New drivers are here.

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Trismos

Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #40 on: 30 Oct 2012, 12:13 pm »


And again the best performance will be had if you can get those subs away from your main speakers.



Why is that? Phasing?

mykyll2727

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #41 on: 30 Oct 2012, 03:10 pm »
Why is that? Phasing?



I too am very interested in knowing why.

Danny Richie

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #42 on: 30 Oct 2012, 03:54 pm »
Subs have a lot of moving forces. Especially a large diameter sub like this one that is on carpet and is not using floor spikes. The amount of vibration that is transmitted into whatever is setting on the subs is considerable. And if that is one of the Rythmik cabinets then it is 3/4" thick with a cross brace. It is not a real solid cabinet and there are additional panel resonances from the box itself.

All of that force and resonances being transmitted into the mains speakers is not good. They really should be separated.

With the main speakers in their own box and away from the subs there should be a considerable amount of increased clarity. Imaging will also improve.

mykyll2727

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #43 on: 30 Oct 2012, 04:22 pm »
Danny, thanks!

Also I looked but I didn't see it, could be I missed it, but what would you say is the usable frequency range of your new 6.5" drivers in a sealed enclosure?

Hank

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #44 on: 30 Oct 2012, 04:24 pm »
Danny, how much less would your new driver cost without all that coppler plating?

Danny Richie

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #45 on: 30 Oct 2012, 05:02 pm »
Danny, thanks!

Also I looked but I didn't see it, could be I missed it, but what would you say is the usable frequency range of your new 6.5" drivers in a sealed enclosure?

For the 8 ohm woofer the optimal sealed is .675 cubic feet with a -3db at 71Hz. Optimal ported is 1.29 cubic feet with a -3db at 34.6Hz.

For the 16 ohm woofers in pairs the optimal sealed is 2.5 cubic feet with a -3db at 65.6Hz. Optimal ported is 3.2 cubic feet with a -3db at 31.5Hz.

Danny, how much less would your new driver cost without all that coppler plating?

I need the Copper plating on the Aluminum phase plug. It is not as important in the top and back plates. If it were dropped there then it would only save a few bucks. Not a big deal. The real hit to the price is the Neodymium magnet on the pole piece. Neo is pretty high now.

mykyll2727

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #46 on: 30 Oct 2012, 05:41 pm »
For the 8 ohm woofer the optimal sealed is .675 cubic feet with a -3db at 71Hz. Optimal ported is 1.29 cubic feet with a -3db at 34.6Hz.

For the 16 ohm woofers in pairs the optimal sealed is 2.5 cubic feet with a -3db at 65.6Hz. Optimal ported is 3.2 cubic feet with a -3db at 31.5Hz.



Great! And I take it there's no problem mating the 8ohm with a Neo3 tweet.

Danny Richie

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #47 on: 30 Oct 2012, 06:23 pm »

Great! And I take it there's no problem mating the 8ohm with a Neo3 tweet.

There wouldn't be any problem in doing that.

Hank

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #48 on: 30 Oct 2012, 06:45 pm »
Hey, Danny, a few bucks is a 'few bucks'. 
I know about the neodymium situation.  BUT, relief is in site:  New mines, and the China economy slowdown. This from 9/20 Star.com:
"In August, China announced new export quotas on rare earth elements (REE), which increased the yearly figure by 2.7 percent."

"This is the first time in five years that the REE quota has increased and is the highest in three years, which is seen as a slight negative as excess supply would put pressure on prices," analyst Carolyn Dennis of Toronto-based Dundee Capital Markets said in a note to clients.
NEW MINES
The spike in prices prompted a flurry of new mining projects and the two most advanced are due to come on stream this year, boosting global supplies of rare earths.

Molycorp, the biggest rare earth producer outside China, has reopened the Mountain Pass mine in California and is due to boost output to 19,050 tonnes a year in the fourth quarter from 3,516 tonnes last year.

Lynas is also due to fire up an $800 million rare earths plant in Malaysia as early as October after receiving a temporary operating licence. The plant would supply about 11,000 tonnes in its first year, eventually rising to 22,000 tonnes."


