[AlliumPorrum]

I hope you don't mind, if I ask that could we for a while discuss about "Dipole basses for Maggies"..? ;=)

[jtwrace]

The science of sound ain't no mystery...or magic, to me  .

And for this, I still want to hear your speakers.   

[Danny Richie]

Thanks Dave.  The main issue I have is the "all or nothing" pitch. Because I believed it. Came here in '10 and Danny seemed very convincing. I know he means well, but he goes really over the top with the "nothing in the same league" comments about all his products, or tweaks. And he'll say that about everything, everything makes a huge difference, new cap, huge difference, new wires, huge difference. I now have a much clearer understanding of what these kinds of changes bring, and I think the wording is a bit disingenuous. It makes the uninitiated want to buy nothing but GR, so I supposed it's effective. But my experience is finding there are very much products in the same league.

Rclark,

When I find something that takes performance up a notch (anywhere in the system), I tend to get excited about it. And sometimes I find things that to me are a huge difference. My huge may not be the same as someone else's huge, but that's okay.

How was that Insignia upgrade that you got from me , BTW? Just as an example. I have had people tell me that the upgrade to those speakers made a "huge difference". For some, the enthusiasm might not be as high. Some my choose a different word.

And BTW, as another example. I also have offered non-servo based open baffle kits. I think they won't get too freaked out over me posting a link to it as it is discontinued (I am not trying to sell it).   http://gr-research.com/v-2.aspx  The kit was compared very favorably to other known open baffle designs. It used these woofers: http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-894s.pdf  And the moving mass is super light weight just like another recently talked about open baffle woofer. I'd have to say that the bass response from those dual 12's was very good. And the SA-1 amp that came with the kit had a transform circuit on it that allowed them to have pretty good extension. However, if anyone were to ask me how it compared to my 12" servo woofers in an open baffle, then I must confess that the servo subs are "in a different league". And that is NOT a disingenuous statement. It is a very genuine statement. It is my honest opinion and I am enthusiastic about it.

[THROWBACK]

Wow! What a discussion!
I have 3 12" OB GR subs on a side and I am pretty pleased with them. I had also tried out a number of other subs, but could not get them to integrate well with my Sound Labs. These are the best yet.
Are they perfect? No.
What would I like: More slam. As I understand it, the real low-bass impact in classical music actually comes from the 40-80Hz region (timpani, low piano notes, bass drum). Although my bass is clean, goes very low and has great texture, it still lacks the "startle factor" I have experienced in previous systems with x-mission lines (Hartley 24" in a huge home-made box).
Maybe: a. I am expecting too much; b. I was confusing distortion with slam; c. It's mostly a room problem; d. After much fiddling I still do not have the right setup. Maybe all or none of the above.
But, questions: a. Have the servo 12's reached their highest potential? b. Are you working on improvements to the drivers? c. Are you working on improvements to the amps? d. Would the bigger amps be better in my setup?
Don't get me wrong. You have a great product. This is all about my relentless pursuit of perfection.

[Rclark]

You're right Danny. In that case you are taking a "crossover" the size and significance of a saltine cracker (I actually saved one because it was so amusing, it was just a tiny little PCB), redesigning it, and using real parts, with bypassed caps, you are beefing up the enclosure many times over with hardening putty, you are covering that putty with No Rez. So taken as a whole, quite a change over stock. But starting with such an inferior product, top to bottom, it's pretty easy for you to make it better, as a whole.

Fyi the main differences  were: a touch better bass but still pretty weak, no more cabinet ringing, in fact, a dead cabinet which previously rang like a bell. But there was no increased difference in clarity. It was better, but IMO mostly from the cabinet refinement, which was huge. These were meant to be a long term set, but I grew restless and quickly gravitated to MMG's a month later, which blew them away.

However, when we are talking about your products, such as the servo subs, or your speakers, and when any other competing product comes into the discussion and you say you've heard it, and how it's garbage by comparison, when the reality is probably that it might be just as good, that's disingenuous. I think the "not in the same league" stuff is a little dishonest to people who don't have experience.

[Danny Richie]

Nyal,

I am sorry that your post seemed to have gotten overlooked. It was not. I agree with everything that you said in your first post. You have a great product and I think it is the best product of its kind and have said so before.

When you read what I have posted about your product or any other of its kind please know that I am one of the guys that you mentioned here in this statement that you made.

I have a few customers who have very pricey DACs (e.g. the TotalDAC, which is $10k+) and they have told me that the DEQX is not as good sonically as these more expensive DACs. As expected really! If you have a super high quality DAD, DCS then get a HDP-4 and use the digital outs. That is the optimal way to set up your system.

The digital that I am used to is at the top level of DAC's. And for me I can't go backward. And it is hard for me to recommend to my customers that are shooting for the best performance possible.

When in fact you do reach the levels of thee top level DAC's, plus digital crossover capabilities, then I would in fact recommend the product to my customers that are interested in trying something like that, and (hopefully) sell them drivers that they can use it with.

[Danny Richie]

but I grew restless and quickly gravitated to MMG's a month later, which blew them away.

The MMG's should blow them away. There is only some much that can be done with those $49 speakers.

The reason I used those Insigna speakers as an example for one was that you had made that upgrade. When people are excited about something they use comments like "huge difference".

But I never said anyone else's product was garbage, and I am always honest. And I may get over enthusiastic about something, but that is not being disingenuous. And I don't post my enthusiasm of something to make a sale. If I am excited about something it is genuine. Just ask another that knows me. 

