[TheChairGuy]

TeeHee, I got 'ripped off' at $179.00...now there's a guy on ebay at $159.99 for the JVC RX-ES1SL:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39795&item=5706065220&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Or maybe you can get it for less if you win the bid.  

JVC must've really dumped these babies in advance of the F10 coming in.

The ES1 has only 5.1 processing, the F10 has 7.1...for the majority of users that may be important.  For us 2 channel guys, who cares, its more fluff.  There may be other differences...but the biggest difference I see is the F10 ain't priced like a throwaway.  

I don't know about you, but I think a lot harder about US$300 -odd then less then $200.  Then again, as Peter Thomsen/AV-Reality has tersely pointed out, I must be one of the cheap-SOB's that frequent AudioCircle.  

[Dmason]

Peter Thomsen's terse explanation doesn't qualify to explain much of what is going on with the AC members interested in digital amplification. I am qualified to explain alot of Thomsen's terseness tho'      

I think with the $ I am saving on my Value Components I just might order from that other Danish company, LC Audio, some chip-amps to try against the JVC.

[TheChairGuy]

Dmason,

I have an Exodus 2.2se, from DIYCable.com (using the LC Audio chips) on order, too. Check that one out...Kevin is waiting for new clock synch modules to arrive from Denmark; then he starts shipping to a few of us he's built for already.

If the Exodus blows the JVC away (probable), I can always start a killer/cheap A/V setup in the bedroom.  

Or replace my 20 year old Onkyo in my Living room setup.

We're living in good times....despite all the crap we read.  

[Dmason]

The JVC is for curiosity. --Where things are going. How much for how little.

The LC chip amp would be thrown in the ring against the Carver Pro ZR1000 Black Mambo. For a long time I have felt that there is just too much going on inside the ZR, corrupting the sonics. Since the little SI and Powerwaves have come along, I noticed that the highs smooth out, the less implementation....I have hoped for something like a finalized LC "working solution" to come along.

I am beginning to hear good things about these configurations, including the newer ICE chips; What I like most is the minimalist implementation. This makes ALOT of sense, based I what I have experienced. Less = More. Now we just need Kevin to do something about those prices.     Products like that are about to put the tin hat on it for the boat anchor boys.

[TheChairGuy]

Well, okay, the JVC RX-ES1SL came in today.

Unknown to me beforehand, the ebay retailer is Samman's Electronics in Wayne, NJ.  They have been there a long time, many years, and unless under vastly different management this is a good sign. The box was double boxed at Samman's...a nice touch for $179.00 receiver.

It is the exact same receiver I saw at Costco for $199.00 several weeks ago.  It is a Hybrid Feeback Digital Amplifier...says so right on the front.  There is no indication of it anywhere on the box, however. Strange perhaps, but that's how it is.

The unit's GROSS weight is 18.8 lbs.  Says that clearly enough.

Outta' the box, plugged into the BPT-2 Ultra (captive cord here) and plugged the front end in.  First listened to AM, FM - everything checked out.

First observation of the amp and preamp sections with the analog inputs from my DAC - bloody awful.  Dmason, I don't know what you heard at Good Guys, but I doubt it was 'fresh' out of the box.  Surely, it must have had some time to run in.  Bleech - awful.

It does play loud, tho, and it DOESN'T sound worse as you turn it up...something every cheap SS amp here has done.  So, I'm moderately hopeful for the future on this

As we all have pretty much deduced that this is a Tripath chip inside, or at least Class D output, we will give it plenty of burn in time to fully judge.

I have never had a remote volume control before in hand (except for my TV) and I must say it is very handy to have here in my Office/Listening Room.  Phone rings, mute or lower the volume.

Niiice  

[Dmason]

"Bloody awful." Wait,,,, Something must be wrong here. Digital amps sound best right out of the box. NOT!!!  It reminds me of how deflated I feel every time I plug one o' these things in fresh. Let's face it: digital amps sound soooo bad outta the box, you almost dont want to continue.

Leave it on full time, with the tuner going, just ignore it, whatever, it SHOULD sound better over time, after all it's a digital amp, right?  

Yeah, the one in GG was likely going for four months when I heard it, so hang in there. My expectations that this amp does serious justice to the Vandys are high...

[TheChairGuy]

D,

It's irritating on, so I'll burn it in silently (on FM), I think.

