[jarcher]

jarcher, my initial thoughts were to use the CD player for direct audio (with the Yamaha amp) without using the AVR. Your post has got me thinking...hmm....if I did what you recommend would not the processing in the Onkyo colour the sound? If the Onkyo NR1010  is equal to the Yamaha S2000 as an audio device then it would mose sense to sell the Yamaha S2000 and replace it with a power amp. What do you think?

I was under the impression that for 2 channel audio a good integrated like the S2000 would outperform any AVR costing twice as much including those like the Arcam AVR 400 leave alone lesser ones like the Yamaha Aventage A2020 or Onkyo NR1010. Granted the 1010 might have a great DAC. What about the rest of the processing in it?

I was thinking you'd use the Onkyo receiver as the DAC & Pre-amp to the Yamaha S2000 via the "Main In" (i.e. amplifier in) inputs in the Yamaha.  This way you could still use the Yamaha as the amplifier to your main speakers.  Many people add integrated amps to a receiver that way to provide dedicated / higher quality / more powerful amplification to the their main two speakers.  I know I did this for a while with a Marantz receiver & a Krell integrated amp I had. 

BUT - it's worth experimenting to see if the Onkyo receivers internal amplifiers are sufficiently powerful & have the quality you want vs your Yamaha as an external amp.  Let's your ears make the decision for you.

In my opinion, theoretically a good integrated amp really designed for 2 channel stereo should be better vs even a high end receiver, in part because of the compromises needed to be made for all the additional features of a receiver.  But again, let your ears make the decision.  Even mass market stuff has gotten pretty darn good - and many have that "direct / pure direct" modes to bypass a lot of the potential noise inducing circuitry.  E.g. the Marantz AV7005 processor I got is really more than good enough vs Anthem / Krell processors I tried at a fraction of the cost - and honestly not so head and shoulders above it's receiver cousins in terms of sound quality.

As for selling the Yamaha - if you bought it new & have a lot of money in it, my personal feeling is keep it and use it in a second system.  If you bought it used, don't have a lot of money in it, and don't otherwise plan to use it, then maybe sell if your Onkyo receiver meets your needs.

Lastly, I wouldn't invest much more than $200 for the Onkyo CD7030 in a CD transport (or used your DVD / Blu Ray player if you have one).  If the Onkyo internal DAC is insufficient quality-wise, put more of the money in an external DAC, as others have suggested.

[navin]

  Never heard it.  Marantz isn't even showing that model on their US site.  I'm sure it's pretty good.  Marantz has a much deserved stellar reputation for digital playback.

After reading the thoughts and  opinions here it is clear there are 2 options.

A. The original option of using a CD player and the Yamaha as a dedicated 2 Chanel system and treating the Onkyo and the video sources (DVD, BluRay, PS3, Set top box, Wii, etc) as an add-on for 7.2. This means having a decent CD player with a good internal DAC (I dont have room for a 2 box solution of transport + DAC).

B. using the Onkyo for all the switching and processing (including DAC) and maybe using an external 2 Chanel power amp to drive the front speakers (there by reducing the load on the Onkyo's power supply) and using a basic transport like the Onkyo 7030 and the Onkyo's DAC.

Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on
- Stairway to Heaven, Led Zeppelin.

Jarcher, instead of the Onkyo would a CD/DVDBlu Ray player like the Philips 5200 or Panasonic 220 linked to in an earlier post work as well?

[jarcher]

I'm personally more of the mind of option B only because I think it might be a mistake investing too much in a stand alone CD player these days (unless it has a lot of the additional functionality previously mentioned).

As for what makes a good cd player transport, that's probably a longer conversation.  If you were to consider used, I think a lot of people like the old Pioneer Elite CD players because of the robustness of the hardware.  I personally think a Rega Apollo - old or new "R" version - would make a very good transport.  There's a lot of stuff on how they optimize the transport mechanism, the power supply for the digital side, the software-side, and the memory buffer, the combination of all I think does good in squeezing all the info off the cd and passing it along out the digital output. Used Apollo's in the US go for $500 or so, but the new R's go for $850 demo or $1100 new. 

On the other hand - that money could be put into a home theater / music server w/ an optical drive (whether internal or via USB etc).......

