[twitch54]

With the Baseball Playoffs drawing near, what is the general Opinion on the greatest single season pitching performance in 'The Modern Era' of baseball.

Those of us old enough can probably comment on any of the names you all can come up with.

For me it was '72 and man called "Lefty", Steve Carlton, won 27 games for one of the worst Phillies teams in History......they won but 59 games. If it were not for that amazing stat I probably would have gone with Pedro's performance for Boston in 2000

[Devil Doc]

He ain't no role model, but Denny Mclain '68 Detroit Tigers 31-6. Last pitcher to accomplish such a feat and only 13 did it in the 20th cent., no one in the 21st. Dizzy Dean was the last before him and he did it in 1934.

Doc

[steve k]

That was the year for me--1968. McClain won 31 games and the Tigers beat the Cardinals with Bob Gibson who set the all time season ERA record of 1.12. I believe the NL Batting Champion that year hit .305.
steve

[steve k]

My memory fails me. The 1968 AL batting champ hit .301--Carl Yazstremski.

steve

[Devil Doc]

My memory fails me. The 1968 AL batting champ hit .301--Carl Yazstremski.

steve

Last triple crown winner too. It was called the year of the pitcher for a reason.

Doc

[steve k]

It was called the year of the pitcher for a reason.

Exactly. So they lowered the mound and brought in the DH to make fans happy. Yawn.

steve

[twitch54]

That was the year for me--1968. McClain won 31 games and the Tigers beat the Cardinals with Bob Gibson who set the all time season ERA record of 1.12. I believe the NL Batting Champion that year hit .305.
steve

Exactly Steve and that's my reason for Carlton, while McClain and Gibson played on the two best times in their respective 'great year' Carlton pitched for the worst !   with an era of 1.9, 27 wins (25 of which were complete games, never duplicated since !), 300 plus SO's he won the tripple crown of pitching. There was NEVER a more dominant slider pitched that his of '72, Stargel said it best of Carlton that year...."Hitting Lefty was like drinking coffe with a fork" !

[jackman]

My vote goes to Pedro in 2000. That was an era of juiced balls and players and he was by far the most dominant pitcher in the game that year.  Heck, the same can be said of 1999!  He was one of my favorites and, although his win loss record wasn't as good as some of the others mentioned, he was almost impossible to hit, walked very few batters and did in a home run friendly park. I believe he set the major league record for fewest hits per nine innings during one of the best offensive seasons of all time.

Honorable mention for me would be Maddox in 95 and Gooden in his second year in the mid 80's before he got tangled up with the disco dust.  Maddux was probably the smartest pitcher I've ever seen.  He was a small guy and not a hard thrower but he was nearly unhittable when he was in his prime, even thiugh he didnt have "electric" stuff or an overpowering fastball. He was also one of the most durable, throwing over 200 innings every year, for quite a few years.   

I don't remember Carlton when he was young. Growing up my favorite pitcher was Loius Tiant!  Even though the Sox lost the 75 series, I loved watching the old guy pitch. He shut out a solid Oakland team that year in the post season and pitched two shut out games against the big red machine in the World Series.  All this from a guy who pitched with a bad back and injured arm.   One of my favorite players, although his regular season in 75 probably doesn't rank with the others in the thread.

[paul canady]

My vote goes to Pedro in 2000. That was an era of juiced balls and players and he was by far the most dominant pitcher in the game that year.  Heck, the same can be said of 1999!  He was one of my favorites and, although his win loss record wasn't as good as some of the others mentioned, he was almost impossible to hit, walked very few batters and did in a home run friendly park. I believe he set the major league record for fewest hits per nine innings during one of the best offensive seasons of all time.

Honorable mention for me would be Maddox in 95 and Gooden in his second year in the mid 80's before he got tangled up with the disco dust.  Maddux was probably the smartest pitcher I've ever seen.  He was a small guy and not a hard thrower but he was nearly unhittable when he was in his prime, even thiugh he didnt have "electric" stuff or an overpowering fastball. He was also one of the most durable, throwing over 200 innings every year, for quite a few years.   

I don't remember Carlton when he was young. Growing up my favorite pitcher was Loius Tiant!  Even though the Sox lost the 75 series, I loved watching the old guy pitch. He shut out a solid Oakland team that year in the post season and pitched two shut out games against the big red machine in the World Series.  All this from a guy who pitched with a bad back and injured arm.   One of my favorite players, although his regular season in 75 probably doesn't rank with the others in the thread.