There is something about it that is slightly appealling tho, I hope it continues to shine thru.

I'm listening to Brahm's Violin Concerto right now, and I don't remember hearing the violings with this much fullness and presence in here. Piano sounds decent, too.  They both have midrange-y body to them.

They sound the same at any volume level.  Overall, awful, but no amp here has done THAT before.  Of course, every amp here has been underwhelming.  I have heard few 'great' amps in my life, but quite a few poor ones...and this ain't one of those.

I'm talking power only at this point, ability to drive and control things.  It's strangely competent at that, already.  But, somehow, it's not yet music.

Okay, let's roll them a bit onward.  

[TheChairGuy]

Well, the JVC at 62 hours burn in still sucks.  But, sucks less.

It is just fleshing out by the hour.  I am particularly struck by the taughness of snares, bass, kickdrum (all things ill defined by previous amplification here).  It's still tight, rigid and none-too-pleasing sounding right now, but you just KNOW (after breaking in other stuff over the years) that there is more to go.

I won't say the sound is promising yet, as there is little t base on yet, but as TriPath and Class D gear takes forever and a day to break in, I'm waiting (sometimes impatiently).

I love remote volume (and tuning - whoo hoo); I never thought 41 and I would be an old fart that wouldn't want to get up to turn a dial...but there you  go, I love the convenience.  I use a 20 year old 2 channel Onkyo in my modest video system - so I get up all the time for that, to.  

My wife says I could stand to gain a little weight (I LOSE weight each decade since my 20's - quite the anti-thesis of most).

One thing that strikes me; I turn this fella' up a bit every so often, and it sounds no worse soft or loud (that is to say, right now, awful...but no WORSE).  The other amps here (all well broken in during ownership) all sounded worse when turned up louder.  

This Tripath stuff is very appealling for that reason alone.

Tripath good times come to Car Audio now (other than the Blau amps discussed elsewhere), to, I just saw in my Crutchfield catalog:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-vSsYJ7DFYEz/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?a=&s=0&cc=01&g=62700&id=detailed_info&i=133C9800

Might be time to upgrade that SAAB factory jobber.

...and the beat shall go on    [/url]

[cjr888]

Just received an email from J&R -- looks like the F10 is in stock now.

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product_Id=3978103&JRSource=stockalert.JVC+RXF10S

[TheChairGuy]

Visually, the F10 looks the same as the ES1....except the headphone jack moved a bit to the left.

The bigest diff I can see is that it's 6.1, ES1 is only5.1.  Enjoy all..I got Andrea Boccelli crooning in the (TriPath'ed) background...and he has sounded worse in the past...for more $$$.

[kfonda]

Hi TheChairGuy,

I wanted to ask you even though you think the sound "sucks" right now--how would it sound to the UNTRAINED ear--you know,someone who has no other digital receiver to compare it to? How does the sound compare to an entry level or comparably priced analog receiver? Does it have enough power for a 5.1 DD or DTS setup? I'd really appreciate your help--thanks

[TheChairGuy]

Hi TheChairGuy,

I wanted to ask you even though you think the sound "sucks" right now--how would it sound to the UNTRAINED ear--you know,someone who has no other digital receiver to compare it to? How does the sound compare to an entry level or comparably priced analog receiver? Does it have enough power for a 5.1 DD or DTS setup? I'd really appreciate your help--thanks

kfonda,

Power is not the issue here with the JVC (or any other 100w digital amps, I understand), it's refinement.  It drives my Vandersteen's like a crossover doesn't even exist.  It sounds no worse turned up, than at lower levels...simply a revelation for me.  Alas, I have it only working in stereo, in 3,4,5 channel modes (also selectable room sizes) the JVC adds delay to the rears....so for a lot of reasons I can't directly comment on it's 5.1 abilities.

I was at 80 hours yesterday. and things are indeed opening up a bit.  I played 'Gladiator' soundtrack, something that has tore every other amp up, and it handled it with aplomb. Incidentally, it doesn't suck anymore, it's simply mid-fi...with a lot of power for the money.

So, the problem ain't power, it's finesse.  Most instruments still sound a little veiled and not quite real.  Interestingly, I don't find the high end to be shrill, clipped or any descriptives typical of digital amps....the feedback circuitry may have indeed improved that on this model....as JVC claims.

