[michael green MGA]

Audio myths is maybe one of the most important topics in our industry that should be looked at. As far as the video I only watched a very small part of it (referring to the topic audio myths), but enough to see that this is the right place to be talking about some very important issues.

My business was based on audio myths, not how you might think. After being involved in music my whole youth I got use to stories of how sound worked. Many of them never paned out and it started making me curious about some of the rules of audio. Little did I know that I would end up designing everything in the audio chain to find the answers. The first myth I ran into in my audio stores way before I ever came out with product was that people some how got in the trap of bigger is better. This is absolutely false on many levels. First of all bigger is more difficult. The more you add to the signal the more that signal a) will get locked in and b) the easier it is for you to run into distortion. Many folks believe that distortion goes in one direction of thinking. Not true. Distortion is cause by a system being out of tune. Having more or less of a signal has always been a part of audio but when you start thinking of audio as purely frequencies and not notes you can get into trouble quick and unfortunately thousands of people go down this path and never return. What is the sign of a system having distortion in it? The very first sign to look for on your system to see if it is distorting is can you play a lot of different pieces of music or are you constantly saying these are good recordings and these are bad. If you put a piece of music on your system and it doesn't sound right there are two potential villains. One is the recording and the other is your system. No one whats to blame their system but the truth is a great system can play almost any recording out there.

I can feel the heat already but lets move on. Can you walk off to the side of your system and it still be in balance tonally? If you have to sit in a sweet spot to get good sound your system is distorting. I know we for years and still do think that music travels from the speaker to your ears but the reality is music (sound) loads the room and you are hearing things called pressure zones and not a straight line of sound that goes from the speaker directly to you ear. This has been proven millions of times yet the audiophile engineering mind still can't get this straight some how. There are so many pictures where you have these lines going from a speaker to an ear as if a sound wave was a straight line that magically finds your ears because of that split second where the wave makes contact with your ear before any thing else. First of all that split second is so split that it doesn't exists in real time musically. Second you are sitting in an enclosed space and sound works sound + space not sound in spite of space. So for the folks that say the acoustics is an important part your absolutely right. Not only are you correct but the truth is your room is your system. If I have time this week I'll come back to this, but I'd like to move on to distortion signs.

If you stand up while the music is playing and do not hear the soundstage rise with you (meaning able to see the stage still intact without running to the speakers) your system is distorting. If you listen with your speakers somewhat pulled out into the room or even nearfield here's one for you. Walk on the other side of the speaker and turn around. If your not seeing (hearing) a mirror imaged sound stage, the sound coming from the other end of the room, your system is distorting. Here's a killer and a place where more audiophiles get stuck than any of them. If you have a soundstage that is not the real space, real size of the studio mic pickup area, your system is distorting. The first thing people say to me when they come in contact with a tuned system is that the soundstage is far bigger than a typical size audiophile sound stage. Many systems have a real problem in this area and there are several reasons. One being the signal is running through too many parts, the signal is running through over built parts, and one of the biggest, the system's acoustics are over dampened. Again proving this stuff is very easy and if you want to know how I'll be more than happy to bore you with how you can run your own test without spending a dime. I have people do these tests every day all over the world with every type of componentry you can imagine.

[jimdgoulding]

Nice.  Glad you're conscious.  Think some of us, any of us, need a test?  And you are above subjectivity?   

[Rclark]

Huh.. well according to all that, distortion wise, my system passes with flying colors.. Pretty neat.

[michael green MGA]

Subjectivity is the name of the game. There's nothing like exploring audio from every angle possible. I'm one that gets hired to explore theory and experienced truths so if I give the impression to you that I'm above this, oh far from it. I love to explore. I'm a big student of the art of sound and make decisions based on repeated and on going testing by many ears. And I might point out if someone chooses to take a different approach than I I'm all for it.

One of the things that I personally think was a wonderful turning point in High End audio was when things like SET and all kinds of speaker designs started to take a turn from the mainstream audiophile system. These things have been around for a long time but never really made a splash, now they are all over challenging the way people think about getting great sound. I have likes and dislikes all the way up the scale and see that the scale has changed quite a bit and for the good.

