[totoro]

Cable risers could make a difference. I use them.  They're cheap. 

Cryo.  I use it too.  Very inexpensive for me (free) and it's science.

What's science exactly? Cryogenics in general? Or applying it to speaker cables, etc?

If applying it to speaker cables is science, can you point us to some papers which show results of some actual experiments showing that there is some audible effect when tested on groups of listeners with the requisite controls, etc, etc? That would be necessary for this to cross over into the realm of science.

I'm not doubting that cryogenics does _something_, but it would be interesting to see some papers showing such an effect.

If not, then claims of "it's science" should perhaps be changed to "it's science-y". Kind of like truthy, but with science.

[dBe]

Had you chosen electrical conductors to challenge the possible improvement with cryo, I might have been interested.  But since you chose an optical disc as the test, I'm no longer interested and probably couldn't buy a product from you on that basis.  So thanks anyway, but for that reason, I'm out.
 
Steve

Steve, I'll be more than happy to accomodate a comparison of electrical conductors just for you.  No problem.  All you have to do is come up with a test and the methodology and I'm all about it.  You can provide the materials or I will select them.  Have someone else provide them.  I don't care.  It's all good. 

I chose an optical disc as an arbitrary choice to see if there is or is not an improvement/difference in an off the wall medium to demonstrate the changes in many differing materials through low temperature processing.

Why you would make this statement: "But since you chose an optical disc as the test, I'm no longer interested and probably couldn't buy a product from you on that basis." is curious at best.

How anyone spends their money is their business. 

Dave

[srb]

Why you would make this statement: "But since you chose an optical disc as the test, I'm no longer interested and probably couldn't buy a product from you on that basis." is curious at best.

Although I feel that cryogenic treatment to increase hardness and longevity in metals and even perhaps improve the flow of elctrons in analog conductors in particular has merit, I also feel that in proposing a test to cryogenically treat an optical disc, a medium whose specification includes error correction, you have unwittingly steered the subject toward the snake oil side.
 
I have no doubt that you would find those who report positive results of such a test, but that in itself is meaningless, as Geoff Kait of Machina Dynamica also has supporters of many of his tweeks, from super inteligent chips to brilliant pebbles.
 
Steve

[Rclark]

Perhaps, you are right, but then, perhaps not. Consider the following use of cable risers. There are a pair of network cables in the plumbing jacket against the wall. There is a power cable for the sub (which you'll notice is the basic, stock cable) running along the front side of the cable risers. The sub output of my XO, the LFE output from my preamp and the speaker wires for the rear channel all run along the risers. This maintains the segregation of my signal wires along a parallel path with the aforementioned. That, I think is sensible - not a bogus concern. Ergo, such tools can serve a valid purpose, even from a most restrictive viewpoint.

Whether or not they may also provide a benefit by elevating signal wires above the synthetic fibers of the carpet is a matter I'll leave to others to argue, but they do provide other benefits which are of value to me. Hell, as someone pointed out in that other thread, they look 'kewl' (to some of us anyway). As they have a fair amount of weight and the wires can be strapped to them, they are convenient for routing purposes - being elevated forces any other individual walking in that area of the room to 'respect' the speaker wires. I should also point out that the porcelain insulators that I purchased for the task are quite cheap when sourced from an electrical supply house.

excellent point there.

[Rclark]

Cable risers?  Dunno.  I have hardwood floors in my listening room... that is now devasted for music by the Christmas Gayle.

Cryo - not bogus.  As a purveyor of all things cryo I have a deal for you.  To demonstrate the effects of cryo I will do this: tell me what CD you want to purchase as your next acquisition.  I will go out and buy two copies, leave them in the jackets and cryo one.  I will mark the unopened CD's A and B.  I will send them to a volunteer who will then open them and mark the discs A and B, listen to them and send then to you and you will in turn send them to another volunteer participant.  I will pay for all shipping.  The purpose is to pick out the best sounding CD of the two.  After the first volunteer sends the CD to you, I will email that  person as to which one of the CD's is cryoed.  That volunteer will be the "Control" and will let everyone know which CD is cryoed after the third participant has listened.  All fun and games at no expense to anyone 'cept me.

Who wants to play?

Dave

That sounds like a lot of fun and a very useful learning experience. Got your PM, let me think of something audiophilical.

[jtwrace]

Cryogenics in general?

this

[SoCalWJS]

Although I feel that cryogenic treatment to increase hardness and longevity in metals and even perhaps improve the flow of elctrons in analog conductors in particular has merit, I also feel that in proposing a test to cryogenically treat an optical disc, a medium whose specification includes error correction, you have unwittingly steered the subject toward the snake oil side.
 
I have no doubt that you would find those who report positive results of such a test, but that in itself is meaningless, as Geoff Kait of Machina Dynamica also has supporters of many of his tweeks, from super inteligent chips to brilliant pebbles.
 