At $179.00, I am not sure you could do MUCH better - digital or analog.  I find surround sound set-ups to be an artifical listening experience for me, but getting tremendous dynamics from DVD is essential.  And dynamics this little guy can do, and do well. It's nice a slim - an advantage I think in a world with huge TV's, a cable box, VCR, and DVD already beside it.

The sound, out of the box is quite different that I am accustomed to, but I THINK this thing is still breaking in. Folks have cautioned me that digital amps take hundreds of hours to flesh out...so I am hopeful.  

Hope that helps.

[kfonda]

Thanks TheChairGuy for taking the time to answer my questions.

Well I just ordered one myself from the same ebayer (Sammans). I'll post my impressions of the receiver as well--it's always helpful to get more then one perspective on a piece of equipment. While I doubt I'm what people might consider an audiophile or have the trained ears I have been in this hobby for about 30 years--listening to music that is. I've had the home theater bug for about 7 years now and I've owned a TON of audio equipment over the years in terms of different receivers and speakers, so I will have a LOT of equipment to compare the digital receiver to. I just sold my Pioneer Elite 45TX, and thought I would see what all the rage is regarding these digital receivers.

On a side note--can someone for God's sake tell me why so many(not all) of these digital receivers DO NOT have a digital input for a CD player--they either just have an analog input for the CD which is strange or have no input at all--the JVC is a perfect example of this--how strange!

Until then--take care!    

[TheChairGuy]

Thanks TheChairGuy for taking the time to answer my questions.

Well I just ordered one myself from the same ebayer (Sammans). I'll post my impressions of the receiver as well--it's always helpful to get more then one perspective on a piece of equipment. While I doubt I'm what people might consider an audiophile or have the trained ears I have been in this hobby for about 30 years--listening to music that is. I've had the home theater bug for about 7 years now and I've owned a TON of audio equipment over ...

Great Kfonda, on the purchase  - I was beginning to wonder if this Topic was becoming a private one for only Dmason and myself.  Join in, all!

Samman's will do you right - they are very communicative and pack it quite well.

The JVC is so low key on info, you'd think that it didn't have a lot of things...but it does, in fact, have a digital input (marked 'Digital 1 - DVD').  I have not tried it, but it is there.  I thought the same thing, too, before buying it as I would like to try to all-digital-domain-up-to-the-speakers schpeil everyone says is the most advantageous way to listen to the Panny's.  Well, it's there, and we'll test it together.

Yesterday, at about 120 hours, this rig took a decided turn into hi-fi. My wife even commented how 'clear' everything was.  It was, simply, the most enjoyable listening session I've had in my own home.  Ever.  I am sure there is plenty to grouse about eventually, but, overall, it was more enjoyable that previous sessions here.  My last amplification stages were a IRD Purist pre and a AudioSource Amp 3 amp (total list price $1265.00, plus 2 powercords at $150.00 each and a $200.00 IC   ) was bettered by a receiver with a list of $299.00-$399.00.  If THAT ain't progress, nothing is.

This morning (132 hours or so), I'm listening to The Brandenberg Concertos.  It's not THE hardest piece to reproduce, no huge crashing dynamics  - it has always been fairly enjoyable in previous (now I know them as, underpowered) set-ups. Well now, when the bank of violins chime in, they REALLY chime in.  Full power, but not strident, on the JVC.  Violin sounds have always bugged the heck out of me in my previous set-ups, they are increasingly full bodied and flavorful with the JVC directing things. I know how they sound live, but have never faithfully reproduced them even somewhat correctly - until today.

Dmason, owner of a Carver ZR,  has strongly advised me not to fully judge a digital amp/receiver until 3 weeks burn-in gone by (minimum 300 hours)....as I will pass this recommendation your way as another digi-amp virgin.

This is some fun stuff that won't break the bank, fer shore

[Dmason]

happy 4th

this is interesting stuff, sounds like things are excelling, fast. I am really hearing things that tell me to postpone my purchase of LC parts to build the amp. I think I need to know about this "all channel stereo" feature. I might want to try some bi amp speakers with this thing and compare.

