavily scored music selections.   For serious music reproduction, however, I just can't get past the blurred nature of the upper midrange and lower treble.  The large midrange driver is being overtaxed, and the tweeter isn't being given enough to do.  My add-on circuit did help in this respect, but there are two fatal problems.  First, it's just too much trouble to install.  I wouldn't want to wish what I went through on anyone.  There isn't enough room to work, and there's too much splicing and dicing.  Second, no two of the 3 samples I bought measured alike.  Two were moderately different, and a third was very different.  The tweeter was the culprit.  It's lower end extension and frequency response profile was inconsistent, and that left me without a single target to aim at.  One of the tweeters had elevated harmonic distortion and rolled off much sooner than the others.  I suspect the inconsistencies stem from nonuniform application of cooling fluid in the voice coil.   The speakers still had a similar sonic signature, and I'm not sure you would spot the issue in home theater.  But the QC issues are serious enough to discourage me from offering a crossover mod.   I ended up replacing the stock tweeters with two venerable Vifa D27 silk domes, which fit perfectly.  I adjusted my add-on circuit for the Vifa's, and the speakers now sound pretty much spot on.  I've attached a frequency response taken at a normal listening position--a little above the tweeter axis and slightly off axis horizontally.   The highs are flat, and the tweeter performs well lower down to add detail and transparency to the sound.   If anyone is intersted in buying the result, you can have them for $100 each, which is less than I paid and includes the new tweeters and the extra crossover circuitry.   I really don't need any more speakers. 

[avahifi]

My Pioneer SW-8MK2 powered "subwoofer" arrived yesterday, $111 and free shipping from Best Buy.

We have it set up this morning with our pair of SP-BS22 speakers mounted on Sanus lowest price stands.

At the prices I paid, we now have a complete three piece satellite, subwoofer system for all of $275 including the stands.

The SW-8MK2 is a self powered unit with a built in 100W amplifier.  It has back panel controls for phase, crossover frequency, and level.  It also has a three position switch for either always on, music sensing on, or standby.  It has both line and speaker level inputs, although the speaker level inputs are the dreaded spring loaded push the speaker wire in the holes type.

It has an 8" woofer firing down from the bottom of the enclosure, with a large diameter front port and a little blue LED on the front side.

Matching it to the main speakers is done by ear.  Adjust the controls until it sounds right to you, and of course position in the room will make a big difference too.  There is no "right or wrong" guidelines for it, just play with it until it sounds right with your speakers.

In my sound lab, I have the volume set just under half, the crossover at about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom, the phase switch set to zero, and the woofer itself out in the room beside one of the stand mounted BS22s.  It is being driven from a Fet Valve hybrid preamplifier's second set of line level outputs.  The main speakers are being driven by a Synergy 240 amplifier. This quickie setup seems to be useful for us.

In some systems a Harrison passive high pass filter might be useful.  These are available at reasonable prices from Parts Express.  These would be installed in line with the signals from your preamp to the main power amp to keep deep bass out of your small main speakers.  We are not using them at this time, but I might order as set after I get an answer from Parts Express regarding how much the input impedance of the amplifier used affects the pass frequency of the filter.  I have found no data about this so far.

Anyway, back to the SP-BS22 and SW-8MK2 system. It is one remarkably good system!  Easily good enough to draw you into the music and ignore the electronic and mechanical parts and just enjoy the music.  And this is exactly what your audio system should do for you.

Right now we are listening to a Telac CD of Travelin' Light with great tube player Sam Pilafian.  The little system is doing a great job with.

The bass response of the SB-BS22 is way cleaner than I had expected and it caries a very low frequency tune quite well, it is definitely not a "boom box".

I call it really recommended to add a useful low frequency dimension to your small speakers.  What the heck, at $159 list price and often discounted to one third off, you really can't go wrong.

Another winner, Mr. Jones.

Frank Van Alstine

[jackman]

Dennis,
I'm sorry to hear the inconsistency of the stock tweeters prevented you from being able to recommend a crossover mod.  The D27's you wound up using are most likely several tiers higher quality and at least ten times more expensive than the stock tweets. Your asking price for the modded speakers is an insanely good deal.

Do you have any plans to mod the bs22 monitors or has this experience soured you on Pioneer speakers?  I like the 22's for the price but they use the same tweeters and I'm not sure they are worth upgrading if they have similar QC issues.

Cheers

Jack

[DMurphy]

The variation I found in my sample of 3 was a little disturbing, but it was a small sample.  It's hard to judge just how serious the issue is.  But even if the tweeters had proven consistent, I still
wouldn't have offered my mod.  It's just too complicated to install, paticularly in the cramped cabinet.  As things go, the D27 tweet is very inexpensive.  It's just a solid workhorse.  I have no plans to try a mod
for the 22.   There's no indication that it needs one.  It's a much simpler design and I'm sure AJ did a fine job on them. 

