[Cheeseboy]

We'll talk to you on Monday Michael. 

This is a good start.  Looking at the pictures that were posted by Brooklyn one of the biggest opportunities is using a good curtain material.  or good window covering like a slatted blind.

What curtain materials work best?

I've been using some odd items in one corner of my room and have found them to have a tuneable effect on the sound.  A large soft chair, lamp,  plant stand, books and two plants.    When I am doing a critical listen the speakers come out another foot and a half into the room.  The items pictures are where they need to be to get the best room tune out of them. 





The little picture above the chair would be a great spot to place one of those GIK art peices.  However someone must have a better homespun suggestion.

[SteveFord]

This may not be the correct place for this but the book, Get Better Sound by Jim Smith, is worth looking into.
Towards the end it gets into Bizarro Tweakland where it seems like he was streching a bit but all in all, a well written, useful addition to your library.

Here's a review:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/books/get_better_sound_e.html

If this is posted in the wrong section, please remove or relocate it.

[brooklyn]

Looking good there Brooklyn. It appears the crates were acting as a room treatment that did not work out.



charles

Thanks Charles, I'm finally real close to where I want to be with my system. I would like try some GIK corner bass traps and new speaker cables and see how that goes.

Your probably right about the crates, I wish I had more time to experiment with it but didn't at that time.

Jerry

[brooklyn]

This may not be the correct place for this but the book, Get Better Sound by Jim Smith, is worth looking into.
Towards the end it gets into Bizarro Tweakland where it seems like he was streching a bit but all in all, a well written, useful addition to your library.

Here's a review:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/books/get_better_sound_e.html

If this is posted in the wrong section, please remove or relocate it.

I think Jim Smith is spot on, I have his book and video and learned quite a bit from them and
used a few of his suggestions with much success.

[Cheeseboy]

I'm going to put  that book on my Xmas list.  It is easy to find for sale on Amazon.  The DVD's are there for sale too.  Thanks for the find. 



Hopefully I can solve the problems in this corner.

[michael green MGA]

Hi Guys

Glad to see you playing with different ideas to shape the sound. my advice would be while doing this is to respect the signal and sound waves. It doesn't take much playing to see huge affects and if you don't see "huge" affects than you know you have too much dampening or signal blockage somewhere in your system.

As was mentioned earlier wool is very powerful, but it can also make you loose sound quickly. When using wool directly pay close attention to the halo around instruments cause they can vanish like that.

Here's a good and simple test that you can do while voicing your room. Talk directly into any product or material. If you hold a product up in front of you and you hear part of your voice disappear you are going to have the same problem with your sound. For this reason I do all most exclusively barricade tuning. Meaning the burning part of the material is facing the area you want to burn and not facing you the listener or the musical sound wave directly. If you are introducing direct absorption be prepared to always have part of the instruments seem slightly out of tune and with less around the instruments body.

Way before I ever became a designer I would walk in rooms and cover up what the acousticians did to the rooms. They made rooms and the music sound dead or phasey (not quite on pitch) and it would drive me crazy. Once you get use to barricade voicing it is hard to listen without it. Drapes will come down and carpet is minimized. Again walk directly up to the drapes and get a couple of inches from it and you will hear your voice get absorbed. The acoustics of your system never does recover from this loss unfortunately. So think about the waves going to the wall then as they come off the wall this is where you stop them instead of on their way to the wall. A big difference between the two types of voicing.

While I was taking my visible break from the audiophile industry I started doing a lot of tuning for instrument companies. This led me to doing lots of recital halls and smaller chamber rooms. Some of these rooms rang like a bell before treatment but after treated with absorbers took on another problem "pitch control". These rooms could not find pitch and the instruments often sounded out of tune.

If I can let me self promote a little and show you what I mean.


"Due to the acoustics of many practice and rehearsal room, from elementary to college music schools students are many times hampered by distracting reverberations while trying to practice.
However, there is a remedy for poor rehearsal room acoustics, which is also surprisingly easy on school budgets. RoomTune is a new line of unobtrusive acoustical treatment components by Michael Green Design. As an accomplished musician and sound engineer, Michael has assisted many professional, commercial, and residential facilities achieve enhanced listening environments. Michael green has turned his attention to schools and other institutions.