      Played against Greg and his brother Mike in high school. Greg was pretty small at the time and Mike was getting the attention. College scouts were not that interested in Greg because of his size and lack of velocity. He was throwing low 80's as a senior but could make you hit the ball where he wanted you to hit it most of the time. He was no Charlie Kerfeld who stood 6'6" and threw 95mph plus which was tops in Nevada in that era of the early to mid 1980's.
   I wasn't to surprised when Greg was drafted becasue he already had great control and just needed a little more zip at times without a change in delivery. Once he reached that goal the rest is history.
   I went on to play in Fresno with another pitcher named Mark Gardner (SF) who reminded me of Maddux but with some velocity. Greg however developed the pinpoint accuracy and craft that doesn't come around very often. The slightest change a batter would make at the plate and he would notice which made him pitch a little different than what the batter was expecting. Smart pitcher is an understatement!
   Greatest pitching season ever? There are a bunch but I can say without a doubt I would much rather face Greg Maddux than Pedro back in their best days. I think I would be able to put the bat on the ball with Greg but Pedro is a swing and a prayer even when you know what is coming. Same with the Ryan express in the early 80's No Thanks!

[medium jim]

The two greatest seasons belong to Sandy Koufax 1963 25-5 1.88era and Bob Gibson in 1968 22-9 with and minuscule era of 1.12!

None better IMHO

Jim

[jackman]

I've given this more thought and it's tough one! 

It's difficult to make an apples to apples comparison because, as stated previously, baseball was more of a pitchers' league from 1963-1968.  Not only did they lower the mound, I believe they reduced the strike zone after '69, giving a clear (and intentional) advantage to the hitters.  I remember reading something about this a long time ago, but Yaz had to go on a hot streak just to get his batting average over .300 in '68.  In '68, the top two hitters batted .335 and .332, and the 30th best hitter batted .280.  As a comparison, in 2000, when Pedro finished with a 1.74 ERA, the two top hitters hit .372 and the 30th best hitter batted .320. 

Also, there was no enforced height standard for mounds prior to '69.  Per Wikipedia,  "From 1903 through 1968, this height limit was set at 15 inches, but was often slightly higher, sometimes as high as 20 inches (50.8 cm), especially for teams that emphasized pitching, such as the Los Angeles Dodgers, who were reputed to have the highest mound in the majors."  That was a huge advantage for pitchers...and there was NO DH to contend with in the AL! 

This is not to take anything away from one of the true greats of baseball, Sandy Koufax.  His numbers were superhuman.  In his last two years, '65 and '66, he finished 26-8 and 27-9 and had 27 complete games BOTH years.  He had 54 complete games his last two years in the league!  As a reference, Justin Verlander, last year's Cy Young winner has 20 complete games total...in 8 years! 

In addition, in the modern era many new ballparks were made more home run "friendly" with shorter fences, balls were "juiced" and chemistry helped create monsters like Bonds, Sosa, McGuire and little guys who never more than a couple homers were jacking 20 or more.  IMHO, they almost ruined a great game by giving the hitters too many advantages and turning a blind eye to rampant juicing. 

Still, if we are just looking at stats, and if we define the "modern era" as 50's through today, it's hard to not pick Koufax and Gibson.  Although I would have loved to have seen a young Randy Johnson pitch from a 20 inch mound!  That would be a sight!

 

[medium jim]

The mound was lowered from 15" to 10".  I picked Sandy's 1963 season over his last 2 years as he was more dominant in 1963.  What the record doesn't show is his World Series record that year against the Yankee's who were heavily favored over the Dodgers. 

Sandy won games one and four in the sweep of the Yankees. He completed both games, tossed 23 strikeouts and only allow 3 runs, one a massive Home Run at Dodger Stadium by Mickey Mantle.

He won the Cy Young as well as the pitching triple crown.  Add in his series wins and he was 27-5.  Simply put Sandy had one of the greatest seasons of all-time in 1963.  Oh yeah, he tossed his first no-no as well in 63.

There was no more dominant pitcher than Sandy Koufax from 1963-1966 and doubt that lowering the mound would have affected him all that much.  While he was known for his blazing fastball, his curve was devastating.

Jim

[jackman]

Sandy Koufax was the most dominant pitcher in his era, no doubt.  His season in '63 was statistically, arguably, the best ever, and his '65 and '66 seasons are among the best anyone has ever achieved.  It's sad he only pitched until he was 30 years old (I believe) because he was so dominant. 

Although he pitched in the era known as the "Pitchers Era", other pitchers who pitched with similar advantages (larger strike zone, elevated mound) were unable to match his numbers.  I guess we will never know how he would have done on a lower mound, but it's safe to assume he would have been better than the pitchers below him.  I am not sure how you can say the higher mound (Dodger Stadium's mound was rumored to be 20 inches elevation) did not help his performance, but since he did not pitch with the lower mound, I can't say for sure you are wrong...although a higher mound would have helped his fastball and curveball.   A higher mound gave the pitcher more leverage and allowed a pitcher to put more downward velocity on the ball, making it harder for batters to make solid contact.  A high mound helped ALL pitchers. 