This thing may be a little wunderkind product. --I know what you mean about massed strings. When digital amps came along, I started listening to more classical, because now it can sound right. Wait til you hear how it will do woodwinds, oboes in particular. Or harmonically complex Hammond organs, and vintage analogue synthesizers...

glad things are working out so well

[ooheadsoo]

Is it possible to use one of these guys as a poweramp only?  It's a bit out of my planned budget but I'd be game for the extra power it could afford me.  I think someone said that they had tried it with a tube pre.  I would definitely consider it if it's viable.

This thread really piqued my interest when the mention of massed strings came up  I don't particularly care for the way it sounds on my systems

[TheChairGuy]

Guys,

The little JVC is good.  I'm sure I don't have top 1% hearing, or have heard enough gear under he right circumstances to pronounce this a world-class value, but it produces better music that I've heard before in here.

This little guy has peaks and valleys in break-in.  Right after I wrote my last post this morning, about he massed strings, the JVC took on an ugly quality.  An indistinct, cluody sound, but as the night is here, it is coming back into focus.  surely, this fella' needs more break in.  I have Branford / Ellis Marsalis (Loved Ones) on now, and it is a very credible sax and piaono playing.  It doesn't tax any macro dynamics, but the micro-dynamics are very pleasant.  This is music...for $179.

ooheadsoo, Dmason ran a tube pre thru one of the analog imputs (with good results)....no way that I know of to separate out the amp in the JVC; that I can think of, anyway.  But, why would you need to?  It sounds pretty darn good as an integrated, with tuner, and remote...for $179.00.

I've got an LC Audio Exodus coming next week, or so, so we'll run that comparo.  The JVC already smoked my IRD Purist / AudioSource gear...clearly it needs a different level of competition to compare it to.

[ooheadsoo]

Hehe, true, but my preamp cost me too much money (out of my college student sized budget) for me to discount it so easily!  So Dmason basically ran the two preamp sections in series?  Basically with the tube pre as a kind of buffer?  Sounds interesting.  Any more info or impressions would be more than welcome.

[TheChairGuy]

Well, we're at about 166 hours now (barely 4 minutes off in 7 days) and it sounds the same as yesterday..first time it sounded the same day to day.

I should explain what tweeks were used in conjunction with it, just in case one or more of you buy one and find it doesn't work to your satisfaction, or my telling of it.

The JVC RX-ES1SL runs from my (Empirical modded) MSB Gold Link III DAC to it's analog inputs.  I have a $300.00 ZSleeve Ultra on BOTH the digital cable and IC running from DAC to JVC (yes, $600 for 2 friggin' tubes...and I don't smoke reefer anymore   ).  I had the same set-up in evaluating my previous set-up, so apples to apples here, but you probably don't....and tho rediculously expensive they do seem to nullify RFI/EMI in the line.  Perhaps MORE important to eliminate before digital amplification than SS ...just speculating.

We tested it on Brian Cheney/VMPS' big rig a week ago, and indeed they seem to work.  

I used some of the MapleShade silver grease on IC, Power Cord and rca inputs and outputs used on the system.

I use a sheet of ERS cloth on top of the JVC case...seems to have firmed things up a bit.

I have a Highwire PowerWrap 'tuning' the fixed cord and ridding it of front and backwards RFI on the cord. So, it's claimed at least...tho I don't hear it, outright.  But, maybe.

Finally, I have all my gear running thru a BPT 2.0 with upgraded Litz cord, cryo silver wire, hi current filter and internal ZSleeve. Who knows what line grunge ever reaches the JVC due to this 'tweek'.

Lastly, I am running the sub outs to my AudioSource Amp3 that feeds a N.E.A.R. Boom3 passive sub (crossed at 80Hz).  And, because the JVC has only spring clip terminals, I am running 4 pr. 24 ga. CAT6 cable (Home Depot) as speaker cabling as opposed to my $300 LAT International cabling that won't fit in da' holes.

Both of these last two may be 'anti-tweeks', but worth noting...just for your individual edification.

Anyhow, your results will vary due to a lot of factors, but my opinion, right now, is that this is a rediculously fine bargain.  I mean, it produces good music, with remote volume (yee haa) for US$179.00.  Clearly, what we have come to expect in audio is now changed with the advent of digital amplification.

Putamayo's 'Sahara Lounge' sounds damn good right now.  

[djbnh]

That cow site was wicked funny!   Thanks!