To more specifically answer your question : I suspect the Onkyo 7030 would be a better cd transport than the Panasonic BDT220, if nothing else because of it's robustness + the power supply side.  But again - do you want to put even that $200+ into a cd player when it could go towards the home theater / music server......

To make things less confusing : I'd either use an existing cd / dvd player as a temporary transport feed to the receiver - and if you don't have that, then maybe the Panasonic BDT220 because it's a good Blu Ray player. Save your money & focus more on putting together your home theater / music server and a high quality DAC if you want to surpass the Onkyo receiver.  If the server you buy or make doesn't have an internal cd / dvd / blu ray transport, you could always hook one up via USB. Somehow you're gonna want to rip your music collection to it anyway...and at that point, I suspect you may never want to mess with the physical cd's again.

[jimdgoulding]

I haven't read the replies to your post, mate, but I'm gonna suggest the OPPO 95 for 1k.  It ain't cheap, but it plays a lotta formats and is garnering very fine reviews. 

In the $500.00 range.  Well, I use a Bel Canto 1.1 DAC with a Sony DVD transport that just wiggles into that range used.  Come back for dig interconnects.

Cheers

[navin]

Used Apollo's in the US go for $500 or so, but the new R's go for $850 demo or $1100 new. 

To more specifically answer your question : I suspect the Onkyo 7030 would be a better cd transport than the Panasonic BDT220, if nothing else because of it's robustness + the power supply side.  But again - do you want to put even that $200+ into a cd player when it could go towards the home theater / music server......

To make things less confusing : I'd either use an existing cd / dvd player as a temporary transport feed to the receiver - and if you don't have that, then maybe the Panasonic BDT220 because it's a good Blu Ray player. Save your money & focus more on putting together your home theater / music server and a high quality DAC if you want to surpass the Onkyo receiver.  If the server you buy or make doesn't have an internal cd / dvd / blu ray transport, you could always hook one up via USB. Somehow you're gonna want to rip your music collection to it anyway...and at that point, I suspect you may never want to mess with the physical cd's again.

Some nice ideas there.

The Regas will not work for me as they are top loading. From your post what you seem to be saying is to get a good used CD player for under $200 and connect it via it's SPDIF out to a good DAC. Jimggoulding seems to be saying the same thing. I guess I was looking for a single box solution because of space restrictions. My choices in this area would be either the NAD 565 bee, Advance Acoustics MCX 400, Arcam CD17, Marantz SA KI Pearl Lite or Exposure 2010S2 ($1000 to 1700).

My thoughts were to first focus on good 2 channel playback and only then focus on video and home theatre.

[JLM]

Your cheap or mine?   

As mentioned above, I look at an Oppo 93 (if still available).  And too bad you're so far from the U.S. because the Upgrade Company does marvelous things to the Oppo players.  For $1300 they sell a modded 93 that kicks!

Plus as mentioned above, you'd have all the formats covered.  Later on with more space you could move it into a HT system.

[medium jim]

I still like the Rotel RCD1072....one of the best and when it came out was being compared to CDP costing many times more $$$...the Rotel lists for $700.00USD. 

Used can be found under $400.00.   They're very tube like in their presentation and are built like a tank.


http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=24&Tab=1&Pic=1

Jim

[navin]

Your cheap or mine?   

As mentioned above, I look at an Oppo 93 (if still available).

Plus as mentioned above, you'd have all the formats covered.  Later on with more space you could move it into a HT system.

Talking of budgets. Just came back from hearing a simple system using Simaudio D260 CD player, i250 amplifier and a pair of Proac Response D38. Yes it only spins discs but does a wonderful job with the right discs. Cost of system in India: $8500 including interconnects and speaker cable. Systems like these are not uncommon here and they say India is a poor country!!! LOL.

BTW how reliable and rugged are the Oppo? For the bedroom my wife wants a single box solution so I was thinking of getting her a Oppo 103 (expected local price about $1100). Here the AVR is an Arcam 400 because she likes to do her listening in the bedroom and I wanted to make it simple for her with few buttons to press. Her speakers will be Selah's Tempesta Extremes (see The Lab for pics) along with a 12" subwoofer from TC sounds and a pair of S6 for the rear.

Back to my system. I was under the impression that a good CD player would / should do audio better than an Oppo just like a good Integrated amplifier should outperform an equally priced AVR ( or even some at twice the price).