[Danny Richie]

But, questions: a. Have the servo 12's reached their highest potential? b. Are you working on improvements to the drivers? c. Are you working on improvements to the amps? d. Would the bigger amps be better in my setup?
Don't get me wrong. You have a great product. This is all about my relentless pursuit of perfection.

I appreciate the pursuit of perfection. I wonder if Brian did get any of those bigger amps in yet? Brian....?

I don't think you will get any more total output the way you are running them because I don't think you are running out of amp. But a little more drive and headroom might give you what you are looking for.

Maybe we can send you some larger amps and we can see what they do. Brian...?

[JohnR]

Yeah OK, enough selling please Danny. Still looking for something concrete to demonstrate "stopping power."

[jtwrace]

The digital that I am used to is at the top level of DAC's.

Which one and why?

[Rclark]

The MMG's should blow them away. There is only some much that can be done with those $49 speakers.

The reason I used those Insigna speakers as an example for one was that you had made that upgrade. When people are excited about something they use comments like "huge difference".

But I never said anyone else's product was garbage, and I am always honest. And I may get over enthusiastic about something, but that is not being disingenuous. And I don't post my enthusiasm of something to make a sale. If I am excited about something it is genuine. Just ask another that knows me.

Well, you're not going to like this, but they blew the N1x's away too. Enthusiasm is awesome. All purveyors should be enthusiastic about their wares. And you do make good stuff. Again, my main point is the distracting way you detract from other products in a way I've not seen other guys do. For people just starting out, you are very convincing and make people believe only GR products are the way to go and everything else sucks, and of course, you've heard and measured everything else, so you say.

It's okay to say some other product is a good performer. As a "journeyman" audiophile now, with a view higher up on the hill, I can see now that maybe the things you say about other products might not be, or simply are not true. If your product truly is the best, you don't need to disparage, the product will speak for itself.

[Danny Richie]

Yeah OK, enough selling please Danny. Still looking for something concrete to demonstrate "stopping power."

Sorry John, just helping a customer out (Throwback). I an not selling him something. Brian might wind up selling him an amp. I just want him to be happy.

And I am going to work with Brain to figure out a way to measure the stopping power so that you guys that can't drop off of a listen will at least have some sense of what is so different. 

[Danny Richie]

Well, you're not going to like this, but they blew the N1x's away too.

That's okay. The MMG's are a completely different type of speaker than a mini-monitor. I am not bothered at all that you like them better.

[AlliumPorrum]

The digital that I am used to is at the top level of DAC's. And for me I can't go backward. And it is hard for me to recommend to my customers that are shooting for the best performance possible.

That was a good clarification, Danny, explains a lot. You talk of 10k$ for a DAC, I of ~10k$ for the whole system.

[HAL]

What about Brian's box that shows the difference between servo and non-servo operation with the same woofer that was at RMAF one year?  Does that still exist? 

It showed the motional feedback control difference with it on and off on the same driver.

Just a thought.

[Danny Richie]

Which one and why?

I am using a prototype DAC from db Audio Labs. I have been in the beta testing group for its development for the past year. Big strides have been made. No wait, "huge" strides have been made...   

I did A/B compare an earlier version of it to the Light Harmonic DaVinci DAC. That is another really good DAC. I think at the time it was $12k or something. The latest version is now $20k. So a bit pricey, but at the top of the performance chain.

[lowtech]

Yeah OK, enough selling please Danny. Still looking for something concrete to demonstrate "stopping power."

I'm still seeking evidence that the servo dipole woofers used in the "Super-V" are capable of reproducing 20Hz signals at 100+ db in a "normal" listening room with the mic placed at the listening chair.  If this claim (which I believe was made early in this thread) has already been proven please point me to the post.  This seems simple enough to measure, right?

[dBe]

I am using a prototype DAC from db Audio Labs. I have been in the beta testing group for its development for the past year. Big strides have been made. No wait, "huge" strides have been made...   

Per Steven Stone @ RMAF 2012: "Although the principal draw in the GR Acoustics room was Danny Ritchie’s new Super-Seven speakers for Serenity Acoustics ($19,995), DB Audio Labs’ Evolution 32/192 battery-powered DAC ($1495) displayed state-of-the-art finesse on my own 96/24 recordings of Chris Thile’s RockyGrass Academy workshop on improvisation."

Sucker sounds good.

The servo LF modules in the Super 7's had the room throbbing at 18Hz, too.  Ask anyone that was there.  I loved watching the expressions on people's faces as that 18Hz drop flooded the room.  Pretty cool.   

Dave

Dave

[dBe]

I'm still seeking evidence that the servo dipole woofers used in the "Super-V" are capable of reproducing 20Hz signals at 100+ db in a "normal" listening room with the mic placed at the listening chair.  If this claim (which I believe was made early in this thread) has already been proven please point me to the post.  This seems simple enough to measure, right?

It was measured in a room at RMAF a couple of years back.  I was there.  I measured it with my old AudioToolBox as did others with iPhone apps.  Of course you can always say I didn't... but I did.  Blew my mind.  The rooms' wall were moving about 1/8" when we were standing outside.

Back to the shop>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dave

[lowtech]

It was measured in a room at RMAF a couple of years back.  I was there.  I measured it with my old AudioToolBox as did others with iPhone apps.  Of course you can always say I didn't... but I did.  Blew my mind.  The rooms' wall were moving about 1/8" when we were standing outside.

Back to the shop>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dave

Not that I don't doubt you, Dave,... but has this been confirmed by anyone here in this thread using "real" test measurement gear?  If so, can someone please direct me to the post?