JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)

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AphileEarlyAdopter

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #40 on: 6 Jul 2004, 12:20 am »
TheChairGuy,
Fantastic experiments with the JVC. I only wish the JVC had a detachable power cord. There's so much improvement that can be had with a power cord on these cheap digital amps (probably with underpowered powersupplies). Also, I would be interested in hearing how the digital input sounds with CD on this receiver.
To me, digital input is the most interesting twist in a digital amplifier. There is so much savings that can be had in eliminating a DAC and a I/C.
I have the Panny XR50 biamped with direct digital imput. I use an Empirical Audio Magnum (not current) power cord. The sound is absolutely fantastic.
I also use Mapleshade Silclear, Walker Vivid and Herbies Grungebuster.

kfonda

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #41 on: 6 Jul 2004, 12:28 am »
Good Lord--it sounds like you Folks use way more exotic/esoteric
equipment then I do :oops:

I'm just going to hook up the JVC to my DirecTivo via optical, my Panny RP-82 DVD player via coaxial, my Yamaha CD changer via analog (all cables are AR Pro) and my Polk speakers all around (using Home Depot 12 gauge) and let her rip!

I guess I'll be the one giving the Joe 6-pack review around here :lol:

Quote
Yesterday, at about 120 hours, this rig took a decided turn into hi-fi. My wife even commented how 'clear' everything was. It was, simply, the most enjoyable listening session I've had in my own home. Ever.


TheChairGuy--I am VERY encouraged by these words--I can't wait until mine arrives!:mrgreen:

TheChairGuy

JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #42 on: 6 Jul 2004, 12:50 am »
Quote from: AphileEarlyAdopter
TheChairGuy,
Fantastic experiments with the JVC. I only wish the JVC had a detachable power cord. There's so much improvement that can be had with a power cord on these cheap digital amps (probably with underpowered powersupplies). Also, I would be interested in hearing how the digital input sounds with CD on this receiver.
To me, digital input is the most interesting twist in a digital amplifier. There is so much savings that can be had in eliminating a DAC and a I/C.
I have the Panny XR50 biamped with  ...


AEA,

Digital thru-put on this model may not be as good as I am currently enjoying it (tho I need to try it to be sure).  My transport was modded by Empirical Audio, but NOT the standard coax digital outs...the special MSB RJ45 outs were (the upsampler is in my transport, not DAC, and terminates in this weird connection from MSB).

So, it's a matter of connecting from inferior digital outs in my transport to the digital ins on the JVC versus the superior MSB digital outs on my transport, to my fully modded DAC, on the the inferior analog ins on the JVC. Intersting comparo that will be, tho.

My guess (and only that right now) is that the way I have it is optimized currently, but I'm game to try digital thru-puts once this thing breaks in.

kfonda, Joe 6pack reviews needed!  Anything but my voice needed for better understanding of the JVC's technology , and limitations.  I still think you will be impressed...if your previous was a SS Pioneer receiver.

Dmason

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #43 on: 6 Jul 2004, 01:16 am »
6 pack reviews needed. I for one, long for the day when I could just plug things into one box, and never need to touch anything but the remote. Or a ball cap with a neural transducing propellor on top to control all programs and parameters. :lol:

I have heard several of these newer, quite cheap DVD players, the Toshiba 3960, the Panasonic DV-85, Pioneer DV545, and I believe the DAC Wars to be over. With high quality, low cost chips by BB and others, elegant and sophisticated low jitter implementation by "sharp minds," these players absolutely trounce the biggies of yesteryear, no question. It may be that that circuitry exists within the JVC, whose own DVD players are getting great write-ups, and then the short signal path nirvana can be ours. My own guess is that the digital IN route may well prove to be pretty damn good. Is it a true digital amp? I think not. I suspect it is dangerously similar to Tripath. But it could provide a direct digital signal into the digital feedback aspect of the amp circuitry.