Steve

FWIW

There might or might not be a change. It might be positive, it might not be.

I tell people that most changes make a diference, whether or not you think it is better is a matter of preference.

I think it will be interesting to find out if there is a difference when you cryo a CD, then try to figure out: why?

[dBe]

Although I feel that cryogenic treatment to increase hardness and longevity in metals and even perhaps improve the flow of elctrons in analog conductors in particular has merit, I also feel that in proposing a test to cryogenically treat an optical disc, a medium whose specification includes error correction, you have unwittingly steered the subject toward the snake oil side.
 
I have no doubt that you would find those who report positive results of such a test, but that in itself is meaningless, as Geoff Kait of Machina Dynamica also has supporters of many of his tweeks, from super inteligent chips to brilliant pebbles.
 
Steve

Steve, I really don't do anything "unwittingly" when it comes to posting here.  Remember: part of the original post was "Snake Oil".  One on the intentions of this series of posts is to be a lot like MYTHBUSTERS.  It is we who are doing the BUSTING.  Call us the AUDIOBUSTERS, if you will.  Perhaps this way we can establish in part what could or should be considered for use and definitely throw away the junk science and move along.  It is my sole intent to further the art AND science of HQ audio.  I don't have a dog in this show.  I'm the show promoter.  I have been doing all of this a long time and have empirically tested what I do and know to be credible over and over and over and o........ So have my customers.  Believe me, I'm kind of a tightwad and I don't do anything during my manufacturing processes to drive up costs for me or my customers.  There is a reason that the BUSS-Line is in ugly black boxes and doesn't sell for $3K-$5K.  That would be a crime in my mind.

You never did answer my proposition to you, so here is my final offer.  I have a bunch of Dayton 2-conductor mic cable here that I used to build cables for our church.  I also have Furutech RCA connectors in bulk.  I will build three identical 1 meter pairs of RCA's and cryo one pair.  That way there is an "X"-ish component to the test.   They will be built to the standard dropped shield configuration with the shield dropped on the destination end.  The destination end will be determined by the direction of the writing on the jacket with the writing direction denoting the signal flow path.  I will mark them A/B/X and send them to a Control person who will listen to them and then he can send them to you and you can then send them to another person of your choosing.  Each person will have one week to audition the cables and see/hear any (or no) differences between the cables.  The only thing necessary for the test to be successful is for each person to display intellectual honesty during their audition and I am certain that it is abundant here.  As far as I am concerned they can circulate forever.

One of the initial reasons that I offered CD's up for the test was purely economics.  We can send them around for $2.00 a test cycle.  Since I offered to do the posting I was looking at doing it on the cheap.  This one will require a $5.00 - $6.00 comittment from each person as I want them to be send USPS Priority Small box rate.

Interested?

Dave

[dBe]

FWIW

There might or might not be a change. It might be positive, it might not be.

I tell people that most changes make a diference, whether or not you think it is better is a matter of preference.

I think it will be interesting to find out if there is a difference when you cryo a CD, then try to figure out: why?

John,

Why? -  is always the point to ponder.

Please read the followup post to SRB.  Since you have exhibited an interest in interconnects would you also be the control for that test?  If he doesn't wish to participate I am sure we can find others that will be.  What say you, O, Arbiter of Fairness?   

Dave

[carusoracer]

Sounds like fun. I'd like to participate

[SoCalWJS]

John,

Why? -  is always the point to ponder.

Please read the followup post to SRB.  Since you have exhibited an interest in interconnects would you also be the control for that test?  If he doesn't wish to participate I am sure we can find others that will be.  What say you, O, Arbiter of Fairness?   

Dave

Dave - I'm very willing to participate in this! 

(on a side note - just went upstairs to my system and swapped things around again - I think for the better [it seems like a better theory]. My problem at the moment seems to be a VERY plugged up sinus. Took some meds, I'll squirt some stuff in my nose - allergy stuff. The rains have started the grass growing, and it seems to be causing more issues right now than usual. Sure screws up the hearing  )

[rollo]

   There are four words that are key to learning. "I do not know" the start of it all. One may use science as the basis of theory to begin the journey and one may not. Which one is most affective IMO is moot.
    At the end of the day wether by science or not the perception of the sound is key to the eye of the beholder. So why all the ruckus about said tweaking.
      Lets take Dave's Uberbuss as an example. One day while unplugging  our power cords the Uberbuss was sitting on some cone footers. After the cords were unplugged the cones were removed for convenience and not put back as I forgot to do so. powered up the CDP and to my surprise the sound had more body to it. Fuller. How ? Why ? Got me.
     So the tech side of the brain was puzzled as to how and why. Conducted several A to B to A comparisons and to my ears the Uber siting on the wool carpet was just better to me sonically.
      If it is my imagination or provable with science is moot to me. It is the perception of the sound by me that matters. Not the method of proof. If I perceive a difference for the better that's it in my book.
       When we audition a component or tweak in our familiar system are we listening to its affect or how it was designed ? In our hobby the sound is the only factor to be considered. The final product of all the science, research and implementation of such.
       If one hears a difference wether perceived or or actual it only matters to the eye of the beholder. Our ears as flawed as they are the only true avenue for evaluating any tweak. I'll leave the science to the engineers and the listening to me.