[charmerci]

The variation I found in my sample of 3 was a little disturbing, but it was a small sample.  It's hard to judge just how serious the issue is.  But even if the tweeters had proven consistent, I still
wouldn't have offered my mod.  It's just too complicated to install, paticularly in the cramped cabinet.  As things go, the D27 tweet is very inexpensive.  It's just a solid workhorse.  I have no plans to try a mod
for the 22.   There's no indication that it needs one.  It's a much simpler design and I'm sure AJ did a fine job on them.

Do you think that using a D27 tweeter and a standard 2500 hz x-over
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-142

would improve the sound of the 22?

(Obviously, it's just conjecture but you have heard the same tweeter.)

[DMurphy]

I think it would be a terrible idea to use an off-the shelf crossover on the 22's, even with the new tweeter.  I'm sure AJ did a much better job, and the superiority of his crossover would more than make up for any differences in the tweeters. 

[Donald]

OK guys, here's the deal. After reading about the little bookshelves for about 2 months, I waited for a sale at BB or Amazon. Do I have a need for these? Absolutely not. But for $90, my curiosity got the best of me. My head congestion is finally cleared up enough to where I can hear highs again. So, I thought I would see what all the hype is about.

Picked them up earlier in the week. Hooked them up about an hour ago. Still breaking in. These are some pretty small bookshelves. Cued up a Chesky recording of Sara K that I play on a regular basis on my big rigs. First my thought was, were these really only $90? Second thought was, these little bookshelves actually nail the most important of the audio spectrum pretty darn well, which is the midrange. Sara K sounds very natural. A sax cuts in and sounds almost live. This sax cut comes close to almost duplicating the big rigs at a reasonable volume. The highs are also fairly clean, but not nearly as crystal clean as the big rigs. However, the highs will not make you run from the room. They are pretty darn good. The bass: well their is some there, more than you would expect from such an inexpensive bookshelf with a 4 inch woofer. Sure the ported design helps. But don't expect chest thumps.


Next up Dave Clark, Take 5. Drums sound very natural. Alto Sax cuts in with a natural sound. Not a live sound by any means, but much more than I would expect from such a cheap speaker. Cued up a James Taylor cut. Male voice sounds good. Again, the total midrange is impressive.

Still playing, but quite surprised. If anyone is looking for a garage, small bedroom, den speaker or speakers to give to your kid as a starter system, there is no disappointment here. Just don't expect chest thumping bass or volume that will blow you against the wall. Make no mistake, this is an audio bargain not to be missed, if you have a need. Or if you are curious just like me, spend the $90 and smile as you listen to these little gems. Now, what am I going to do with these? Probably will give to my son for a garage system for the new home he is building.

[dlparker]

I just sprung for the 90.99 deal from Best Buy. I'll be comparing these to a pair of Hsu HB-1 Mk2s, so it should be a fair comparison. I'm driving them with all AVA equipment, an Insight DAC into a Transcendence Three FET/Valve driving an Insight+ 250. The source will be mp3s, wavs, flacs and CDs on my PC through an M2Tech HiFace, along with some CDs played on a Sony BDP-S185. I'm happy with my current set up, but this thread has me chompin' at the bit to try out the Pioneers.

[Outofthewoods]

Hi All,

How do you think a pair of the SP-C22 as mains would compare to the SP-BS22's? I bought my daughter a pair of the SP-BS22's and think they are really nice for the money. Seems like the SP-C22's would hit the sweet spot between the tower and bookshelf models, no? Right now the SP-C22's would be $150 pair shipped from Tiger Direct. msrp is $129.00 each.

Thanks!

Ruben

[srb]

I was wondering that myself.  Don't most dome tweeters have the same dispersion characteristics whether vertical or horizontal orientation?  The +3dB sensitivity would be welcome as would 1/2 the cone excursion for a given volume.

Amazon also has them back on sale at $70/ea. or $140/pair shipped/

Steve

[Outofthewoods]

I was wondering that myself.  Don't most dome tweeters have the same dispersion characteristics whether vertical or horizontal orientation?  The +3dB sensitivity would be welcome as would 1/2 the cone excursion for a given volume.

Given the wave guide I'm not sure there would be much of an audible difference whether placed in a vertical, or horizontal arrangement. I will be standing them on end. I can bang out some plinths for added stability if necessary. There might be some threaded inserts on the intended bottom of the enclosure for attaching those feet, but I'm not worried about it.

Increased sensitivity, greater SPL capability and lower distortion levels are big pluses.

Amazon also has them back on sale at $70/ea. or $140/pair shipped/

Steve

Just placed an order.

I suspect that these will prove to be the best in the line up for 2 channel use. (fingers crossed) I tried the towers and returned them. The SP-BS22's are great!