I believe this amp to be what is in store for the future. If you own boat anchor amplifiers, I suggest you list them on audiogon today.

kfonda

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #44 on: 6 Jul 2004, 01:31 am »
Quote
Is it a true digital amp? I think not. I suspect it is dangerously similar to Tripath. But it could provide a direct digital signal into the digital feedback aspect of the amp circuitry.


Whoa--so this is NOT a TRUE digital amp???? I relize it says "hybrid" but I was seriously wanting a TRUE ALL DIGITAL receiver--I saw this as an alternative to the Panasonics. I realize it uses an analog feedback loop along with a digital feedback loop to get rid of upper frequency harshness but I thought that was just marketing-speak for why these receivers sound the way they do, but I was under the impression this receiver is all digital--especially when utilizing the digital inputs. So this receiver is NOT like the Pannys? Someone please elaborate for me--thanks.  :o

Dmason

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #45 on: 6 Jul 2004, 02:00 am »
My humble guess, tha's all. Relax!! It is looking like a FANTASTIC alternative to the Panasonic. The rest is semantics, really, derivation is derivative......it is the sound that matters.

No one knows for sure, and JVC isn't talking. I do know that JVC has been a heavyweight customer of Tripath for several years, and I cannot believe that there hasn't been some sort of cross-fertilization. Having said that, it has for years been Japan's industrial destiny to take Western designs and improve them radically. Xerox, BMW, are two good ones...I for one cannot wait to get mine.

TheChairGuy

JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #46 on: 6 Jul 2004, 04:54 am »
Yep kfonda, hang tight...it sounds good even if the circuitry was made of sheep dung.  :lol:   The end result matters...I can't imagine that you won't think it's worth at least $179.00.  It may not be your ticket to total pleasure, but you will be pleased with the value (as long as it works outta' the box).

You may have seen this already, but this from JVC Australia (US is weirdly quiet about anything regarding the design):
================================

The RX-ES1SL, a comprehensive AV control centre, houses all five amps for 5.1-channel surround with the high power of 100W x 5. Its remarkable feature is the JVC-developed Hybrid Feedback Digital Amplifiers. The process of digital amplification combines high efficiency and reduced power dissipation through heat loss, so it requires a smaller transformer and power supply. As a result, it can be designed compact in size and lightweight.

But digital amps in conventional designs are not free from drawbacks. Analogue-digital conversion of signals generates harmful digital noise, while fluctuations in the power-supply voltages and power-supply noise can also cause analogue noise. The JVC Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp provides a unique solution for the problem, which uses two feedback systems. First, the digital feedback significantly improves the precision with which the PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) signals are generated. Second, the analogue feedback ensures the waveform of the analogue signal at output is identical to that at input.

The combination of the two feedbacks provides dual benefits as follows:
First, it significantly reduces distortion and noise. The total harmonic distortion of the Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp is as low as one tenth that of conventional designs. Signal-to-noise ratio is also improved, ensuring smooth, noiseless sound even at low volumes.

The Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp also ensures high speaker drivability. With conventional amps, the output levels are not stable because they are affected by the frequency response of the speaker impedance. This leads to insufficient bass and less realistic sound fields. With sufficient feedback from speaker terminals, JVC’s Hybrid Feedback Digital Amp realises an extremely high damping factor of approx. 500 at 1kHz, whereas it’s less than 100 with amps incorporated in other same-class receivers. The result is stable output across the frequency range, which ensures substantial bass and optimum sound fields.
=================
It got a little shrill (top end) tonite (hour 168)..first time.  I tend to notice 'shrillness' issues easily, so I know it is just break-in related.  We'll see what tomorrow brings...... :dance:

Horizons

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Re: WOW
« Reply #47 on: 6 Jul 2004, 04:15 pm »
Quote from: Dmason

I think I need to know about this "all channel stereo" feature.


Is this similar to the Panny "party mode" where you can use 4 channels to biamp or biwire your speakers and achieve more power?

Richard U

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #48 on: 6 Jul 2004, 05:26 pm »
Who has the ES1 in stock? Could not find it on Ebay.
Has anyone compares it to the Panny XR50?
I'm wondering how different the F10 is to the ES1 in sound quality. I know they are similar but I'm thinking about the difference between the XR25 and XR45 which is sustantial. Any thoughts?