charles

[kevin360]

I really don't do anything "unwittingly" when it comes to posting here.  Remember: part of the original post was "Snake Oil".  One on the intentions of this series of posts is to be a lot like MYTHBUSTERS.  It is we who are doing the BUSTING.  Call us the AUDIOBUSTERS, if you will.

This is precisely what I like about this whole enterprise. It will demonstrate something. We who participate have the opportunity to make a blind evaluation. I am skeptical, but not closed minded. I care not how I align with the other participants, at least, not beyond simple curiosity. I do look forward to the exercise and I'll include my daughter (she has quite developed 'ears'). For obvious reasons, we'll all have to wait a while for the results - at least, I would recommend against posting a running tally of any sort during the acquisition of the data.

The original post title included the term, 'decorum'. Let's have fun with this. Let's not be petty about it. We can argue about the interpretation of the data, but let's do it in a civil manner - via rational discussion. Until then, let's concentrate on devising experiments that aren't completely untenable. That should prove quite a challenge.

[brj]

To demonstrate the effects of cryo I will do this: tell me what CD you want to purchase as your next acquisition.  I will go out and buy two copies, leave them in the jackets and cryo one.  I will mark the unopened CD's A and B.  I will send them to a volunteer who will then open them and mark the discs A and B, listen to them and send then to you and you will in turn send them to another volunteer participant.  I will pay for all shipping.  The purpose is to pick out the best sounding CD of the two.  After the first volunteer sends the CD to you, I will email that  person as to which one of the CD's is cryoed.  That volunteer will be the "Control" and will let everyone know which CD is cryoed after the third participant has listened.  All fun and games at no expense to anyone 'cept me.

I haven't had a spinner in my system for several years, but an interesting adjunct to this experiment might be to take a CD, rip it and save the report, then cryo it and repeat the rip.  See of the error report or confidence rating changes.  No (fallible) human perception involved...

[fredgarvin]

Could Steve just be afraid he will pick the wrong disc? 

[kevin360]

I haven't had a spinner in my system for several years, but an interesting adjunct to this experiment might be to take a CD, rip it and save the report, then cryo it and repeat the rip.  See of the error report or confidence rating changes.  No (fallible) human perception involved...

Indeed, that would be most interesting. Again, the result of comparing the error reports must be withheld until all of the listening reports have been collected. We have to be patient. It will be very interesting to see how the listening evaluations compare to the computer's assessment.

----

Rollo,

The thing about perception is that our brains are actively involved in the process. Ears are quite passive, but our brains are creative. In fact, in a very real sense (pun intended), our perceptions are our creations. What we know about what we are perceiving influences how we perceive it. It's a young and fascinating field of study. Science may be applied at many different levels. Something which rests so heavily on perception as our audio hobby cannot be properly understood without the application neurology and psychology.

(please don't read anything into the above)

[JerryLove]

Cable risers?  Dunno.  I have hardwood floors in my listening room... that is now devasted for music by the Christmas Gayle.

Cryo - not bogus.  As a purveyor of all things cryo I have a deal for you.  To demonstrate the effects of cryo I will do this: tell me what CD you want to purchase as your next acquisition.  I will go out and buy two copies, leave them in the jackets and cryo one.  I will mark the unopened CD's A and B.  I will send them to a volunteer who will then open them and mark the discs A and B, listen to them and send then to you and you will in turn send them to another volunteer participant.  I will pay for all shipping.  The purpose is to pick out the best sounding CD of the two.  After the first volunteer sends the CD to you, I will email that  person as to which one of the CD's is cryoed.  That volunteer will be the "Control" and will let everyone know which CD is cryoed after the third participant has listened.  All fun and games at no expense to anyone 'cept me.

Tommy Deluxe Edition, The Who SACD.

Since there are absolutely *no errors* in reading as-is; I can't wait to hear how better-than-perfect reading of pits and lands will sound.

[JerryLove]

Here's an idea: instead of playing the cd's, rip them to a computer file, then play them. Would be interested to see if there was then a difference due to cyro....

Rip them to WAV and do a CRC compare on the files. Would be more effective.

[dBe]

Could Steve just be afraid he will pick the wrong disc? 

Let's try to keep this on track.  Steve may just not want to play.  We need to keep the discussion about the topic, not the people.  These are sensitive issues and we need to respect everyones position.

Dave

[SteveFord]

I'll be in for the CD.
It doesn't matter to me which way the results go.