Ed VB

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #49 on: 1 Nov 2012, 01:28 am »
Subs have a lot of moving forces. Especially a large diameter sub like this one that is on carpet and is not using floor spikes. The amount of vibration that is transmitted into whatever is setting on the subs is considerable. And if that is one of the Rythmik cabinets then it is 3/4" thick with a cross brace. It is not a real solid cabinet and there are additional panel resonances from the box itself.

All of that force and resonances being transmitted into the mains speakers is not good. They really should be separated.

With the main speakers in their own box and away from the subs there should be a considerable amount of increased clarity. Imaging will also improve.

Hi Danny

Just a few last questions.

My sub cabinets do have spikes that go to the subfloor.

My cabinets are 3/4" Baltic Birch with a 1/2" thick of MDF glued on top.

The custom mount I was talking about would have isolation dampers installed to prevent the vibration going to the speakers above the subs.

Was this the main reason for moving the subs and do you feel Isolation dampers would not work?

With these factors and having three AV2's for the side and rear surrounds that I want to keep  What will blend and sound the best overall.

Two N3's and a N3s or the  X-Statik & X-Voce  Both will have the Sonicap upgrade.

Last question

What difference in sound  compared to the AV-2's that also have the Sonicaps and Bypass caps installed ? I mean is it night or day or is it more subtle?

I just do not want to go to the expense and find out there is very little difference in what I have now.

I wish I had more alternatives but I only have so much room and the subs seem to have the best response with the least peaks and valleys from where I am sitting now. The are crossed at 80 Hz at this time. I do a lot of HT so the this does not bottom the woofers on some peaks.
I also have time if needed to wait for the X-Pro but you know better than I if it will work for this arrangement.

Thanks for being patient with me. I have the budget for any of the three so this will be the deciding factor.

Trismos

Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #50 on: 1 Nov 2012, 11:56 am »


The custom mount I was talking about would have isolation dampers installed to prevent the vibration going to the speakers above the subs.

Was this the main reason for moving the subs and do you feel Isolation dampers would not work?



All this concern over vibration doesn't seem to matter for, say, the V-1

Danny Richie

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #51 on: 1 Nov 2012, 03:02 pm »
Isolation devices like floor spikes or spikes for the A/V-2's to sit on work great, but my concern for the A/V-2's are that they are still sitting on the top panel of a sub woofer. So even if you isolate the weight of the A/V-2 to only four spikes points, they are still sitting on a large panel that will likely have some resonance.

You may have done a great job of minimizing the effect and it may sound fine to you. I don't know. Experimenting with then sitting just to the inside of the subs on some heavy stands will tell you if there really is or is not an problem.

Quote
Two N3's and a N3s or the  X-Statik & X-Voce  Both will have the Sonicap upgrade.

You can't go wrong with either.

The tweeter used in the N series kits have an edge in resolution, but the open baffle designs have an edge in mid-range transparency. N3's play lower and will allow you to lower the crossover point to 35 or 40Hz. The X-Statik's were designed to be used with subs and a crossover point in the 50 to 55Hz range.

Note also that all open baffle speakers need to be at least 3 feet out from the wall and more is better.

Quote
What difference in sound  compared to the AV-2's that also have the Sonicaps and Bypass caps installed ? I mean is it night or day or is it more subtle?

Both are steps up in the area's mentioned above. Both have better tweeters and you will get cleaner highs in both of them.

All this concern over vibration doesn't seem to matter for, say, the V-1

The V-1 has no enclosure like his sealed sub does. It is an open baffle design. Even still, spiking it to the floor or not makes a notable difference.

Ed VB

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #52 on: 3 Nov 2012, 03:23 pm »
Well I removed the AV-2's from the subs and placed them back on the stands I made when I built the speakers. I listened to the same pieces that I had listened to before and I could not believe the difference. Before I used the 1/4" rods the anchor the AV-2's to subs as I tried Spikes but the AV-2's would rattle on the spikes during some low passages so I firmly anchored them with the 1/4" bolts with brass tubing to make it look finished.

Danny! you were right and I just cannot believe what that little difference makes.

After this discussion I am planning on a set of X-Statik's with upgraded crossover and a X-voce with the same upgraded crossover. They will be in the same location as the AV-2's in the picture below but the left speaker will be move forward so the front baffle will be 3' from the wall at its closest point.

What do you think?