Hence I figured let's build a good stereo setup and then add 7.2, video and media players to the set up for those occasions when we really want to experience a movie or sporting event (F1 racing, cricket and tennis are what I follow). Right now the KI Pearl light ($1300) and Oppo 103 ($1100) are looking very interesting. Oh and BTW is SACD still alive?   http://www.hifi-advice.com/sacd-info.html

Jarcher, Just got a call. I can get a barely used NAD 565bee for about $750 (a new one will cost about $1000 - about the same price as the Arcam CD17 and Advance Acoustics MCX 400 mentioned earlier). Would the DAC in the NAD, Arcam or even the KI Pearl Lite's be bested by the one in the Onkyo?

Once I get the audio section finalised, I will add a Panasonic 220 as well. The 220 is available sauced up to play just about any BluRay you throw at it.  and local libraries will rent you Blurays. The advantages of living in the developing world I guess.

Getting little ahead of myself, what is a good hard disk based media player? Are Western Digital's WD TV or Asus's Oplay live any good. The application is mostly for lossless audio and movies.

Jim, sadly the Rotel 1072 is not available. I don't want to go through the hassles of importing to India. It is not a straight forward process as I found out when importing speakers from Rick Craig. Rick is a patient man so it eventually worked out but it was painful. How is the 1520 instead? That is available.

[jarcher]

The more I look at that Panasonic 220, the more impressed I am. It'll serve as a transport for your CDs, it will play your blu rays, AND it can work as a media streamer (via network or USB) AND smartphone remote control, for $200? 

Between that and your onkyo receiver, you really don't even need a media server pc - just an external USB  hard drive.

I would seriously use this with your onkyo receiver, and if you want better sound from there, invest in a +USD$700 standalone DAC to connect via digital out from the onkyo receiver.

Seriously - investing up to USD$1k in a standalone cd player (or even USD$1K blu ray player) when you have the above option is a total waste of money.  Use the money you save for the DAC, speakers, whatever.

[medium jim]

Navin:

I don't have 1st hand experience with the 1520, but would guess it is good.  Rotel is a Mid-Fi company who makes audiophile quality stuff.

Jim

[geowak]

Thank you all for your response. Audiocircle's forums do not yet have a multi-quote feature or I'd have addressed all those who responded together.

Based on the response I figured you need some more information.

1. I live in India and would like to buy something local (exposure, NAD, simaudio, Arcam etc are all available locally and the Oppo 103 is available in the grey market). I don't have the time or inclination to do the importing myself. Besides there would be no support. With speakers it is easy as there are few parts but with electronics you need support.

2. That said many if not most brands are available here however since volumes are thin and availability sketchy prices are all list+dealer margins. Discounts are very, very rare. The Rotel for example sels for over $1700 and the TEAC is just not available.

3. I do intend to add a hard disk based media player from Asus and/or Western digital. Most of my CDs have already been ripped to WavPack or/and FLAC (about 1TB of music) but I also like the whole process of spinning a disk (if I had room I'd have retained and even added to my LP collection but living in a small Mumbai apartment does not give me that option).

4. The Marantz 8004 is also not available although the 6004 and KI pearl are. The former sells for about $500 and the later for about $1500.

5. In my limited experience I have found wireless via bluetooth or wifi does not have the fidelity of a wired connection. So while AirPlay is convienient it would not be my primary listening.

6. On an unrelated note the Yamaha amplifier will be used by an Onkyo NR1010 AVR as a power amp. This is because the same system is being used for 2 channel and 7.1 and the front speaker (subwoofer less RC4) will do double duty. So in 7.1 the Onkyo will feed information from the set-top box and DVD player and other video devices to the power amp section of the Yamaha (which in turn is connected to the front speakers). In 2 channel mode the Onkyo and other video related devices are not in the picture. It will be a simple sginal path from CD player to Amplifier to Speakers

I understand that having a digital coax and USB inputs would be a bonus. Neither the Arcam 17 or Simaudio Moon 230 have this. From my original list the NAD has an optical input (is TOSlink still a poor option??) and I don't know about the advance Acoustics.