Oh and Rclark, the stands in your av are awesome. I think that panel speakers folks should design this into their products from the get go.

Tell you a story

In one of my shops I had some of the most expensive products on the market being sold. They were the raves of many magazines and with a lot of time could be matched with systems and great things could happen. But the systems in my shop that really got attention were these amazing simple setups that cast huge sound stages and tons of balanced music. When clients stopped by not knowing anything about pricing they almost always chose the simply built systems. When you look at people like Roger Modjeski who could have easily sold his product for several times the price tag and gone off on the bigger is better thing stay his ground with simplicity, musicality and consistent tonality it gets you thinking. There are many companies that I have found along with people from all over that are putting together systems that completely devastate what use to be considered the state of the art.

[Guy 13]

Hi Michael and all Audio Circle members.
Please tell us/share wit us more about what you know and do.

Guy 13

[michael green MGA]

Hi Guy 13

thanks

First of all it's nice to be here. I love sharing my hobby and hearing others experience and "sounds". I am the designer of RoomTune Acoustical Treatments and MGA products. I've had many people from audio circle visit me and take part in what we call "the tune". The tune is very simple to explain. We have found that everything in the world is tunable. My back ground is also simple. I was a studio engineer/entertainer/soundman who ended up opening High End Audio stores on the side while doing engineering and touring. the more involved I got into the hobby I started noticing that some of the same problems that were going on in the sound business were happening in the home audio world only to even a bigger extent. The difference was in the studio and when working with an instrument company they had something that the home audio world didn't (tuning). In the studio you shape the sound in two ways, one is by the audio trilogy electrical, mechanical and acoustical, and the name of the game is flexibility. The other way was fixed (the actual source storage, lp, cd, tape whatever) the part that actually contains everything that was done. When I got to the home audio side I would have thought that naturally to play the music back you want to do the same thing but in reverse. You take the source and tune it with a play back system. Home audio started to head that direction with the equalizer (unfortunately most of them cheaply done and noisy as heck) but instead of taking it further into the actual mechanical tuning of the sound they stopped. In the recording industry we know that every recording sounds different and has it's own built in signature, but I was noticing the more the High End Audio industry built fixed sounding components the more difficult it was becoming for the end user to get the sound the same as on the recording or to their personal taste. I stepped onto the scene (as a designer) in the middle of the "fixed chapter". This was basically when people would buy a system, take it home, plug it in, say they have the greatest thing since sliced bread, start buying other components because the bread didn't taste as good after all and continued the process. This was a confusing practice for me and I started introducing products that allowed the listener to head in the direction of tuning in the sound instead of changing out a fixed sound every 6 months. Ever since the first product "RoomTune" I've been taking apart the audio industry one screw at a time to see how everything in the audio chain effects the sound and then building tuning toys to aid in dialing in that sound.

I've built almost every size room with almost every material and tried every type of component and part to see and hear how the parts and pieces effect each other. After a while you start to see patterns happening and when tested enough you come up with some interesting conclusions. Among those is the thought process that goes into standards being created. A lot of these standards really hurt the sound, or should I say keep the sound from  being as complete as a piece of recorded music might be. Another problem is with a lot of things that the standards bring is an inability to produce someones personal taste easily. Most of the folks I have had the joy of listening with or supplying have their own absolute sound. Sometimes it actually is what is going on in a studio on that particular recording but most of the time it is a flavor that catches the attention. For myself I am completely neutral and even though I may have my own flavors enjoy going inside of a piece of music and seeing it from as many angles as I can. I also enjoy the perceptions that music lovers come up with as they listen and try to make that experience go as far as it can. Some of the people I work with or hang out with want to make all the things they listen to follow the same basic taste that suits them, but I'm finding even more people who like to explore the recordings more fully. These folks usually end up with some pretty interesting systems that look nothing like a stereo when it is done, but the sound is nothing shy of amazing.

I've always stayed in my world but have also always wanted to mingle more in the audiophile community. I see a ton of questions get asked on these forums and see people jump in and I have the erge as well to say "well maybe there's yet another approach" but of course my approaches sometimes ruffles the features of folks who maybe are not quite as exploratory driven so this has sort of kept me away but the desire is always there.