I'm kind of surprised that I wasn't able to find a singe post or review from anyone using these as mains.

Frank, Is there any particular reason you haven't tried a pair?

Best,

Ruben

[Doublej]

Outofthewoods,

Why did you return the towers?

[Outofthewoods]

Outofthewoods,

Why did you return the towers?

The main issue was the top end. Much too bright when cranked and thus very fatiguing. They sounded quite good on their own for HT use though.

Best,

Ruben

[neekomax]

The main issue was the top end. Much too bright when cranked and thus very fatiguing. They sounded quite good on their own for HT use though.

Best,

Ruben

Got the towers new in their boxes here in my room, will hook them up tomorrow and see what I think. They're a gift for my buddy's b-day coming up.

[hoxuanduc]

I had a pair of SP-C21 MTM to compare to the BS21 (previous version).  I thought the SP-C21's were better in soundstage and dynamics. FWIW, I thought the MTM's were better deals than the TM.

Duc

Hi All,

How do you think a pair of the SP-C22 as mains would compare to the SP-BS22's? I bought my daughter a pair of the SP-BS22's and think they are really nice for the money. Seems like the SP-C22's would hit the sweet spot between the tower and bookshelf models, no? Right now the SP-C22's would be $150 pair shipped from Tiger Direct. msrp is $129.00 each.

Thanks!

Ruben

[revrob]

Can anyone recommend a cheap receiver or integrated for under $200 to complete this set. Used or new it doesn't matter.

Thanks.

[alphaiii]

Gene DellaSalla commented on the C22 (and FS52 if I remember) being a bit sibilant in the Audioholics review... and noted the sibilance was less noticeable on the BS22...

Curious if others notice/agree with this, particularly if trying out the C22's as main.

[LadyDog]

Certainly no disrespect for any of the previous posters/comments, but believe the towers are getting a bit of a bum rap. 

Owning both, I fully agree with Frank that the towers do not quite have the "magic" that the little brother has.   I do not want to profess having the musical ear that Frank and Dennis have, nor can I wax as eloquently on the sound as those two extremely talented designers/legends have already done so, but would concur that the complexity of the crossover is the driving force.  There is a separation of integration with the 52’s, which does not appear with the 22’s.  Ultimately, the towers are not as fluid as the bookshelves.   

The reality is though, these are $250 speakers. 

I cannot comment on many other speakers in this price range, but imagine they all have compromises.  I’m willing to bet Andrew did the best he could, within the constraints given to him.  And based on the 22’s exceling at its price range, I’m betting the towers do too.

For me, I ended up with the towers in our family room system.  Reasoning;   
a)   like the looks of the towers better – don’t have to mess with stands, nor the extra cost
b)   able to get away without using the subwoofer - obviously not earth shattering bass, but there was not a lot of difference with/without….the subwoofer is really more of a woofer, than the sub part 
c)   my system is more geared toward home theater use, which with the slightly etched sound, serves its purpose better

I ended up with the bookshelves in our den system.  Of the two, they are the better 2 channel speaker.

As with many things in life, it is about choices.  What are the parameters, what are the constraints, what is the overall intent?

Anyone on the fence of either speaker, they are as good as advertised.  Peace!

[srb]

Gene DellaSalla commented on the C22 (and FS52 if I remember) being a bit sibilant in the Audioholics review... and noted the sibilance was less noticeable on the BS22...

I understand the slight difference in treble presentation between the FS52 and BS22 based on addition of a midrange driver and different crossover.

However, I would expect that the BS22 and C22 would be more similar, both being a two way with the same crossover perhaps with only slight padding to accommodate increased sensitivity.  I notice that the C22 has the same 6 ohm impedance as the B22, so I assume it's paralleled woofers are versions with twice the impedance.

Hopefully AJ might see this and weigh in on the C22's suitability as a pair of mains as well as any technical difference that might explain any difference in response, if in fact there is any.

Steve

[srb]

Can anyone recommend a cheap receiver or integrated for under $200 to complete this set. Used or new it doesn't matter.

It's a tough price point for integrated amps or receivers.

I have a friend who has the BS22 hooked up to a Best Buy Insignia NS-R2001 2 channel receiver ($130/$80 on sale), and the performance is lackluster at best.

If multiple inputs aren't needed the Dayton DTA-100a is a possibility, although I seem to recall a topic where someone was using one with a pair of the BS21 and felt that it didn't have quite enough oomph for them.

A number of people have been fairly satisfied with several models of Onkyo Factory Refurbished 2 channel receivers (Onkyo TX-8255 @ $120 and TX-8050 @ $200).

On the used market, the Pioneer A-35R and NAD C 316BEE integrateds are very good, but you may wait awhile for one to come up for sale.

If I were to extend my budget to $300, I would get the new Pioneer Elite A-20 which is the replacement for the discontinued A-35R.

Steve