I believe the Oppo 105 is not shipping yet. The 103 has only just become available (in the grey market it sells for about $750). The Oppo 95 was available at about $1500 and I assume the 105 would retail for close to $2000 here when it starts shipping.

So far the Rotel 1072 and Marantz 8004 have become valid options if indeed I can find them for $1200 pr so. Either that or bite the bullet and get the Exposure 2010S2 for $1700 or NAD 565 bee for about $900. Any other options? Is the Exposure so much better than the NAD? Does it make sense to sacrifice USB or coax inputs and get the Arcam 17 or Simaudio moon 230D instead?

Maybe you should clarify and focus now..

It seems that you want to buy something local from your post. It also seems that you want higher fidelity sound,
since you don't want to go wireless. And at one point it seems that you will add a HD media player, but at another post you want a one box solution??

If you want to concentrate on what you can listen to locally, that would eliminate many suggestions offered here. Also decide if higher quality sound is what you are after. Many one box CD/DVD players, and even SACD combo players make compromises and do not offer the best sound. If flexibility is what you want, sometimes HQ sound is not what you'll get in one box ...unless you pay mucho money. Once again, what is offered locally is what your choices are?!? Yes??
 
Everyone is different. For me, the best HQ sound I can get for the money is what I am after. Flexible systems are second. But I can, and have had things shipped to me that I could not listen to locally. A Rega Apollo was purchased with a 30 day trial and money back offer, and with much luck I liked it enough to keep it.  Most of the time, I would
spend the time to go have a listening session with the component I had an interest in acquiring.

Food for thought...

[navin]

The more I look at that Panasonic 220, the more impressed I am. It'll serve as a transport for your CDs, it will play your blu rays, AND it can work as a media streamer (via network or USB) AND smartphone remote control, for $200? 

Between that and your onkyo receiver, you really don't even need a media server pc - just an external USB  hard drive.

I would seriously use this with your onkyo receiver, and if you want better sound from there, invest in a +USD$700 standalone DAC to connect via digital out from the onkyo receiver.

Seriously - investing up to USD$1k in a standalone cd player (or even USD$1K blu ray player) when you have the above option is a total waste of money.  Use the money you save for the DAC, speakers, whatever.

Great idea. Maybe I am looking at this backwards. Maybe I should get the video and media devices first and see if they satisfy my audio needs. It may be that since I had a hammer ( the Yamaha S 2000) I was looking for a nail.

Geowak,

The last post of mine digressed to the bedroom system which will mostly be used by my better half. She will have Tempesta Extreme loudspeakers and She wanted a one box solution like the Oppo.To retain some semblance of fidelity I figured she should use a more audio centric AVR like the Arcam 400.

 My system uses RC4 (without the active subs) loudspeakers. I already have a Yamaha S2000 integrated amplifier. My goal was to first get a good stereo system and then add an AVR (Onkyo 1010) and video and media players for 7.2 use (with a centre and rear speakers of course). The integrated amplifier would drive the front speakers (RC4) and the Onkyo the other 5 speakers.

Jarcher came up with a wonderful suggestion of first setting up the video equipment since it the DVD player can do audio via the Onkyo's DAC and use the Yamaha as a 2 channel power amp. If this does NOT satisfy then either add an external DAC or audio CD player if indeed CD players are still so much better than a simple transport like the Panasonic 220 used with either Onkyo's internal or an external DAC.

As far as importing is concerned, beyond the fact that delivery and customs are a hassle and assuming I am able to return the goods I would still not recover the duties and taxes (about 80% of the good price) and would have to prove to customs that the price on the invoice is actually correct and "reasonable". India is not an easy country to work in.

I hope this clarifies.

In your experience do you believe a stand alone CD player like the Arcam CD17, NAD 565 bee or Marantz KI Pearl lite is better than a simpler machine like the Onkyo C7030 or Panasonic 220 used with an external DAC (under $500)?

[jarcher]

Hey Navin:

I keep thinking, particularly as you already have most your cds ripped, that you'll very soon go to the convenience of PC based audio, so spending a lot of money on a cd transport doesn't make much sense.  But from your posts, I'm seeing that I'm wrong & that you really want to spin those little shiny suckers as best as possible.