Richard

TheChairGuy

JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #49 on: 6 Jul 2004, 08:29 pm »
Quote from: Richard U
Who has the ES1 in stock? Could not find it on Ebay.
Has anyone compares it to the Panny XR50?
I'm wondering how different the F10 is to the ES1 in sound quality. I know they are similar but I'm thinking about the difference between the XR25 and XR45 which is sustantial. Any thoughts?

Richard


I haven't compared to any of the Panny Tripath models.  Do a google search for JVC RX-ES1SL and you'll find a few for sale.  However, it looks like JVC dumped them in advance of the F10 coming, so some dealers have them at $299 and the few lucky opportunistic dump-ee dealers have them for 40% less.

You can call Samman's Electronics in Wayne, NJ (I don't have tel #, correspondence was all thru email and ebay) to see if he any more left.  When I bought mine, he had 16 available on ebay, a few days later I looked at his ebay ad and he had 15 ( :lol: ).  So, unless there has been a run on them the past 10 days or so, he should have a few left.

I worked with what I guess to be the owner, Sam.

UPDATE - sound about the same as yesterday, without the high frequency annoyance now.  Break-in is less substantial each day now, but still a moving 'target'.  I have some further reviews about the sound, but I'll reserve them another day or so as it better breaks in.  :rock:

TheChairGuy

JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #50 on: 8 Jul 2004, 04:44 am »
Well, I got about 220 hours on the RX-ES1SL now and don't notice any, or certainly any dramatic changes, the last 2 days now.  I think it's mostly burnt in now.

I tried to run my transport straight thru, bypassing the external DAC, into the digital inputs on the JVC...but I couldn't output sound.  Don't know if I have to change an setting on teh remote or front panel to output this way, or if the digi wire was loose, but my impression are all based on the Sony transport running to my MSB DAC and on into the JVC with a 0.5 mtr. Alpha-Core TQ-2. Tweeks as described earlier.

First off, I don't think I can ever go back to listening to solid state bass anymore.  It is nice and tight, taut and rockin' in the bass department I can hardly believe it (for $179.00 and 5 x 100w, mind you). Turn it up and it never looses control of the woofer....very interesting and my major peeve with all the amps I've owned.  No balls  :o .

The mids - voices and the like - are carried out nicely and without sibilance or grain.  I've heard better, but not in my listening room.  Words are very clear and lyrics are easier to follow than I remember them. I've heard better, but don't remember better conveyance of vocals until you get into amps, and systems, well above the JVC or my system's asking price. I mean, come on, I'm using an receiver and speaker that cost me, respectively, $179 ($299 list or so) and $425 ($780 list or so)..what did I expect?

As you move to the upper registers, the unit falls short of the best SS amps.  It's not spacious.  It doesn't do anything wrong, it's never harsh, it just doesn't 'rise' to the audiophile occasion.  They are sins of omission, not commission, and understandable for $179.00.  As I was duly warned by audioengr/Steve Nugent, you can't get an amp with great bass and great highs in the same package (I'm paraphrasing). But, JVC seems to be on to something with the hybrid feedback technique and it improving less-than-polished treble performance in most digi amps.

Aimee Mann and Till Tuesday is on rotation now, and it is the most enjoyable spin I've had with this disc.  It doesn't paste over anything here, I am so suspicious of any device that claim to make every CD sound enjoyable (not every CD IS good to begin with; I want to know that when I hear it, it almost feels like living a lie otherwise to me).  Whatever volume it's on, the bass is taut, her voice clear..it's just lacking that magic 'air' in the upper registers.  And, that's a big deal, but it pales when you know the fella' was $179.00.

Soundstage, of which I never noticed in my room (I thought maybe it was too live, or dead, or I was  :? ) exists now; just not in the way I've heard some spendy systems with SS or other digital amps.  But, it DOES create one - again, fairly remarkable for the price.