Here's an example. I've read some say that you should build rooms with staggered studs with a ton of (material's name) and make the room as dead as posible. Well that is just not true. the truth is there are tons of ways to make rooms sound a bunch of different ways and the key to your in particular sound is to have the room designed so that it reflects your flavor or what "you" see as accurate. I even design tunable rooms so you can make them sound any way you wish. To me everyone deserves to be the master of their own audio domain and when we give people stock, fixed, inflexible answers we are not really fulfilling their dream, we are fulfilling ours and I get so many calls from people saying "did it that way, didn't work" and for those I try to get to know their path and preferences and then start to work on their sound or their lifestyle needs and wants.

Another thing hope I never come off snobby or a know it all cause one thing that being in over 100,000 audiophiles rooms has taught me is , everyone has their own personality and vision of what their system is, and what they would like it to be. I'm just a guy who spends his time finding out how to get it there from any and every angle.

My own preference BTW super super simple. The more signal I can get through the audio chain without being dampened to death the more I like it. Give me that huge 3D stage that flows right through me, but also be able to pin point focus on something without changing anything but a screw. My main systems have no chassis, only 2 components big, hard wired and extremely tunable.

[Guy 13]

Hi Michael for your long and interesting letter.

I will be watching for more of your posts.

Since I was a young lad, I always wanted better and better,
I spent lots of money and was never completely satisfied,
but now at almost 65 years old, I am really slowing down
and trying to settle with a simple stereo sound system.
When I move back to Montreal, Canada, hopefully in a year or two
I will probably be living in a small apartment, (I will be retired)
therefore my system will be small, in size anyway.
But that does not mean I won't be happy with my last
and final sound system.

Guy 13

[JerryLove]

How do you define "bigger" and in what context do you feel it is "more difficult"? In what way do you feel bigger "adds to the signal"? What do you mean by "locked in", and how does bigger "add to the distortion"? Are you asserting, for example, that B&W 800D's, Salk SoundScape 12's, Philharmonic 3's, and Magipan (pick your large version) are all more distorted than a pair of Polk Audio bookshelves?

You then use the word tune. Tune is the process of changing the frequency of output of an instrument. No speaker driver produces a frequency different from the one fed to it (the nature of a magnetic speaker). The cabinets and produce resonances, and there can be issues with cone breakup or any number of other concerns; but you can't feed a speaker a G and get an A instead.

The first sign of distortion is distortion?

I think you would do well to read "The acoustics and psycho-acoustics of speakers in rooms" by Dr.Toole. It would help you understand the off-axis portions of your later post.

[stevenkelby]

Another thing hope I never come off snobby or a know it all cause one thing that being in over 100,000 audiophiles rooms has taught me is , everyone has their own personality and vision of what their system is, and what they would like it to be.

My main systems have no chassis, only 2 components big, hard wired and extremely tunable.

Being in 100,000 rooms is 5 rooms per day, every single day, for 55 years, is that right?

I checked out your site, by tuning I assume you mean by using room treatments? I agree they are a worthwhile investment.

Do you suggest measuring a room to determine treatments? If so, how? Or do you prefer to use the ears? I think measuring is most important when deciding on treatments but many people prefer ears only.

I would love to hear more about your system and philosophies,

Steve.

[thunderbrick]

We have found that everything in the world is tunable.

I'm old enough to realize that when someone says "Everything in the world is __________(fill in the blank)" my BS meter goes apeshit.

I live in Missouri, so I'd need to see more than hyperbole.  But on occasion I get surprised, so I'll follow this thread.

[michael green MGA]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the questions. I need to get the guys started in an hour or so but wanted to get in some quick answers then make it back later.

First of all the 100k thing. RoomTune hit in "89" and did our first CES in "90". We were in 87 show rooms during that show. Quite the fun introduction if any of you remember. The High End guys were fantastic and I was able to meet some of the greats in audio for the first time not as a dealer but designer. I think the Sahara is still pulling tape off of the showroom walls. The press was I would have to say generous in allowing me to visit many of their listening rooms and because of this RoomTune was in around 300 to 400 dealers within the first couple of years. I went on a fairly aggressive tuning spree that lasted about 3 years tuning rooms in some 30 or so countries, while the tuning team back home set up a room diagram responce network. I stay mostly in my own world but I believe the bigger home audio acoustical companies were ASC, RPG and us. My approach was so simple that we probably went in a lot more rooms than those guys. The CornerTune was kind of a no brainer even if you had other products from any of the other companies. I personally did as many rooms as I could get to. This momentum stayed on till about the time the mom and pop stereo store was reduced dramatically and the internet store became the supplier for most audiophiles. We were in pretty much all of the on-line stores for a few years. So yes I did 100,000 rooms myself and am now 112 years old  (I feel it).

