Spikes or no spikes ?

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Danny Richie

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Re: Spikes or no spikes ?
« Reply #40 on: 21 Dec 2012, 06:30 pm »
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I know of one person in the Audio world that is a proponent of de-coupling speakers from the ground, Barry Diament. He uses super hard ball-bearing-like objects which rest in a super hard concave "bowl". The theory is that the speaker (or other object) has sufficient mass to remain stable if there are any vibrations/micro vibrations underneath it - that is, the floor or shelf moves slightly while the object above remains in place. The design is self-centering due to the concave shape of the cup or bowl holding the ball bearing.

If the floor were to be a lossy floor. And by that I mean not solid like a concrete floor. Flexible and subject to resonances like a wooden floor. The floor resonances are an up and down resonance not a back and forth resonance. So it would bounce the speaker up and down not move back and forth underneath it.

And to think that the pressure that a speaker puts into a room will resonant the floor, which will then in turn pass back onto the speaker and will resonant the speaker or speakers panels and cause a resonance distortion is FAR less likely that the pressure caused in the speaker cabinet itself will cause the resonance of the cabinet. 

The ball bearing focuses the weight down to a very small pressure point just like a spike. That is a hard fixed pressure point. This again is coupling.

bdp24

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Re: Spikes or no spikes ?
« Reply #41 on: 22 Dec 2012, 07:37 am »
Dave---Well I'll be damned! After using the original Mod Squad Tip Toes under my ESS TranStatics (are you old enough to remember them? A pretty advanced speaker when they were introduced in 1970. KEF B-139 woofer in a transmission line, KEF 5" Bextrene mid-range driver also in a short TL, and 3 RTR Electrostatic tweeters, all for $1200/pr in early '70's money. I still have them!) in '84, and having them flatten on the tips---each cabinet weighed 140 lbs., and the Tip Toes were machined out of aluminum---I went to a building supply place to look for the threaded studs and found them. Perfect! I installed 1/4-20 T-nuts on the bases into which I screwed the studs (no pun intended), where they still reside.

Guy 13

Re: Spikes or no spikes ?
« Reply #42 on: 23 Dec 2012, 10:00 am »

Hi Danny and all Audio Circle members.
When I first started this (new) topic,
it was about Danny’s - V1 speakers that I own and like
and I wanted to know if the top coaxial portion and bottom subwoofer portion would improve the sound if separated by spikes.
As usual all the posts quickly drifted to something else, not that I mind; I always learn something out of an audio drift.
To come back to the reason of my original post, if Danny’s V1 are built according to or exceeding Danny’s specs, there should not be any problem of the woofer section transmitting bad vibrations to the top coaxial section, right?
Now other concerns are spikes for speakers.
Those are my conclusions, after reading all the posts of the Audio Circle members and searching on the web:
Spikes for speakers are good if on wood floor, so that the spikes can penetrate a little the wood, right?
Spikes on carpet, can be good is underneath you have a wood floor and the spikes reach the wood floor, right?
Spikes on ceramic floor is no good as it will only skid or scratch the ceramic surface, right?
Those little pennies that you put under the spikes are made of metal and will also glide or skid…, right?
Rubber pucks (Similar to the one used for the hockey game… I use that example, because I am a Canadian and our national sport is hockey.) might be good if they are hard, low profile and doesn’t slip on the floor, however, the rubber puck will not transmit the vibrations of the enclosure to the floor.
An audio rack and/or a turntable need to be isolated from the vibrating floor with spikes or some other isolating device, right.
Products available are:
Spikes, rubber donuts and/or a combination of the two.
Bernie’s offer all those products, therefore I will consider buying from him especial that all is offering is Made in USA, that’s why I find his products a little expensive, but I am a promoter of made in USA or Canada products.
Agree or don’t agree + I am right or I am wrong,
Please let me know or educate me further more.
Guy 13

 



Danny Richie

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Re: Spikes or no spikes ?
« Reply #43 on: 23 Dec 2012, 03:05 pm »
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To come back to the reason of my original post, if Danny’s V1 are built according to or exceeding Danny’s specs, there should not be any problem of the woofer section transmitting bad vibrations to the top coaxial section, right?