The highlight of this receiver is the amplification...it just doesn't give up when you need the juice. It doesn't do much else badly, just not up to the standards that many of us aspire to.  However, this is bone stock, may have some more breaking in to do, and some simple mods may turn this into quite a stunning bargain: low inductance power cord, better rca's, real binding posts.  Further internal mods may improve it further.

I would never, never in a million years, guess this was a $179 receiver...it sounds way more expensive than that.  It's probably a great surround/video receiver...it'll give you the dynamics you need, good center channel dialogue and an intuitively laid out remote control.

It is so good, for the price, that it begs comparison to better gear...after smoking my 5x or so  more pricey set-up before it.  It is so good that cable swaps, tweeks, and speaker placement changes are easier to discern.  That's the mark of a better machine if anything is.

I was not enjoying the sound the past day or so.  I unplugged my sub amp (AudioSource AMP3) driving my NEAR BOOM3 sub and it was back to enjoyment.  I had previously found that addition of this sub in my room made listening more enjoyable, but the JVC was so much faster and tauter controlling my Vandy 1c's, that the subs wrecked the sound. That was very thought-provioking for me today.

Anyhow, not having heard the Panny 25, 50, 45, I think what you may have here is a bona-fide alternative to them for similar, or less, money and more heft/weight .  It's a great 2nd system and video receiver, it just will fall short of picky 2 channel requirements for nirvana bone stock.

Steve Nugent / Empirical Audio is working on somebodies Panny 45 right now and it will be interesting to hear his impressions after he is done to know what upgrade possibility is inherent in the JVC.

I have my DIYCable Exodus amp coming July 13 and this should prove an interesting comparison to the JVC.  I will miss the remote, a lot, tho.

Once the new amp is here, I'll probably crack this little fella' open and see what type of output chip we got in there...Tripath is my best guess.  :wink:

gary

JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #51 on: 8 Jul 2004, 08:20 pm »
Well, I just ordered the RXF10S for $280 and I'll post my impressions when it gets here. I'm not looking to use to in my 2-channel system, just for a small HT, but it'll still be interesting to see how it performs with my Ref 1's.

Gary

TheChairGuy

JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #52 on: 8 Jul 2004, 08:37 pm »
Gary,

Great.  FYI - I tried to use the JVC with the R103 Dakiom's and they sounded worse.  It definitely picked up the 'kaboom' factor, but they took on some grainyness and edge that wasn't there without them.  It's the same thing I foudn with the R103 (the RCA ones) on all my equipment.  I think Mr. Kim is onto to something with these, but he may be using cheap parts to execute it and it is clear that they degrade on good equipment.

I tried the Dakiom's as this unit has negative feedback in it's design; many (most, all) other digi amps eschew it...I have heard.  Others more technically, you could enlighten me if that is incorrect, please.  :)  

The JVC is good enough that they are degraded by them.  The R103's improved the sound of my (then)  unmodded Sont DVP-S7700.  They seem to work on cheap stuff, not the better stuff...and the JVC proved it's in a different class than the modest asking price is.

I'm ramming 4 pr. 24ga (+14 ga) CAT6 cable in the small speaker spring clips, so I have no room to use the A103's on the RX-ES1SL...but I found them to work nearly all the time.  I guess cause they are not in the 'path' of the signal, merely paralelling it, they don't degrade, only improve it.

Ears

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #53 on: 10 Jul 2004, 06:11 pm »
I am comparing a rx 10 to a Pany 45 right now and the initial impression is the JVC does not sound like a digital direct receiver, much like the H/K DPR 2005, I beleive all digital receivers on the market to be hybrids whith large transformers [for there size] except the Panys or possibly the Kenwood 7100/8100 which I have on order that uses  the TI solution like the Panys do.
I also suspect that the Kenwoods are the same as the Panys but rated at 130 @6 ohm whith 10% distortion, whith the Pany rated whith better distortion levels at 100 @6ohm rating.
The only difference being the parts used most likely.

Anyway, the Pannys are lighter because they do not require a large heavy transformer, which has nothing to do whith build quality.