I've done things both by ear and equipment but to be honest doing things by equipment is a drag and you end up doing it by ear anyway. Keep in mind though that there are some basic things that almost every room tunee can do right off the top to control a ton of the extra energy, which makes the tweaking in a room a lot easier. There are probably measuring junkies throwing darts at my poster right now, but I think from what I have seen there are two types of tunees. The analytical numbers guys and the do it guy. For me the fun is not in the numbers and tends to slow me way down. If you ask guys who watch me tune, I'm a pretty hands on guy who loves to get in the listening chair. Measuring to me is like this. If you have an interest in knowing on a frequency based chart where you have been ok, but for getting there well not so much. At the end of the day we're talking notes not charts. I've never had a chart tell me the difference between a Yamaha and a Steinway and I've had to tune lots of both.

BTW I know the rules here are not to promote products of your own so if I keep answers on more of a general page that's why. Also I do apperiate the whole picture, the engineer side and the tweak side and if you read some of the reviews you'll see my involvement in both, but for me playing with the personal dynamics of a room/system combo by ear is one of the most enjoyable things in my day.

be back in a few

thunder, I'm with you. I think we ought to market BS meters in the audiophile world. And even though yours might be pointed at me right now, it's something that we need to seriously consider. I can not even begin to tell (well I guess I am) you how many audiophile facts I have found to be fiction or something that someone likes in their own personal system and turns it into a product only to have the end user say "what? that did more damage than good". I believe in free enterprize but I also believe in BS meters big time. Hopefully this thread will do good things but if not I have my application in at Payless Shoes.

[Russell Dawkins]

Hi Michael. I'm curious - have you just discovered AudioCircle, or have you been lurking for a while?

You seemed to completely disappear from "the scene" around 18 years ago and I'm surprised to see you suddenly surface.

[michael green MGA]

How do you define "bigger" and in what context do you feel it is "more difficult"? In what way do you feel bigger "adds to the signal"? What do you mean by "locked in", and how does bigger "add to the distortion"? Are you asserting, for example, that B&W 800D's, Salk SoundScape 12's, Philharmonic 3's, and Magipan (pick your large version) are all more distorted than a pair of Polk Audio bookshelves?

You then use the word tune. Tune is the process of changing the frequency of output of an instrument. No speaker driver produces a frequency different from the one fed to it (the nature of a magnetic speaker). The cabinets and produce resonances, and there can be issues with cone breakup or any number of other concerns; but you can't feed a speaker a G and get an A instead.

The first sign of distortion is distortion?

I think you would do well to read "The acoustics and psycho-acoustics of speakers in rooms" by Dr.Toole. It would help you understand the off-axis portions of your later post.

I don't do comparisons like listeners and reviewers usually do so I wouldn't have or want to have a view on if the B&W and the others would be better or worse than Polk. When working on the sound I take a really big picture approach and don't believe in a model per say as being better than another based on the individual product. Everything I do is in the context of the whole system and all the variables. My job is to look for the ways in which a system works the best. There are products I do like better than others if comparing apples and apples but my involvement is usually not done that way. However I've been on a lot of heated trips where the client had his premium system setup and it wasn't working well and I ended up putting a more simple setup and have had the doors blown off of the clients #1.  Some of these visits have been quite memorable and the clients still get a hold of me laughing about the day the simple beat up on the very expensive out of tune system. But honestly I don't look at the $$$$ as having anything to do with sound. You did mention B&W though and I have great memories of visits with John when I was a lad. I've had several pairs of the old 801 and enjoyed voicing them.

