Looking for the Right Sub

Thebiker · « **on:** 14 Jun 2004, 04:14 pm »

I'm looking for advice for the final piece of a 2 channel system that has been a labor of love that I put together with the concept of diminishing returns in mind. Basically I wanted to not get crazy monetarily while still getting sound that makes me smile.

The system is a Manley Stingray with the switching option between triode and ultralinear and pre-amp outs. I'm running a Rotel 1072 HDCD and Phillips 963 for SACD and this is all connected into a pair of JM Lab Cobalt 816S's.

What I'm looking for is a musical sub that will fill out the under 40Hz range and complement the rest of the system. Subs that go BOOM need not apply as my main listening leans towards Classical, Jazz and Acoustic. Oh yeah, did I mention that I was cheap?

So, any recommendations would be appreciated.

The Biker

Carlman · « **Reply #1 on:** 14 Jun 2004, 04:28 pm »

I can provide a long list of what doesn't work unfortunately. It's really tough to find what you are looking for.

The size of your room may be a factor as well. It'd be good know that.

Do you have room for stereo subs? Many people feel that's a great way to go.

I've never heard a sub sound as detailed and musical as a good 3-way loudspeaker. I have owned a few of both and never seem to be able to get it right.

The closest so far has been an Adire 10" w/ a Hypex 200w amp. However, I think something is wrong with my amp so I've sent it away for repairs. It's a sealed design, custom cabinet with a total cost around $600. I don't think you'll find what you're looking for any cheaper.

I was going to try the GR Research sub next if the amp repair doesn't fix things.

Tyson · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 Jun 2004, 04:38 pm »

VMPS Original subs are the fastest, most musical subs I've heard, by a long shot, and I've heard a LOT of subs in my time. Highly recommended.

ohenry · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Jun 2004, 04:57 pm »

You should consider the TBI products. I have the Magellan VI and find it to be very musical and not overly expensive. The small size is icing on the cake.

Thebiker · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 Jun 2004, 06:29 pm »

Room size would be helpful. Medium sized room, 22 x 16 with 9 ft ceilings.
I would like to avoid going to 2 subs if at all possible. This is the master bedroom and by the time you get the necessary furniture, the gear rack, the wall mounted CD rack and a pair of floor standing speakers, there's not a ton of space left.

I figure the WAF will tolerate one sub. It's good to be married to a musician.

Biker

MaxCast · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 Jun 2004, 07:48 pm »

A couple more to think about. Adire Audio Rava, ACI Force or Titan II.
Be sure to check the speaker fanufacturers here at AC. I think just about all are offering a sub.
Can you DIY?

rosconey · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 Jun 2004, 08:10 pm »

vmps large

Levi · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Jun 2004, 11:20 pm »

If you can audition a REL Storm or Stadium for larger room. It has speaker level input if you do not want to use sub-out.

sfpepper · « **Reply #8 on:** 15 Jun 2004, 12:05 am »

What you are NOT looking for, IMHO, is any sub with a passive radiator.
Large, Small, Medium, Neo or Supersized. I would start with a light cone
large motor Sealed. Rocket UFW 10, RAD 10 come to mind.

regards, steve

Pocketchange · « **Reply #9 on:** 15 Jun 2004, 12:16 am »

Contact Mr. BC @ VMPS, order The LARGER SUB KIT with all the add ons.
Add to this the pleasure of finding a good stereo amp because the Larger Sub ISN'T powered and you will be much closer to heaven IMO.
You could easily spend a great deal more money but you will not enjoy a better sounding sub, which can be split for stereo and be biwired , rolling off the main speakers if you so desire.

ps, I have one and boy am I

spectralman · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 Jun 2004, 12:58 am »

While I have not heard one, I would also vote for consideration of the ACI Titan II. It has gotten some excellent reviews as a very musical and fast sub. Also, WAF should be relatively high r/t size and cabinetry.