Sandy DID benefit from pitching in a VERY pitcher friendly ballpark.  Between '62-'66, his ERA in Dodger Stadium was 1.32 and his away ERA was 2.57, a 1.25 differential!  The ERA home/away differential for all pitchers during that period was only .36 (see attached).  If you see the attached, Sandy was still great (there is no denying that) but his numbers really benefitted from pitching in a huge park, where he was practically unhittable.  I'm a huge fan and don't disagree that he's one of the greatest of all time, but the differential between him and the next couple greats might not be as great as I once thought.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2006/5/5/12349/01432

[djmckaytx]

Hmm...can't believe no one has mentioned Dwight Gooden in 1985.  Like Denny McLain, definitely not a role model.  But along with Carlton and Gibson he was as dominating a pitcher as there was that year.

[jackman]

I mentioned Gooden's season but couldn't remember if it was 85 or 86.  Gooden was amazing, one of the best I have ever seen and I wonder how much better he would have been if he stayed away from drugs.  He was the most dominant young pitcher I have ever seen. 

If I could pick one pitcher in his prime, for one season, it would be hard to not pick Pedro Martinez circa 2000.  He dominated during the most offense friendly period in history, in a hitter friendly ballpark.  That guy's performance during the 2000 season still amazes me. 

Lastly, it's impossible for me to judge pitchers from before the mid 70's because I had no exposure to the greats from a previous era.  Unfortunately the ones I do remember as a kid, mostly played for other teams (except Maddox, Lamar Hoyt and Bruce Sutter).   I wish I could have seen Koufax, Gibson and Marichall when they were playing. 

[ltr317]

I mentioned Gooden's season but couldn't remember if it was 85 or 86.  Gooden was amazing, one of the best I have ever seen and I wonder how much better he would have been if he stayed away from drugs.  He was the most dominant young pitcher I have ever seen. 

It was 1985, Gooden's second season with the Mets when he went 24 and 4 with a 1.53 era.  When the Mets won the World Series in 1986 all Mets starters had winning records during the regular season, and I think it was the best rotation in team history.  To wit: Bobby Ojeda 18-5, Dwight Gooden 17-6, Sid Fernandez (El Sid) 16-6, Ron Darling (Mr. Yalie) 15-6 and Rick Aguilera 10-7.  The combined won/lost record was a terrific 76-30.  I went to quite a few home games that year. 

[medium jim]

I knew this was going to get contentious and I was right.  Everyone's choices are right and to debate someone's opinion is absurd.  Moreover, there were no parameters to the question. Dodger stadium had the same mound for the visitors and same distances to the fences.

I grew up watching the Dodgers so maybe I'm a bit prejudiced.  To me no other pitcher had the year Sandy had in 1963.  One of the biggest mistakes the Dodgers made was not letting Pedro Martinez become a starter as they thought he was too small to endure the rigors. Pedro had the heart of gold and his 1999/2000 seasons are a testament to that.

Carlton's 72 season might have been the best the more I think about it.  With a shirty team he won almost half their games. What unbelievable slider he possessed.  I remember reading how he would try to drive his left arm as far as he could into a barrel of rice as his strength training.  Pretty serious stuff, just try it!

Jim

[twitch54]

I knew this was going to get contentious and I was right.  Everyone's choices are right and to debate someone's opinion is absurd.  Moreover, there were no parameters to the question.

Jim I suspect when I asked it it would be both subjective and oblective , with that being said, Bob James the acknowledged 'Stat' professor of baseball admitted that Carltons wins as a percentage of the teams total wins (was and still is something that has NEVER been duplicated) is a stat that has very measurable weight.

To me no other pitcher had the year Sandy had in 1963.  One of the biggest mistakes the Dodgers made was not letting Pedro Martinez become a starter as they thought he was too small to endure the rigors. Pedro had the heart of gold and his 1999/2000 seasons are a testament to that.

agreed and to that it's safe to say there has never been two better back-to-back season pitchers than Pedro (1999, 2000) and Sandy (1965, 1966), that's pretty much an accepted fact.

Carlton's 72 season might have been the best the more I think about it.  With a shirty team he won almost half their games. What unbelievable slider he possessed.  I remember reading how he would try to drive his left arm as far as he could into a barrel of rice as his strength training.  Pretty serious stuff, just try it!

Exactly Jim, and besides his 30 complete games he hit .197 and drove in 8 runs to help his own cause !

You know one other pitcher no one has brought up yet was 'lefty Grove', but the fact that he pitched in an era that was seperated from the black ball players negates some of his greatness, regardless he was dominant !

[medium jim]

Twitch:

To be honest, there is no such thing as the greatest season.  Numbers/Stats are 2 dimensional and while they give a great reference point, there are too many intangibles that come into play. Arguments can be made for each and every pitcher's great year named. You could toss into the hat Randy Johnson, Tom Seaver, Don Drysdale, Nolan Ryan and I haven't even mentioned the relievers.

Jim

[twitch54]

To be honest, there is no such thing as the greatest season.

perhaps, but in the history of the game there but a handfull that trully qualify.

Numbers/Stats are 2 dimensional and while they give a great reference point, there are too many intangibles that come into play

first and foremost of which is ones 'emotional bias'.....thus the need for stats !

I haven't even mentioned the relievers.

completely different category than 'starters'

Jim
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