[Rclark]

Pretty cool 

In fact, that's the future. The cool thing is they aren't overcharging. It makes trying this very appealing, without waiting out a 3.0, etc, which are inevitable.

 Just as the Ncore this year signalled class d amps with switching power supplies that can run with the big hogs, I mean big dogs, this here is a glimpse into the future as well, some day this stuff will be dirt cheap. Bruno Putzeys talked about a coming commoditization of audio. We are at a historical crossroads.

[medium jim]

Pretty cool 

In fact, that's the future. The cool thing is they aren't overcharging. It makes trying this very appealing, without waiting out a 3.0, etc, which are inevitable.

 Just as the Ncore this year signalled class d amps with switching power supplies that can run with the big hogs, I mean big dogs, this here is a glimpse into the future as well, some day this stuff will be dirt cheap. Bruno Putzeys talked about a coming commoditization of audio. We are at a historical crossroads.

Wishful thinking, it will never be cheap and we are not at the crossroads, just at a time of more product to choose from.  The new generation of audiophilium may latch on to the new offerings, but the old school are too long in the tooth to change, right, wrong or indifferent.   People have been saying tubes will die, then analog, and so on...

It is nice that there is more choices for more types of audiophiles, but the regalilia of this or that serves no useful purpose other than to sport heated debates that deteriorate to personal conflicts. 

Jim

[Rclark]

We are at a historical crossroads.

[medium jim]

We are at a historical crossroads.

Maybe, maybe not...please explain the relevance of Ncores in the context of this thread?!  There is a circle dedicated to them where it is though.

Jim

[Rclark]

Well Jim, I would think it would be obvious. You no longer have to spend 30 or 40K to have top spec amps. Now you can spend 8K for big power and retail or 2K for diy, and compare to anything, anything, anything that has come before...

"I've had more than my fair share of amps in the system in the last few years and IMO none of them compare in terms of clarity and the sheer amount of musical information allowed through.

List of some in no particular order

Consonance 211 and 845 (SET TUBE)
Atma-Sphere M-60 (OTL Tube)
McIntosh MC275 (PP Tube)
Pass Labs XA30.5 (Class A SS)
Luxman M-600 (Class A SS)
Jolida Music Envoy (PP tube, 211 triodes)
Luxman SQ-38 integrated (PP tube)
nuforce ref 18 (class D)
Spectron Musician III mono's (class D)
ModWright KWA 150 mono's (class A/B ss)
Odyssey extreme mono's (class A/B ss)
Threshold SA50 (class A ss)
hot rodded Dynaco ST70 (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M156 mono's (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M88 integrated (pp tube)
R.E. Designs LNPA 150 (class A/B ss)
Audio Mirror 45W SET (tube SET)

A few others that I can't think of off hand. Yes, all in the same room with either my current speakers, GedLee Abbey, or the previous speakers, Meadowlark Blue Heron 2.

With or without the subs, these amps are in a class by themselves compared to any of the above. All of the above have strengths and weaknesses but for my tastes I'm keeping the little NC400's for the foreseeable future. Just my .02."


-MGALUSHA

now you can best those amps listed for 1500. Same with this new device Dual Core (duh?), what was once exclusive is getting cheaper.

[medium jim]

Rclark:

Again, this is the wrong circle, wrong thread for what you are discussing.  This circle is about bass and this thread about room correction.

Please stay on topic.

Jim

[Rclark]

I was on topic. You asked me a question. I answered.

[medium jim]

Wrong, I asked how your discussion of Ncores applied to this thread, which you didn't answer.

Jim

[Rclark]

Oh, what I meant was technology like amps and source rigs are going to get more advanced, smaller, and cheaper.

[JohnR]

Digital technology is advancing, of there that is no doubt. However, it has been doing it for a long time. The appeal of a fully-automated solution is undoubtedly there, I'd like to read more on it when I get a chance.

[sts9fan]

RClark I think you are at a crossroads.

MiniDSP = $160 shipped
Calibrated mic, cables and pre = $250

Products built on the euro have a hard time competing.

[Rclark]

Don't forget the soundcard!

You're at half the cost. For a "you're on your own" solution.

[sts9fan]

On your own? So? It's fun. It's DIY right?
My price included sound card. DSPeaker is a bit over priced.

[Rclark]

Does MiniDSP have an integrated preamp and dac?

[JohnR]

MiniDSP is actually a collection of products. But I think the target market is quite different. To each their own etc.

[wisnon]

RClark I think you are at a crossroads.

MiniDSP = $160 shipped
Calibrated mic, cables and pre = $250

Products built on the euro have a hard time competing.