Danny Richie

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #53 on: 3 Nov 2012, 03:41 pm »
Sounds like a good plan.  :thumb:

persisting1

Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #54 on: 3 Nov 2012, 09:45 pm »
Quote
I am planning on a set of X-Statik's with upgraded crossover and a X-voce with the same upgraded crossover.

If you have the room, you will not be disappointing. One of my favorite speakers for the money. Congrats  :thumb:

Ed VB

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #55 on: 15 Nov 2012, 12:34 am »
Danny

Can your new 16mm driver be used in a MTM configuration both sealed for a center channel and TM for a tower using the Neo3 for the tweeter?

Do you have any plans for that in the near future?

Do you think in this arrangement it might sound better and have a higher SPL than the N3 you have now?

How much larger would the enclosures need to be?

I am looking at all the possibilitys before pulling the trigger. Thanks  :)

« Last Edit: 15 Nov 2012, 09:04 pm by Ed VB »

Danny Richie

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #56 on: 15 Nov 2012, 09:18 pm »
Quote
Can your new 16mm driver be used in a MTM configuration both sealed for a center channel and TM for a tower using the Neo3 for the tweeter?

That center channel box would be too huge for a pair of the 16 ohmers in sealed box. It would have to be about 2.4 cubic feet.

Quote
Do you have any plans for that in the near future?

No. I already have really good woofers to use with the Neo 3 tweeter.

Quote
Do you think in this arrangement it might sound better and have a higher SPL than the N3 you have now?

SPL levels would be about the same. Sound better, maybe, maybe not. It would have to be a lot bigger though. That wouldn't sell too well.

Quote
How much larger would the enclosures need to be?

A pair of the 16 ohm woofer in a optimal ported box would be about 3.2 cubic feet.

I think I will stick to the applications that they were designed for in open baffles.

The 8 ohm version has a slightly lower Qts and will work well in a small ported tower ported or sealed box design.

Ed VB

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #57 on: 15 Nov 2012, 10:52 pm »
Thanks Danny

For me it is a big decision as these probably will be the last pair I make.

I really appreciate tell me the difference's between the X-Statik & X-voce combo or the N3 & N3s combo.

I think the new X series will be great but as you explained might not be for me needing a center channel that these were not designed for.

It still is a tough decision not be able to hear either one but these are the main advantages between the two.

X-Statik = More open and spacious midrange but not quite as smooth and detailed at the high end.

N3 = Solid midrange and more natural and detailed high end.

My hearing probably only goes up to 12-13K but the main problem with the AV-2's was missing the detail and smoothness that I heard on speakers like the B&W 802 and 805 with their Diamond tweeter.

When listening to music I did not hear the details I heard on the B&W I listened to and I could listen to many songs without wanting to turn it off.

Your gracious offer on the X-statik parts was also in the mix but needing to put the NoRez in, it just was easier just to build the cabinet.

Having said all that it seems that building the N3 and N3S with Sonicaps, Sonicap Platinum Bypass on the tweeter circuit, Sonicap Gen II for the woofer circuit, Stock wiring and stock Electra tube connectors will overall sound a little better than the X-Statik with upgrades. Both will blend well with my subs so that was not an issue.

Can you add anything to my conclusion?
« Last Edit: 16 Nov 2012, 12:54 am by Ed VB »

Danny Richie

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #58 on: 15 Nov 2012, 11:06 pm »
Quote
My hearing probably only goes up to 15K but the main problem with the AV-2's was missing the detail and smoothness that I heard on speakers like the B&W 802 and 805 with their Diamond tweeter.

When listening to music I did not hear the details I heard on the B&W I listened to and I could listen to many songs without wanting to turn it off.

Actually the A/V-2's that you have with Sonicaps will easily be smoother and have more detail in the top end than any of the B&W products. The capacitors used in the B&W speakers alone will smear detail levels. And the brightness of the metal dome is often quite fatiguing and hard to listen to. Some may even have an elevated or tipped up top end response.

Ed VB

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Re: New drivers are here.
« Reply #59 on: 16 Nov 2012, 12:17 am »
Thanks for all your help Danny. I have made my final decision. Be calling you soon.
« Last Edit: 16 Nov 2012, 01:47 am by Ed VB »