[Speedskater]

The hard part about doing a blind test when switching physical connections is involved, is keeping it blind.

[Speedskater]

You may feel like a biologist at a creationist convention. But in reality you are creationist at an atheist convention.

That doesn't make a bit of sense!
What in the world are you thinking about?

[mjosef]

I repeat my question - has anyone detected audible differences between different power cables and power connectors with the nc400/smps600 combo (unless using some exotic/weird cables with extremely high resistance/impedance)?

Yes, the two(3) power cords were Audience AU24 and Kaplan HE & GS power cables. They all had a different sound.

[James Romeyn]

Cut to chase, at least regarding Debra's favorite.  Listened to a Richard Wagner prelude, Lyle Lovett (N. Dakota).  She preferred the molded mains cable.  No ABX, I just switched cables each time and she consistently preferred the unknown to her molded cable.  "I know what I like," she said. 

She left the room.

Debra had requested a "more clear" program.  I interpreted this to mean the bass was a little thick, because both music programs have good clarity and detail.  Normally main monitors are high-pass crossed @ 80 Hz. This room has horrible bass modes.  For this test I ran the main monitor array center channel full range, and no sub array.  I switched the high-pass back in and overall performance improved.  I'll ask her to redo the test later with the high-pass switched in.   

I returned to Lovett's superb studio recording (almost positively all acoustic effects are electronic, not natural).  I heard what she described in the molded cable: smaller stage, closer images, more clarity, less sweet, less instrument separation.  But I was not necessarily convinced of a favorite.   

Returned to the Taylor CD.  Again, this Best of Live CD is a great live recording.  With the sub array (off for this test) bass on this CD has that huge "breathing" effect that almost makes you swallow, like falling down the peak in a roller coaster, only present on good live recordings.  Huge layered stage and great natural imaging.  If they added effects in the studio they did it well enough that I can't tell.  In Trinaural you can envision the audience at least 75' beyond the front wall.   

Only one switch was needed to confirm my preference for the SW mains cable.  This time I'll describe the difference this way: the molded mains cable sounds like a smaller stat with a good portion of its rear output damped.  The SW mains cable sounds like a floor to ceiling stat with its rear wave fully open.  In both imaginary cases the stats are ideally setup for maximum performance.

Just for reference, I'll confirm the following later with same A-B test (same two mains cables) on my CD player.  Every other time I've done similar A-B test with mains cables the SW cable blows away the molded cable, no contest.  Considering Ncore results, and especially considering 2' SW vs. 6' molded lengths, it's possible, as some suggested, that "upgrades" and tweaks producing X performance increase with regular components might yield less audible results with Ncore.

I'm anxious to wrap fuses with Teflon plumber's tape.  Trung highly recommends this tweak.

I finally fixed a cosmetic issue on the monitors so I can take new images and post them with description of this fairly odd ball system (Trinaural, two monitors per channel in vertical dipole array, sub array, dual use HT/music with 92" retractable perforated screen).             

[jimdgoulding]

I have inexpensive 7 gauge Pangea cords from my PC to wall outlet and to my active speakers.  Got mine shortly after Elizabeth got hers.  My rationale for getting them was that my speaker's internal amps (2 for each speaker) could draw all the current from the wall they could wish for.  Last night I listened to a Mapleshade CD, DAVETIK- Ballads From The Black Sea, and heard bass that flat belies anything you would think my speakers could do and I don't remember hearing the bass on that to the extent I did last night.  Maybe I'll a/b them someday but for now I'm just enjoying what I think is a bit more ease and liquidity.  And bass.  Make that deep bass.

[drmike]

hey james,
Where can one find the stan warren pc recipe?
Thanks,
drmike

[Julf]

Considering Ncore results, and especially considering 2' SW vs. 6' molded lengths, it's possible, as some suggested, that "upgrades" and tweaks producing X performance increase with regular components might yield less audible results with Ncore.

Which is why I keep insisting that generalizing power cable experiences from some other amp doesn't help.
 

I'm anxious to wrap fuses with Teflon plumber's tape.  Trung highly recommends this tweak.

How are you going to be able to double-blind those?

[Julf]

You may feel like a biologist at a creationist convention. But in reality you are creationist at an atheist convention.

Ah, an excellent illustration of the dangers of perceptual bias and subjectivity! Brilliant! Thanks!

[werd]

Ah, an excellent illustration of the dangers of perceptual bias and subjectivity! Brilliant! Thanks!

You,re welcome, only because I hate being called a creationist. Doesn't apply to cables though.

[JerryLove]

You,re welcome, only because I hate being called a creationist. Doesn't apply to cables though.

Dominion guy: The primitive Bjorans think their prophets are gods.
Cardassian: But you think the Founders are Gods.
Dominion guy: That's different. The founders *are* gods.

One person is arguing measurements, math, and double-blind tests. The other is arguing what they are sure they personally experienced. I'll let you cast the roles as they fit.

[rollo]

   Wow. Since my comment about hard wiring a power cord as opposed to using an IEC you would think I suggested giving up ones first born. Wether the N-core benefits from that only experimentation will tell. Only made a suggestion, claimed zip.
   At the end of the day most designers listen to their designs. It is the finished product that sells. So it must sound good as well as being properly engineered. If we as DIY community have shut eyes we will learn nothing. If the N-Core power supply is designed where IECs or hard wiring makes no difference at least try if desired, that's all I'm saying here.
   I came to this thread to offer and  maybe learn something. Instead we get the same ole naysayers bashing. For once I would appreciate the benefit of doubt. Instead of wasting energy trying to convince me a PC makes no difference or hard wiring of such has little or no affect just try it and maybe we all can learn something. Gee is specs were the tell all just go get a 1970s Japanese receiver and be done.
   I look at the N-Core as a solid design well executed. Can it be improved by tweaking or voicing ?? Maybe maybe not, with open eyes at least one can try.



charles
   

[werd]

Dominion guy: The primitive Bjorans think their prophets are gods.
Cardassian: But you think the Founders are Gods.
Dominion guy: That's different. The founders *are* gods.