The Pany is precise sounding whith highly detailed upper mids and highs vs the JVC'S warmer sonics.
The JVC does seem to have a fuller bass than the Pany, but the Pany is better from the upper mids up.....a lot better imo whith precise detailed upper mids and highs.

I will let the JVC run for a week or so 24/7 and do another comparison.
I also noted that the JVC sounds distorted at higher listening levels out of the box.
I would describe its  mids as almost tubey sounding and its bass output to have more slam than the Pany 25 or 45 but not as fast.
I am going to also check the rx-10 for H/T this weekend....as soon as I get some smaller gauge cables for the front right/left that fit the cheesy spring clips.

As noted, these are just initial comparisons and not a final judgement of the two el cheapo digital wonders.

Ears

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #54 on: 10 Jul 2004, 06:18 pm »
I also wanted to mention that neither the dpr2005 or the JVC receiver will except an upsampled 192hz signal through the digital input and the Panys do.

Digital direct imo, means no processing or conversion to the binding posts no matter the digital signal that is applied.

I will bet money that the Kenwood using the TI direct digital tech will except a 192hz upsampled signal through a digital connection.

TheChairGuy

JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #55 on: 10 Jul 2004, 08:30 pm »
Way to go Ears!  Love to hear your thoughts on the two.

If you have an ERS cloth, lay it on top of the JVC and Panny...substative benefits were achieved using it on the JVC.  :)

Likewise, benefits on the new Exodus digi amp I got here now...these babies leak airborne interference.

kfonda

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #56 on: 11 Jul 2004, 06:59 pm »
Hi everybody.

I received the JVC RX-ES1SL on Friday and wanted to play around with it for a few days before I posted my impressions of this receiver.

I would like to talk about the Good, the Bad, the Ugly and the Strange. A little disclaimer first--I am not an audiophile, but have extensive knowledge of home theater equipment and Hi-Fi components. I have been listening to music on audio equipment for 30 years now--which all started when I was a kid and had an ALL tube integrated amp and tuner--courtesy of my father and a H.H.Scott system. I have also been involved with home theater for about 7 years now. Enough about me.

First, The strange:  The receiver actually vibrates--that's right--it vibrates--is it the power supply?  :o

Second, The Ugly:  MY EYES--OH MY GOD MY EYES!!!! There is a 5-inch strip in the front of the receiver that emits a hideous bright blue glow with little points of PINK light to indicate which source component is being used at the moment. PLEASE MAKE IT STOP. You can dim or turn off the light but then the display is also dimmed or turned off as well--I might have to paint over the strip.  :lol:

Third, The Bad:  The receiver gets EXTREMELY hot--hotter then any receiver I have owned in the past save one-a Sony. All of the heat generates from the back left corner of the unit, which is where the openings are ( back left top corner and back left on the side ) and that is also the heavy portion of the unit--that is where I'm sure the power supply is located. I have to agree with Ears on this one--this must be a hybrid--as is indicated on the front of the unit. It is just too heavy and just gets too hot to be a "purely digital" receiver. The receiver ways a TON for it's size--14 pounds doesn't sound like a lot but this thing is just DEAD WEIGHT when you pick it up--which is not really a bad thing. As far as distortion I must respectfully disagree with TheChairGuy--it distorts badly--but let me explain: the volume goes from 0-50 with 0 being no volume and 50 being max volume. Now, as TheChairGuy has correctly pointed out, the volume can be raised to a very high level with no audible distortion and it does not sound compressed at all BUT--I can actually hear a very loud hiss from 7 feet away ( distance from the speakers to my listening position ) when the volume is anywhere between 40-50, HOWEVER, the volume gets so loud so quickly I will NEVER listen to it as those volumes, and 40-50 is equivalent to MAX volume on a standard analog receiver--anything over 35 on this receiver is just way too loud for me so it's moot. This unit is also the biggest pain-in-the-ass to set up for home theater when setting it up manually as opposed to some of the "preset" options that are available.