For that reason I really think that you'll rest easy just getting an Oppo 95.  It will be a great transport, it will be a great DAC, it will be a great blu ray player.  And yes, build quality & reliability & sound quality will be as good or better than anything you've already mentioned.  Yes - it's that good.  Look at their website & you'll see that audio & videophile reviewers alike love the thing & have showered it with awards.

As for importing - having lived abroad the better part of my life I can sympathize w/ the hassles. As it seems that India has a 35K rps / USD$650 duty free allowance, I'd just get some kind friend / family member / etc whose coming from abroad to bring it with them.  Don't think India customs could imagine it actually costs $1,000 (55K rps)!  No duty / no hassles. 

Best of luck to you!

[navin]

I keep thinking, particularly as you already have most your cds ripped, that you'll very soon go to the convenience of PC based audio, so spending a lot of money on a cd transport doesn't make much sense.  But from your posts, I'm seeing that I'm wrong & that you really want to spin those little shiny suckers as best as possible.

As for importing - having lived abroad the better part of my life I can sympathize w/ the hassles. As it seems that India has a 35K rps / USD$650 duty free allowance, I'd just get some kind friend / family member / etc whose coming from abroad to bring it with them.  Don't think India customs could imagine it actually costs $1,000 (55K rps)!  No duty / no hassles.

Yes I do want both options but I want to get the best possible reproduction without getting into mad budgets

I understand from your post that the Oppo 95 (and later 105) will outperform (as an audio player) any of the CD players mentioned (including the Exposure 2010S2, Arcam CD17, Marantz Ki Pearl Lite, NAD 565bee etc..). How does the Oppo 103 compare with these CD players?

As far as importing is concerned. No I do not feel right bothering any relatives or friends to carry such large items with them. Since you understand Rupees and Dollars, right now the Oppo 103 is available in local market for about Rs. 60,000 ($1100). The KI Pearl Lite is Rs. 70,000, NAD 565bee is Rs. 43,000 (barely used), Arcam CD17 is Rs. 56,000 and Exposure 2010S2 is Rs. 90,000.

Now if i do get the Oppo 103 or 105 (will be available sometime later next year) these are EU models available locally via a UK dealer's sub dealer to which amplifier do I hook up the Oppo. Can I hook it's Audio RCA analogue output to the Yamaha and it's HDMI and digital coax (SPDIF) output to the Onkyo?

if this is what you recommend I think maybe the best option for me is to first get the video solution up for my system (using the Panasonic 220) and at best spring for the NAD 565bee as a stop gap till the Oppo 105 becomes avaialble.

For my wife I'll get her the Oppo 103.

[jarcher]

Yes - I would say the Oppo 95 is better than NAD, Marantz, Exposure, Arcam - though a big disclaimer : I do not have PERSONAL experience with all those units.  Stereophile's 2012 recommended components has the Oppo 95 in the "A" class (it's actually the cheapest in that classs): the NAD, "C" class. Marantz Pearl, Exposure, Arcam : not even on the list. 

http://www.stereophile.com/content/2012-recommended-components-disc-players-transports-media-players

The Oppo 103 is not an "audiophile" player.  Think of it as similar to a 95 WITHOUT all the high end DAC / analog audio section. 

See: http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-95/blu-ray-BDP-95-Compare.aspx

The 103 is a very good blu ray player for $500, but so is a Panasonic 220 for less than $200. I'd get your wife a 220, let her Arcam do the audio, and save yourself the money for your Oppo or whatever.  I really don't think she's going to hold it against you - she'll likely just want whatever is easiest to use & takes up the least amount of space. Hook up a portable hard drive w/ her favorite music to it's USB port - there's even a free smartphone remote app so she can put away the ugly remote (the ladies hate the remote controls).

If you get an Oppo 95, I would hook up the stereo audio out to the Yamaha, and HDMI to Onkyo. If the Onkyo had multi channel analog input, I'd say do that.  But it doesn't and I wouldn't sweat it too much for movies / video anyway.

I don't see much reason to wait for the Oppo 105 unless you really thing you're going to need it's additional input / outputs.  The most important to me being the  asynchronous USB input if you had a home theater pc / media server.  But as both the Oppo can be a server, there's less need for a separate pc. Sometimes the difference between a new & old model just comes down to some additional connectivity.