Whether built as per the plans or separated with some spikes works fine either way. One way you couple it with spikes and the other way you couple it with wood to the outer frame of the lower section. Building it as one piece may make it a little more solid and secure. If the lower section is well coupled to the floor and does not move then neither will the upper section. The main thing is that the lower section (where all the moving force is) is secure.

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Spikes for speakers are good if on wood floor, so that the spikes can penetrate a little the wood, right?
Spikes on carpet, can be good is underneath you have a wood floor and the spikes reach the wood floor, right?

Sure. Even spikes on a carpeted concrete floor is great. 

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Spikes on ceramic floor is no good as it will only skid or scratch the ceramic surface, right?

They won't skid unless you pull them around on it. And you set the spikes on small disc to protect the floor.

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Those little pennies that you put under the spikes are made of metal and will also glide or skid…, right?

No, they will not move. There is too much weight per square inch on them for them to move. You will have to physically push the speakers to get them to move on those things.

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Rubber pucks (Similar to the one used for the hockey game… I use that example, because I am a Canadian and our national sport is hockey.) might be good if they are hard, low profile and doesn’t slip on the floor, however, the rubber puck will not transmit the vibrations of the enclosure to the floor.

Physical vibrations are seldom transmitted to the floor. You have to have a floppy un-braced panel that is resonating and sitting on the floor directly for it to transmit that to the floor. Floor spikes are positioned on the edges of the speaker on on the outside edges of a thick base. In those positions there is hardly any resonance to transmit at all.

The concern is not that the speaker will vibrate the floor or resonate the floor from physical contact. The concern is holding the speaker still so that it does not move.

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Spikes or no spikes ?
« Reply #44 on: 23 Dec 2012, 03:54 pm »
Danny, looking at Guy's sketch, how would the coax driver output be affected by the gap between the upper baffle and the lower cabinet/base created by the height of the spikes?  When building my sealed speakers a while back, I had a similar design idea on the drawing board before deciding to go in the direction it ended up. 

Just curious what if any affect it has, because I remember seeing other commercial (boxed) speaker designs with a similar approach that looked very nice, as well as thinking that for cabinet makers considering building these kind of speakers, shipping completed smaller stackable unit assemblies might be a more cost-effective approach than single piece floor standing cabinets?  Also could work out well for DIY/tinkering guys in being able to build out the bottoms and then cheaply/easily change out the tops as models/tastes/whim changes.

MichaelHiFi

Re: Spikes or no spikes ?
« Reply #45 on: 23 Dec 2012, 05:07 pm »
I had my V's spiked to the floor. But after all the moving around I've done to these speakers I broke and bent a few. My audio buddy purchased some  of those Herbies gliders. Now whether you believe they couple or decouple, (decouple is what I believe they are supposed to do) they have altered the sound of the speakers. They simply sound smoother but don't seem to sacrifice high frequency energy.

My floor floats. There are no piers under the living room. None. There are hardly any piers under the entire house  :o and the few that are there are tilted. It's criminal how they rebuilt this house  :evil:



It's an audio upgrade I tell ya, waiting to happen. And since I live on the San Andreas fault - I BETTER HURRY!

bdp24

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Re: Spikes or no spikes ?
« Reply #46 on: 24 Dec 2012, 04:40 am »
Wow Michael, that is SCARY! You're in California too (I'm in the Southern quarter), where the standards in the carpentry trade have dropped drastically in the past few decades. Call Holmes on Homes!

cheap-Jack

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Re: Spikes or no spikes ? - Spike it!
« Reply #47 on: 24 Dec 2012, 05:45 pm »
Hi.
(1) Given that your enclosures likely vibrate more than your foundation: Isolation would be counter-productive.

(2) Tape deck? Really?

(3) thought you had replaced that with wood per your discussion in "Audio Myths Too"? (seriously though: what is it with the bad spelling here on AC. Not typos: I get that; but homonyms and the like?)