Fourth, The Good: As ears has pointed out--it "sounds kind of tubey"--well to me it sounds quite a bit like a tube unit!!!! Having said what I've said above it sounds FANTASTIC right out of the box--I know that sounds crazy and I hope TheChairGuy, Dmason & Ears don't roll their eyes and think, "Jeez, I've been breaking this thing in for 2 weeks and it still sounds bad and this guy thinks it sounds great?" :oops: but to MY ears, in MY listening environment, with MY source components and MY software this thing sounds fantastic--very smooth, very liquid, absolutely effortless with TONS of dynamics and headroom! It has the best bass control I have ever heard--very restrained for 2-channel music listening yet LOTS of very controlled slam for home theater. It could definitely use more presence in the mid-range and sometimes the highs are a little strident--but no sibilance. The soundstage is fairly narrow and not that wide at all, and when I play a CD through my Yamaha CD changer via analog connections it has been very revealing but sounds very very good ( my Yamaha has some of the best DACs I have ever heard for the price I paid for the changer )but this is only after 2 days--it WILL get better. I have a feeling the amps themselves ARE digital but everything else might be somewhat conventional and the feedback system is very ingenious in my opinion. This is my opinion so far and this is coming from someone that was using a Pioneer 45TX with a MSRP of $1400--for $179 this is a bargain! To put this into perspective--I have a very modest system: DirecTivo satellite box w/ optical out, a Panasonic RP-82 DVD player via coaxial out, a Yamaha CD changer via analog out, Polk RTi4's all around, a JBL PB-12 subwoofer, AR Pro interconnects and Home Depot 12 gauge speaker wire. So there's my Joe 6-Pack review  :lol: As always--YMMV.


Take care!

Ears

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #57 on: 11 Jul 2004, 07:47 pm »
kfonda, it is not that I think the JVC (mine is the big brother or ,or slightly more expensive cousin,the rx-10 model) sounds bad, it is just not nearly as good as the Pany 45 from the upper mids up, which does some things that my previous 8k pre/pro/amp combo could not.

I also like the Pany 45 better than the bug plauged H/K dpr2005 which cost around 1700.00.

I also agree that 35-38 is max volume whithout obvious distortion.

Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else imo, so let it rip whith the good. the bad and the ugly.

I guess I got the tubey sounding part right :)

My post was just an out of the box opinion and I am reserving final judgement for at least a week of 24/7 use.

Dmason

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JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #58 on: 11 Jul 2004, 09:18 pm »
Well another pod has landed from that Sharp-minded MotherShip...

I now have an F-10 cooking happily away, and it is no more hot that I would expect it to be, in the back corner where I assume the heavy PSU sits, yes, telling us this baby has analogue output devices, a la Tripath.

Sonic signature with three or so days cooking is eeeeerily familiar...that...tubey midrange, those highs-which-need-to-break-in; I mentioned earlier that i would anticipate some sort of cross-fertilization with respect to JVC's research into digital amplification.

Looking at those teeny tiny "things" for speaker cable insertion I have to shake my head; Just another job around the house for me to do, but fortunately I have some of ABEX' NearSOTA OTA cable which went great with my other amps, so was an easy fit there. My goal is to try to separate the amplifier modules from the rest of this stuff and come up with a stripped down unit, free from all this noise generating circuitry. (Oh how I wish I could see what JVC would come up with sans market considerations.) I like what I hear so far. Keep the remarks coming, -especially the 6-Pak reviews, down there in the trenches! :mrgreen:

TheChairGuy

JVC RX-F10 (Tripath-based)
« Reply #59 on: 11 Jul 2004, 10:17 pm »
Hey guys,

Let it run in for 7-10 days....things do change, mostly for the better, but not every minute.

I don't 'fondle' my equipment much, but indeed it is quite hot in the left rear area....where the vent holes are.  I have to embrace my equipment more regularly I think  :wink:

kfonda, let it burn in another few hours, it will get worse; alternating with better, then worse again.  In 225 hours you'll have your opinion of it.

I still think this, and maybe all the digital stuff coming, is a far away better deal than the $200-300 receivers that preceeded them.

Anyhow, cheers all  :)