One person is arguing measurements, math, and double-blind tests. The other is arguing what they are sure they personally experienced. I'll let you cast the roles as they fit.

There isn't much measuring cables out side of just attaching a meter on each end and measuring impedance(which means there is barely any math).  It could mean that  ohms have a larger impact on what we hear than we previosly thought. Or its even more likely we are not seeing the whole picture of how mains cables interact with the local power grid. This is more likely. It's completely ommitted from discussion that the local transformer is very much a part of your system as your speakers, amps and room treatments.

Everybody tends to forget this very important part of system building and cabling your system.

Electricity will take the easiest path. So incorporating decent mains will lower the house impedance and how your system sees the local transformer.

[Speedskater]

"Electricity will take the easiest path."

Electricity will take all available paths - inversely proportional to each path's impedance. 

[werd]

Well everybody gets service but in terms of dynamics you want a stiff house tension. This gets you faster recovery of power into your outlets for good cymbal crashes and stuff.

[srb]

Well everybody gets service but in terms of dynamics you want a stiff house tension.

Stiff house tension?  You're making this up as you go.
 
Steve

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

(1) Is ABX perfect? No.

(2) Do you know a better way to avoid perceptual bias? Sorry, I don't.

(1) Nothing is perfect. ABX is NOT for sure. ABX is sorta "deceitful" per the other poster's comment which I agree.

Don't you know how ABX works on - our brain's fallibiltiy. IMO, ABX utiilizes our brian's shortcoming.

Nowadays,  a thousand-year old oriental medication: - accupucture comes back bigtime to cure our body pain. How it works? By stimulating continuously in a controlled manner the nerves on the skin of our body related to the painful organ using a silver needle. Such continuous stimulation masks temporarily the painful perception of our brain on that organ. So the pain is gone.

Likewise in ABX, when our brain perceives same piece of music repeatedly & monontously, it may lose its ability to differentiate distinctly the sonic difference between the components under test. Similar to the accupucture stimulation to our brain.

That's why so so many ABX tests end up with null result.

(2) "Bias" against what? We audio consumer always look for better value of our audio investment.
      Better sound less money, we go for it. Unlike vendors who all get money interest in selling their
      merchandises to us, consumers. Vendors get "bias" aginst competition, for sure, but we don't.

ABX can therefore used by vendors as a sorta 'scientific' or 'objective' tool for marketing.

c-J

[Speedskater]

Stiff house tension?  You're making this up as you go.
Steve

I think that he is talking British.

Translation:

but in terms of dynamics you want a low source impedance.

[werd]

Stiff house tension?  You're making this up as you go.
 
Steve

I am not, I have maintained that for a long time. My torus in 240 demonstrated this to me in spades. This is how Torus and Bryston sell their transformers in all their big amps and conditioners.  The impedance characteristics if your outlet or house is extremely nerfed in terms of dynamic performance because of high outlet impedance.  Call it house or outlet it doesnt matter since the load comes from a local transformer.

[Letitroll98]

With my short time auditioning Jason's Ncores, I wasn't able to test different power cords, but I was able to change between using the wall outlets and a Pure AV power conditioner.  While I notice a significant difference between the power sources on my ol' American iron AB amp, the Ncores were fairly insensitive to what they were hooked up to.  I had thought this to be somewhat universal in experience, that the Ncores don't really care what PC or conditioner you hook the up with, they pretty much plow though unfazed. 

However I read James Romeyn's reports with much interest.  He honestly reports the "Wife Test" as differing from his own preference.  I honestly think this test is way more accurate than any ABX or blind AB test.  An uninterested, uninvolved listener familiar with the system randomly entering the room and hearing changes.  This listener is often described as "my wife", sometime GF, regardless, their opinions cannot be changed with any coercion or preconceptions because they simply don't care.  Their ears are always fresh because they won't sit and listen for more than a couple of minutes, and the more a component or cable looks like expensive audio jewelry, the more they are likely to dislike it.  The fact that James is trying desperately to alter the test in order for Debra to hear the improvements his Stan Warren recipe cable brings to the system is inconsequential.  What is important is that she hears a difference.  If there were no difference as the naysayers claim, these listeners would tell us so, and would usually be overjoyed to inform us that all of our audio fiddling is for naught.  Their bias, if any, is for a null result.  To the present, no one has sufficiently explained to me the conditional bias that "the wife" is experiencing.

[JerryLove]

Well everybody gets service but in terms of dynamics you want a stiff house tension. This gets you faster recovery of power into your outlets for good cymbal crashes and stuff.

I have no idea what "stiff house tension" means.

Your "fast recovery" power is provided, like all power, from the capacitors in your amplifier. It does not come directly from mains.

Do you know why all those sellers of "hospital grade 5-15R" outlets and the like talk about impedence but never give actual impedance numbers? Because on a 120v 50Hz 15amp line; the number is laughably irrelevant.

Have you ever measured the impedance on the connection from the power plant to your house? It's *huge*. So huge that they have to move the current up to tens-of-thousands of volts to get anything to you.

But by all means. What is the ohm resistance from your circuit breaker panel to you amp with a standard plug and with whatever you are advocating? I'll be sitting here with my magnets around my waist for health while drinking my supplements waiting.