NealH · « **Reply #11 on:** 15 Jun 2004, 01:37 am »

Some interesting reading on the subject.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=390720

Carlman · « **Reply #12 on:** 15 Jun 2004, 02:00 am »

Interesting read indeed. Glad I don't visit that forum much. Way too many cowboys, opinions, and mud-slinging. It reduces the validity of the review... IMO, YMMV, etc.

doug s. · « **Reply #13 on:** 15 Jun 2004, 12:32 pm »

if yure doing two-channel, whichever sub you end up choosing, two is mandatory, imo. unless a single sub can be placed *exactly* centered between the monitors, soundstage will be degraded. two subs, flanking the monitors, will improve your soundstage.

doug s.

Eric · « **Reply #14 on:** 15 Jun 2004, 06:22 pm »

I would second the vote for the ACI Titan. It is tight, fast and musical

Terry · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Jun 2004, 09:22 pm »

Quote from: Thebiker

I'm looking for advice for the final piece of a 2 channel system that has been a labor of love that I put together with the concept of diminishing returns in mind. Basically I wanted to not get crazy monetarily while still getting sound that makes me smile.

What I'm looking f ...

The problem with just about evey sub that I have tried is that they add colouration in the midrange. The primary, but not the only, reason for this is that they introduce a crossover directly into the signal path. The other principle reason is that the subwoofer cone continues to operate well into the operating range of the main speakers.

The only sub that I have tried in my system that has avoided these problems and has integrated perfectly with my Reference 3A DeCappos is the REL Strata III. A single Strata placed in a corner adds foundation to the music without drawing attention to itself. People can't believe that it is even on until I turn it off and the difference is then obvious. The REL Stadium and Studio, which have also been mentioned, will definitely go lower and louder but they are more difficult to integrate in an all music system (not to mention they cost an arm and a leg) as they are not a sealed enclosure like the Strata.

doug s. · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 01:23 am »

Quote from: Terry

The problem with just about evey sub that I have tried is that they add colouration in the midrange. The primary, but not the only, reason for this is that they introduce a crossover directly into the signal path. The other principle reason is that the subwoofer cone continues to operate well into the operating range of the main speakers....

it's obvious you haven't heard a pair of vmps', w/a quality outboard x-over, like the ones made by marchand.

w/24db/octave slope, the subs don't operate anywhere near the midrange, they barely operate in the upper bass. and, whatever minimal signal degradation is done by the active x-over, it's more than made up for by relieving the monitors of the duty of playing low bass. the monitors midrange will *improve* w/the addition of a quality active x-over & a pair of quality subs.

doug s.

Carlman · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Jun 2004, 01:36 am »

Quote from: doug s.

it's obvious you haven't.... yadda yadda

Yeah, his statement, "The problem with just about evey sub that I have tried.." kind of makes that obvious. Should people start listing every single speaker, listening room, measurements, and whatnot when they post their experiences? Would that be enough?

SteveRB · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 Jun 2004, 04:28 pm »

an excellent sub is the Allegro by an indipendant canadian manufacturer ISD. it is incredably fast and musical. a small 7 1/2" isobaric driver. which means there are two drivers sealed together inside front to back facing the same direction. the result is they move more air like a bigger driver but mover very efficiently like a smaller cone.

the website isn't much to look at but check it out www.athomehifi.com.
give the guy a call you will not be disapointed

doug s. · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 Jun 2004, 05:33 pm »

Quote from: Carlman

Quote from: doug s.
it's obvious you haven't.... yadda yadda

Yeah, his statement, "The problem with just about evey sub that I have tried.." kind of makes that obvious. Should people start listing every single speaker, listening room, measurements, and whatnot when they post their experiences? Would that be enough?

carl,

i'm not sure what point it is yure trying to make, but it's obvious yure missing *my* point. which is simply: regardless of which brand of sub yure using, powered or passive, you will most likely get better results if it's actively crossed over to your monitors w/a quality active outboard x-over. if yure using powered subs, yust set 'em to their highest x-over setting, & then use the electronics of the outboard x-over.

most all speakers will benefit from not seeing the lowest frequencies even if it does introduce another component between them & the source. this is cuz it's the amp that sees the crossover, & it's wery transparent when inserted here. there's wirtually no change to what the speaker sees, yust that the amp is not sending the lowest frequencies to the speaker. it's *passive* x-overs that have much more of a sonic signature on speaker drivers, not the active ones, before the amps...

ymmv,

doug s.