As far as the "tune" comment I tune systems exactly like I tune instruments all day long and have for a long time now and my findings would different from yours quite a bit. Have you tried to mechanically tune a speaker? There's a huge difference in the signal coming in and the signal going out. You might have a lot of speaker folks taking issue with your statement but that's between you and them. If you want though some time I'll do a demo for you. Both G and A can sound many different ways when you are talking notes vs frequencies.

[Wayner]

I have the feeling that you are an "audio industry participant" or manufacturer, and according to Audiocircle rules, you must identify yourself, and the company you are affiliated with......

BTW, I suggest that everyone else slip on their barnyard boots, as that is where the cows and pigs take a dump. Must not get the good street shoes full of shit for when you go to town.

Wayner

[cheap-Jack]

Hi

Hi Michael for your long and interesting letter.

When I move back to Montreal, Canada, hopefully in a year or two
I will probably be living in a small apartment, (I will be retired)
therefore my system will be small, in size anyway.
But that does not mean I won't be happy with my last
and final sound system.

Guy 13

So were you from Montreal et parlez francais?

I'll be in Montreal next month for the staff X-mas party there (all parle francias). Hopefully I will meet you there some time next year in Montreal to listen to yr HiFi.

On dit anglais, d'ccord?

c-J

[michael green MGA]

Hi Russell

I think the last show I did was in "97" before my disappearing act. I was still around but wanted to do other things outside of the audiophile realm like be the acoustical product for UMI and work closely with SUNY and some of the bigger studios and private studios. All the trade shows were starting to burn me out. Here's the weird twist (every audiophile company or designer has to have a weird twist right) while off doing my thing I was completely unaware that other companies helped themselves to my designs and started making knock offs. I just thought I did a good job and saturated the market and the orders were trailing off.  When I moved to Nashville I was having fun with the music scene and didn't really pay much attention to High End except for the the folks who were more into me as a system designer and not so much strictly an acoustical designer. Tunable rooms were becoming an underground cult for both exotic audiophiles and studios. A lot of these folks stay off the radar and don't care to be in the public eye so I drifted even further away from the heart of the high end. I didn't find out about Audio Circle till after I was told that a company was selling my product on there under a different name. I didn't really want to get in the middle of that but did take the company to court. I have to say I was a little shocked that someone would want to do this but life goes on in the fast lane. I'm not the first and wouldn't be the last. I thought about getting involved here but thought it would look kind of funny having two companies using the same basic design? Do I believe this guy or do I believe that guy is not really my thing so I just stayed away from the scene and started doing design/consultant work for the Herman Miller company. Having RoomTune in the Herman Miller family of products was a very cool thing cause I always was a big fan of theirs. Don't know if you guys are up on them but in the designing world it's like the dream of dreams. About the same time I started tuneland but had no idea how to manage that big of a forum. I ended up archiving the first tuneland cause there were over 80,000 members and keeping up with that is nuts, so I went with a lot smaller scale site/forum just for the tunee crazys. So I've always been around and products have always been too, just not widely advertised like before.

Plus there was one more factor I didn't make a lot of noise like I once did. In the first years of RoomTune I would do shows with a lot of different high end systems of note. I have gotten into listening at a different level, and one that at the time I didn't think would fit well among the mainstream. For myself and many tunees it's cool but to a lot may seem odd. People really, really get attached to faceplates and name brands and I have pretty much moved away from this as being a criteria for great sound. I totally apperiate everyone in the business but in my listening and designing I have found some pretty big game changers for the sound of systems but it is the type of thing or things that not a ton of equipment makers would have found flattering.

[ServerAdmin]

The tagline for Industry Talk clearly states "Note: not to be used for posting promotional material" - so this thread is being moved elsewhere.

[JerryLove]

As far as the "tune" comment I tune systems exactly like I tune instruments all day long and have for a long time now and my findings would different from yours quite a bit. Have you tried to mechanically tune a speaker? There's a huge difference in the signal coming in and the signal going out.

Ok. So when you have a 2.2khz wave coming into the back of the speakers: what possible frequencies will "untuned" speakers put out and how, exactly, would one "tune" the speaker?

No need to cover every variation: but I'd really like to see one single example of changing the frequency of a speaker.