The Euro is near record lows against the dollar. The advantage of the DSPeaker is the anti-mode algorithm which is apparently more advanced than the competition (there is more going on than meets the eye). This is why it keeps winning review awards. Review excepts below:  http://www.avforums.com/reviews/DSpeaker-Anti-Mode-8033-Dual-Core-review_361/Review.html

The digital signal processing utilized is a proprietary technology of parent company VLSI, who manufacture their own chip sets – Not a capability open to most manufacturers. The product for review here, is the most advanced application of their in-house capability to date and it goes a lot further than sub bass equalization. To give it it’s full title, the DSpeaker Anti-mode 2.0 Dual Core, is an asynchronous reclocking USB digital to analogue converter, with DSP room equalisation. With USB, S/PDIF optical and analogue inputs, plus a volume control, it’s also more than capable as acting as a fully fledged, remote control pre-amp too, but even that lofty list sells the Dual Core’s capabilities a bit short.

The internal architecture of the Dual Core centers around the VLSI parent company's VS8053 IceDragon chip, which handles analogue in/outputs, ADC/DAC conversion and all DSP processing on one chip. A separate VS1000 handles the GUI and the USB interface. All processing is 40bit with 6.144mHz oversampling on the ADC and DAC. The Antimode Room EQ uses a combination of Finite and Infinte Impulse Response filters, the exact number and implimentation of which, DSpeaker stays tight lipped about. This is, after all, their core technolgy. A point worth noting is that the VS8053 can only handle license free digital codecs, which means WAV (PCM & IMA ADPCM), Flac and Ogg Vorbis.

But that's not all. A flat in room repsonse is good, but one that is flat AND short is better. Short? As alluded to, a resonance is when your room starts to ring at certain frequencies. Like a bell or a glass (which is intentionally resonant) the note continues on after the initial stimulous and so does a modal peak in your room's repsonse. The subwoofer might have stopped, but the room hasn't. Your ear is actually quite poor at distinguishing a loud note from a sustained one, especially when it's mixed in with everything else that is going on in a movie soundtrack and music. In either case, additional sustain contributes to a lack of drive to your musical bass and blurs detail in LFE sound effects, to name but two examples. The best EQ devices are designed not only to measure the amplitude of your response, but it's duration and account for both. The 3D graphs (commonly known as waterfalls) below show that the Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core is firmly in the camp of the best EQ devices I've come ever across.

And the 'after' waterfall to the right exemplifies why the Dual Core is so good. It's seen the obvious peak and cut it. It's seen the extended decay of the dip and not chosen to boost. Boosting a dip isn't generally recommended, because you're effectively pouring amplifier power and driver travel into a sonic black hole, but that is a rule of thumb. It can be done in moderation and the Anti-Mode allows it, although you can also set the limit of how much is allowed. If you flick back and forth between the before/after graphs, there is a hint of boost between 20-25Hz to bring the response gently into line. Remember too, that this result is just the result of the entirely PC free, automated EQ of the Anti-Mode. For music in my room, that's job done - walk away.

Finally, I tried the Anti-Mode Dual Core as a straight DSP processor between a transport and DAC. Essentially, the Dual Core is just applying EQ and passing the resultant signal straight on. This is clearly a happy position for the Dual Core as it's passing around a relatively robust digital data stream, without any analogue conversions and is entirely transparent in it's operation. The manifest qualities of the partnering components were allowed to shine, but the expected improvements in bass quality and imaging were immediately obvious. The tightening of bass takes nothing from music and delivers propulsion and a pitch definition to the bottom end, you'd be lucky to achieve in any normal room. It was in this system, that the homogenising of the stereo image was most apparent and indeed, the most impressive difference. You see, the system was relatively modest, but well matched.

[sts9fan]

I stand corrected

[Rclark]

"Corrected" nice pun. heh.

Another neat feature, not sure if MiniDSP with REW can do this, but this device does full correction at sub frequencies as mono, and then as it moves up the frequency scale into the ranges produced by the speakers, it begins correcting in stereo, and then also, as it approaches 500 hz tapers off the amount off correction until there is none.

[wisnon]

"Corrected" nice pun. heh.

Another neat feature, not sure if MiniDSP with REW can do this, but this device does full correction at sub frequencies as mono, and then as it moves up the frequency scale into the ranges produced by the speakers, it begins correcting in stereo, and then also, as it approaches 500 hz tapers off the amount off correction until there is none.

I spoke to the lead desgners a few weeks back and though I cant pretend to get all he said. Suffice to say he thinks the algorythm is the key. It is the most advanced and it does more than what meets the eye (ear). Something akin to artificial intelligence tech, where it tests and restests, learning more at each iteration.

[JohnR]

Another neat feature, not sure if MiniDSP with REW can do this, but this device does full correction at sub frequencies as mono, and then as it moves up the frequency scale into the ranges produced by the speakers, it begins correcting in stereo

Well, that's normally how you apply EQ.