And I wouldn't be shy about imposing on a friend / relative.  They can just check in the box as an additional piece of luggage (or better yet, if you don't care about the box, wrap it carefully within their luggage). Why let the precious luggage allowance go to waste!  They'll be happy to make you happy at little cost & inconvenience to themselves.

[navin]

Yes - I would say the Oppo 95 is better than NAD, Marantz, Exposure, Arcam

The Oppo 103 is not an "audiophile" player....but so is a Panasonic 220 for less than $200. I'd get your wife a 220, let her Arcam do the audio.... Hook up a portable hard drive w/ her favorite music to it's USB port - there's even a free smartphone remote app so she can put away the ugly remote (the ladies hate the remote controls).

If you get an Oppo 95, I would hook up the stereo audio out to the Yamaha, and HDMI to Onkyo. If the Onkyo had multi channel analog input, I'd say do that. 

I don't see much reason to wait for the Oppo 105 unless you really thing you're going to need it's additional input / outputs.

And I wouldn't be shy about imposing on a friend / relative.

So what you recommend is to use the Oppo 95 (or Oppo 105) for audio and video discs.  I think the Oppo 95 can be had locally for about Rs. 80,000 ($1600-1700) I would have to check. I had earlier discounted the Oppo  95 because I figured a jack of all player should not be able to do audio as well as a dedicated audio player.

What about the NuForce Oppo 93NE? What does the 105 have over the 95 - I do not think I will need any PC inputs?

If we replace give my wife's the Panasonic 220 will she get adequate audio quality? The Arcam 400, BTW, is the AVR not a CD player hence she would have to use the Panasonic for audio CDs too. Maybe I should get her an Oppo 95 too. She prefers to spin disks than go through a HD library. Is the Oppo 103 just a new Oppo 93 or does it compare with the Oppo 95?

Most friends travel with their baggage allowances (weight) used up. I would rather pay the local price. It is easier.

Edit: OMG Just saw the rear panel of the Oppo. It has XLR out. For my system I can use that with the Yamaha S2000 Integrated.
http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-95/images/BDP-95-back-hr.jpg

http://www.productwiki.com/upload/images/yamaha_a_s2000_2.jpg

Also noticed that the Arcam AVR has a Coax in and the Oppo has Coax out. For my wife's system should I used coax for audio? Which (Oppo 95 or Arcam AVR 400) would have a better DAC?
http://www.avland.co.uk/aasp/arcam/1120/avr400/rearlrg.jpg

http://www.stereophile.com/content/oppo-95-vs-krell-20i-cd-player
The bad from the link above
"I owned the Oppo-95 and the aforementioned player from Krell and Ayre(on extended loan).  The Oppo was uniquely, one of the most odd sounding players I have ever heard in my life...and I've heard quite a bit folks, up to levinson reference players and Wadia's best.  Everything I played sounded like it had been put through a DS processor...I know, weird right?  But after using it for awhile, and evaluating all my favorite recordings that I had enjoyed on many of my other reference players and systems, I began to hear the oppo inflicting itself upon every disc I played, as if it were being put through the "Concert Hall" setting of a reciever...remember those atrocities?  It was subtle, but to someone who has heard a ton of great players and who doesn't need to sell advertising space, I realized that what I just bought was a multifunction audio equivelant of the  "swiss army knife" for $1000 MSRP.  I sold it immediately once my ear/brain figured out the trick it was pulling.  For Faux high end sound it's A ok, but for the real deal...well, you need the real deal.  FYI, I am refering to the performance of the Oppo-95 on 2 channel CD and SACD playback only:O)"

The good again from the link above
"Now the punch line; the OPPO BDP-95 is significantly better-sounding than the Ayre for CD or SACD playback! It is by far the best I have ever heard.
 
It is an incredible leap in quality.; absolutely awesome! For $1000, it is such a bargain that it is a no-brainer to recommend it to just about anyone.
 
I think it has made every player from $800 to $8000 obsolete and irrelevant. If I was in a company making such a player, I would be crying the blues right now."

the ugly From Oppo.
Called the local Oppo guy. He said the Oppo 95 had issues in India due to heat and fan failures. He recommends either waiting for the 105 (which he says is fanless) or getting the 103 with an external DAC. I asked if I can compare the 103 against another CD player but he has none in stock - he will only order one against a firm order with advance.

Back to the drawing board.