Also: You tune an instrument for each discrete sound source (you tune each string on a guitar, for example). A speaker is analog, having an infinite number of frequencies it can put out. How many do you tune?

[michael green MGA]

Happy Thanksgiving Guys!

Thanks for letting me come on Audio Circle and share. I know that the things I'm saying are hitting some of you guys as odd, impossible or weird but as you put to test yourselves these things your quite possibly going to find another side to the hobby that you didn't know was there. There is a huge number of people that have be listening with these methods and findings for years and have found the hobby to be much bigger than they once thought. I've noticed that some of you have been visiting the site and looking. I think it helps when looking into something to have many examples to study. Makes it more real and believable. It's one thing to have one or two fanatics raising their hand but when you have literally hundreds and even thousands doing something it's enough to get your attention.

Hi Jerrylove

Lets start with the simplest of simple test. Build your test cabinet or cabinets (when you get into the stage part). On the front of the cabinet make your interchangeable baffles. For this test doesn't matter if you know how to musically voice or not so don't knock yourself out. Now I use musical notes but I'm sure some of the guys still use frequencies.  So for music sake can we change this from C#7 minus 14minutes to C7 at 2093hz? Play your 2093hz and listen. Exchange the baffle with another of a different wood, again play the C#7. Completely different charactor to the sound. Every different baffle you use the sound changes and changes dramatically. Now I think it's important to note that if you take your baffle (any of them) and play the 2093hz through it using different pianos you also get completely different sounds. So the question should maybe be, why do different pianos sound different playing 2093/C#7 through the same loudspeaker, and when you change baffle boards why does it still measure at 2093hz and still sound different?

This gives us a whole new perspective of what is really going on. Don't take my word for it, try it and see if I'm telling the truth or not. We have done the testing hundreds of times in the development of what we do and I think if those in the hobby took a closer look at vibrations for what they are instead of trying to look at them from an audio theory of what I think, some big steps forward would happen.

[michael green MGA]

"Also: You tune an instrument for each discrete sound source (you tune each string on a guitar, for example). A speaker is analog, having an infinite number of frequencies it can put out. How many do you tune?" A very good question. My goal is to make things that cover the full range of the musical scale. This is why I'm very touchy about large scale dampening. You wouldn't put a big piece of foam, fiberglass, hunk of metal or poly in a piano unless you wanted it to sound like the dampener pedal plus some. It's not hard and doesn't take much to kill the specific musical note or for that note to loose it's distinctive personality. This doesn't only go for the loudspeaker but the components and all the conduits in the audio chains pathway.

Your entire signal pathway is very sensitive on both the plus and minus sides of the vibration spectrum. When I look into the signal path I'm looking for the input and output to be very close, leaving enough room for taste but not too far off the vibratory path. This goes from the very beginning with the power to the sound wave. What we have found is it doesn't take nearly as much dielectric to control the proper passage of the signal as what is found in most audio products. There are a few products out there that pass signal fairly well with a little tweaking but there are a ton of products that over do it. I would say 90 percent of my time is removing dampening away from the signal path to open the sound up enough to reproduce a musical note being played by a full range of instruments.

It works kind of like this when your listening. Lets say (to stay in the same area) we're going to focus on the sound of a Steinway in a fairly open room. There are tons of ways to mic it but so to make it generic lets say I want to pick up the sound in 3 stages going from the very close up to the very far away, close to the rooms limits. I record the piano in the middle of the room, put mics close up, mid way and then as I said all the way to the edge.  I mix it with the main focus on the keys and board but I build in a nice mid to far field halo. When I play it back I want to get to as close to this as posible. If I have too much dampening in the signal path I will only hear a very squeezed close up view of the instrument with a very small halo that is usually shifted up in pitch or really dulled out. From this point I start to remove things that are causing the dampening till I get the full stage effect happening in my room. Keep in mind I'm using the entire audio chain to do this. If I over dampen in any one of the areas mechanical acoustical or electrical I start to stray from the original recorded sound. After doing this type of thing for many years I have reversed my own personal method for getting great sound. Instead of me hunting for equipment and all the other products with too much dampening and having to remove tons to get to the full recording, I now use very minimalistic equipment that is a lot closer to having the amount of rightness material wise. This makes life a lot easier.