(1) YES, isolation is productive & effective for wooden or the like soft floor structures to stop vibration coming up from below. But not so good for rigid concrete floors which virtually does not vibrate when compared to the vibration of the equipment caused by airborne soundwaves from the loudspeakers & wall reflections.
 
Isolation only blocks the equipment vibration from draining away. So spiking is the far better effective way of  killing equipment vibration for concrete floors as spikes allow vibration to drain away instantly. Spike is phsyical a mechanical diode, which only permits one-direct flow of vibration. So for equipment with drives, e.g. TT, tape deck, CD/DVD/Blu-ray players, the spikes should be directed downwards to allow the drive vibration, & any airborne vibrations of the player drain awy instantly. At the same time, it does not allow any structural vibration coming from below.

Isolation does not provide such 2-way benefits.

(2) Yes, it is supported by 3-in-set tuned brass tip toes on wooden board. The tape music get 'cleaned up" a lot lot.

(3) NO, I said in previous posts the concrete basement walls are wooden-panelled all around, with glasswool quilts filled up the voids behind between the backbone wooden studs.


c-J

Saturn94

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Re: Spikes or no spikes ? - Spike it!
« Reply #48 on: 26 Dec 2012, 05:16 am »
...Spike is phsyical a mechanical diode, which only permits one-direct flow of vibration....

This makes no sense to me.  How can a spike which is coupled to the surface it's touching prevent vibrations from traveling in both directions?

Photon46

Re: Spikes or no spikes ? - Spike it!
« Reply #49 on: 26 Dec 2012, 01:27 pm »
Hi.
(1) YES, isolation is productive & effective for wooden or the like soft floor structures to stop vibration coming up from below. But not so good for rigid concrete floors which virtually does not vibrate when compared to the vibration of the equipment caused by airborne soundwaves from the loudspeakers & wall reflections.
 
Isolation only blocks the equipment vibration from draining away. So spiking is the far better effective way of  killing equipment vibration for concrete floors as spikes allow vibration to drain away instantly. Spike is phsyical a mechanical diode, which only permits one-direct flow of vibration. So for equipment with drives, e.g. TT, tape deck, CD/DVD/Blu-ray players, the spikes should be directed downwards to allow the drive vibration, & any airborne vibrations of the player drain awy instantly. At the same time, it does not allow any structural vibration coming from below.

c-J

I've heard so may individuals and vendors repeat the "one way vibration diode" mantra regarding spiking that it seems to have become an unquestioned maxim for many. On the other hand, I'd like to meet one individual trained in science that promotes the belief a spike of monolithic material can act as a vibration diode. What seems more likely to actually happen is that when one spikes a component to a larger mass, the components resonant frequency changes because of the coupling. This seems more likely to account for whatever improvement in sound one hears. There's no doubt footers and spikes do affect changes in what we hear and it would be interesting to see someone create some tests to verify or put to bed the issue of whether spiking works by resonant tuning or actual vibration "draining."

 My personal experience also belies the belief that spiking to concrete always improves things. My home has the air handler for the HVAC system mounted on the rafters in the attic space. The low frequency vibrations it generates transfer through the rafters to the wall studs and then to the concrete foundation of the home. When my speakers have been spiked directly to the concrete floor, I can feel them oscillate in time with the the air handler fan in the attic. If I had known that would happen, I would have ordered and installed vibration damping mounts at the time of the system replacement. I've gotten around this by using heavy granite slabs under the speakers and they definitely tightened up the sound when coupled to the speakers. I could easily believe there are other single family homes and apartments where similar low frequency vibrations could be transferring through the concrete of the dwelling.

Danny Richie

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Re: Spikes or no spikes ?
« Reply #50 on: 26 Dec 2012, 02:48 pm »
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What seems more likely to actually happen is that when one spikes a component to a larger mass, the components resonant frequency changes because of the coupling.

You are correct.

MichaelHiFi

Re: Spikes or no spikes ?
« Reply #51 on: 26 Dec 2012, 05:38 pm »
Most of my speakers over the years had sat on marble. As Danny mentioned these seem to tighten things up a bit.