"According to Green, there are three most common acoustical problems which usually exist in practice studios and the rehearsal room: One, lack of localization - the inability to hear the source at its actual location in the room. Two, noise level - the volume of echo and reverberation. And three, sonic falsehood - the room adding to or dampening the sound of the instrument.

"RoomTune components are relatively small acoustic control devices that work by adjusting the way acoustical energy travels along walls and collects at ceiling and wall seams. Made of a pillow type material and encased in Mylar they attach to the wall and strategically attack acoustic problems.

"Green also notes that when properly installed, those components allow sound to develop fully without attempting to diffuse or absorb the crucial harmonic structures being created. The sound is neither dull nor sterile, but clean and true, enabling players to hear each other better and play in tune together. Also by more closely replicating the acoustics that instrumentalists will encounter on stage, the tuned rehearsal room provides musicians with a more predictable environment.

"Room Tune also localizes sound making it easy for the conductor to detect the exact location of problems such as intonation, balance and tonal inconsistencies - so problems can be corrected before they become bad habits.

"RoomTune has been found to be highly effective in prestigious music schools. A room known for its booming and uneven acoustics has been transformed into a superb multi purpose space, effective for a wide range of ensembles, including vocal, brass quartets, quintets and even octets, as well as for teaching and lecturing. James Undercoflerm Director of the Eastman School of Music, in Rochester New York, It is now a desirable space for rehearsals and small performances. Undercofler pointed out that various attempts to improve the acoustics of the 78 year old room had included the use of heavy draperies and acoustical wall tile, all with little effect.

"Students at Naples Central School, Naples, New York also were impressed when ROOMTUNE was installed in the band room. Said Director Scott Kickbush, " I never realized how distorted the sound was", said Kickbush, "it was almost as though the entire room was out tune, creating a ghost like third player producing a buzzing sound. The RoomTune components totally eliminated the echoes and reverberation building up along the walls and corners, and, above all in my ears. I can now easily identify and place sounds, and the whole assembly sound seems so much more harmonious."

[satfrat]

I'm a firm believer in wall/ceiling/corners room treatment myself. I have every corner, wall edges & ceiling edges treated with 8th Nerve Adapt Rectangles/Corners & Echo Pillows (unfortunately no longer in business) did wonders for damping my room's energy. With  Furutech Room Tuning Panel Diffusers at my walls & ceiling 1st reflection points, I have no need to pad my room with absorbing panels. Killing my rooms energy doesn't work for me but controlling the rooms energy to make it work for me,,, well it works for me just fine.   

It's good to see that you're still at it Michael after all these years, hang in there as long as you're able. 

Cheers,
Robin

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
What ? ? ?
The assistant of Mr. Green don't have a name !
Why don't you sign your name at the end of your post,
I would like to know who's talking for and on behalf of Mr. Green.
I can see that Mr. Green trained you well,
you wrote a long letter like your master.
Guy 13

[PRELUDE]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
What ? ? ?
The assistant of Mr. Green don't have a name !
Why don't you sign your name at the end of your post,
I would like to know who's talking for and on behalf of Mr. Green.
I can see that Mr. Green trained you well,
you wrote a long letter like your master.
Guy 13

Hi Guy 13
This whole thread is like a ad in the TV or more like a sells man in a car dealer.

[Guy 13]

Hi Guy 13
This whole thread is like a ad in the TV or more like a sells man in a car dealer.

Hi PRELUDE and all Audio Circle.
So ? ? ? ?
Guy 13

[werd]

Mga

thanks dude. Its really come into its own. I tighten up the screws on my tpv for a little more tension(which is noticable btw). But i am getting it down to a little this and little that. I am going to leave it like this for a while now.

You done good.... 

[tomytoons]

14 pages and
Vanished!!!!!

[brooklyn]

I would too if I wasn't getting any positive feedback from the members, I'm surprised this thread lasted for 14 pages.

I don't see anyone here saying "please come back" so it was inevitable.

He was very unorthodox to say the least, I suppose if anyone was interested they went to his website.

Arrivederci.



 

[michael green MGA]

Hi Audio Circle

Hope all of you are doing well. I have enjoyed meeting some of you now and look forward to you and the tune becoming closer. I won't be coming up often as recommended by your own members but my offer still stands when the time is right to have a sponsored area here.

It's been a fun year, and even though some of you have a hard time with new members or members that offer something that is different I apperiate those of you who have taken the time to explore some of these myths and found "the tune".

[Guy 13]

Hi Audio Circle

Hope all of you are doing well. I have enjoyed meeting some of you now and look forward to you and the tune becoming closer. I won't be coming up often as recommended by your own members but my offer still stands when the time is right to have a sponsored area here.

It's been a fun year, and even though some of you have a hard time with new members or members that offer something that is different I apperiate those of you who have taken the time to explore some of these myths and found "the tune".

Hi Michael and all Audio Circle members.
It's not because we were in the past a little rough with you
that we don't like you.
I hope you will post more of your comments with lots of pictures to back up your theories.
We need people like to to spice up Audio Circle...

Guy 13

[PRELUDE]

Hi Audio Circle

Hope all of you are doing well. I have enjoyed meeting some of you now and look forward to you and the tune becoming closer. I won't be coming up often as recommended by your own members but my offer still stands when the time is right to have a sponsored area here.

It's been a fun year, and even though some of you have a hard time with new members or members that offer something that is different I apperiate those of you who have taken the time to explore some of these myths and found "the tune".

If I were you, I would change the title of this thread to MGM(Michael Green Myths)

[michael green MGA]

Hi Guy13

Spice is always a good thing used correctly. A friend of mine wrote me an email a while back asking why I came up to AC. I showed him a list of AC members who over the last 8 months have converted to tuning. Only a few have registered on tuneland but the number of people trying testing and experiencing big differences for the first time was a little shocking to him.

The audiophile experience is a diverse one, and even though I don't do things quite the same as what I have seen here, there seems to be a number of people who have been converting their systems to ones producing far more music than before based on the things I'm bringing up so that makes me pretty happy that I can help.

Three of these members have scraped their High End Audio systems altogether and gone to my recommended components, tuned them, and are saying they are getting music for the first time. This will never stop the nay sayers from saying, but what it does do is slowly but surely give those answers to great sound that some in this hobby have been waiting for for a very long time.

Will they post here? I doubt it. They didn't post here before and probably won't start now.

I'd love to post pics and do on Tuneland but it's not my style to beat up on manufacturers and if folks want to ask and see stuff they can come over there where we are not going to make them feel bad about what they are doing or own or the changes they decide to make because of what they are learning. If those same folks came up here they would no doubt get flamed and that's not cool in my book. As I read AC there are a lot of cool folks here who have found a way to over look or avoid the negs that for some reason stick around. I'm happy that they have found a good home here and share in their excitement of tweaking. For myself LOL easy target cause the things I do are such a departure from what audiophiles have been told for a long time. Still I don't have people try these things and come back and say that they didn't work and if they did they'd be lying and sooner or later would look to be only saying it didn't work so as to make a stir. In the end the "tune" wins any way you slice it.

Thanks for allowing me to present these suggestions and tweaks. In time I would like to do more but that will wait till I get more responses and results on my side of the world.

MGM lol, my girlfriend would like to use that quote.

[Guy 13]

Hi Michael and all Audio Circle members.
Each one has is own approach to fine tune an audio system,
good or less good is a matter of how you look at it and what you want.
The only thing I did not like about your approach was the dangling of the electrical
outlet , the removal of some unit's covers and the loosening of some nuts and bolts.
It could be potentially dangerous with tubes units 500 Volts)
and even the solid state units with low voltage but high currents.
Please keep your suggestions and approach safe.
That's my opinion and I don't think it's offensive or rude.
Keep suggesting and please.... Post pictures, because a picture is worth a thousand words.
Have a nice day.

Guy 13

[rollo]

Hi Guy13

Spice is always a good thing used correctly. A friend of mine wrote me an email a while back asking why I came up to AC. I showed him a list of AC members who over the last 8 months have converted to tuning. Only a few have registered on tuneland but the number of people trying testing and experiencing big differences for the first time was a little shocking to him.

The audiophile experience is a diverse one, and even though I don't do things quite the same as what I have seen here, there seems to be a number of people who have been converting their systems to ones producing far more music than before based on the things I'm bringing up so that makes me pretty happy that I can help.

Three of these members have scraped their High End Audio systems altogether and gone to my recommended components, tuned them, and are saying they are getting music for the first time. This will never stop the nay sayers from saying, but what it does do is slowly but surely give those answers to great sound that some in this hobby have been waiting for for a very long time.

Will they post here? I doubt it. They didn't post here before and probably won't start now.

I'd love to post pics and do on Tuneland but it's not my style to beat up on manufacturers and if folks want to ask and see stuff they can come over there where we are not going to make them feel bad about what they are doing or own or the changes they decide to make because of what they are learning. If those same folks came up here they would no doubt get flamed and that's not cool in my book. As I read AC there are a lot of cool folks here who have found a way to over look or avoid the negs that for some reason stick around. I'm happy that they have found a good home here and share in their excitement of tweaking. For myself LOL easy target cause the things I do are such a departure from what audiophiles have been told for a long time. Still I don't have people try these things and come back and say that they didn't work and if they did they'd be lying and sooner or later would look to be only saying it didn't work so as to make a stir. In the end the "tune" wins any way you slice it.

Thanks for allowing me to present these suggestions and tweaks. In time I would like to do more but that will wait till I get more responses and results on my side of the world.

MGM lol, my girlfriend would like to use that quote.

  I for  one appreciate your findings and suggestions. Thinking out of the box has its merits. Experimentation is fun and rewarding. Open eyes brings new challenges and a learning experience.
   The only one that needs convincing is ones self. Trust your ears that's all that really matters. Perception your perception of the outcome is what it is all about. 


charles

[michael green MGA]

Understanding what rooms naturally do before we start putting a system in can help us make decisions on what goes in the room. The room after all is what we hear.

It's hard to take a picture of what's going on in a room so we converted our findings into drawings to allow us to see the acoustical energy patterns.

Here's a write up from TuneLand that explains.

"One of the most important parts of your audio system is your acoustics. Over the years, engineers have fought over the understanding of these sound waves floating around your room and the way to deal with them. On TuneLand you will see many posts on acoustical situations from all over the world, in all types of rooms, and how we deal with them. We believe in restoring the sound without losing the music content. Therefore, we take an approach that is different from the companies that try to kill the sound. But before you dive into the pages of TuneLand and see how the most advanced listeners and systems use acoustics to their advantage, let me give you an easy guideline to follow.

If you learn about these two areas of acoustics and how to use them you will be way ahead of the pack and, at the same time, may save yourself tons of money and time. Pressure zones and laminar flow are the 2 terms we use to describe the events of the sound traveling down the wall (laminar flow) and the areas that build up sound pressure (pressure zones). All rooms have these two events and even though all rooms are different acoustically, if you learn how to recognize and treat these areas you will make a big improvement in your sound. Your room always has pressure zones and laminar flow present at all times. This is how nature works. Laminar flow and pressure zones are the controlling factors of how a room sounds. Yes, there are other factors but in the end result it is these areas of the room that are able to give you the biggest sonic effect.

As sound is reproduced in a room, the sound heads toward the walls. The part of it that doesn't get absorbed by the wall is reflected into other oncoming acoustical waves which makes the sound travel down the wall. This is the laminar effect. Once the sound makes its way to the corners of the room, it begins loading. Walk over to a corner in your room and you can hear the loading. Your room also responds with loading based on mathematical dividends. If you take the distance between two walls in the room, end to end, and divide it in two, you will find your secondary pressure zones. If you keep dividing this space your pressure zones will continue to decrease in intensity. There are other things to learn about pressure zones but let's stick with the basics. Another pressure zone is known as the center node which is located right in the center of your space. This area is where many important things happen in your room as well, which we will get into in other parts of the forum. "